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Typing the US and England

Xander

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Mod note: Split from Victor's Two Perfect Addictions thread.

Seeing as this is becoming a question of responsibilities I'll change my tac.

America places the responsibility on the speaker more than the listener.
England place the responsibility on the listener more than the speaker.

E vs I.

The reality is though that the responsibility is for both people to try to elevate the communication. Another matter of reality is that being nice can dilute the point and I've found INTJs the best for making a poignant point.

What's people's beef anyway? Victor says that the MBTI is a load of whoey and you're kidding yourself if you believe in it. He's right to a certain point. If you, however, take that factual statement and decide to take it as a judgement on you as a person then is Victor being hurtful or are you just deciding to make it personal? To me it's not clear cut.

Anyhow who wants a world filled with everyone acting courteously and nice all the time. Yes there are degrees but in essence it's essential to progress.

If you like House then quit complaining when he comes to the forum for a stay ;)

Oh and that's not to say that I encourage "bad" behaviour, just that I discourage the whole 'supposed to' thinking.

Besides isn't the MBTI about communication? If you're a true believer then you'll see the playfulness behind the stony demeanour.
 
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Dom

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America places the responsibility on the speaker more than the listener.
England place the responsibility on the listener more than the speaker.

E vs I.

How do you figure that?

just curious...
 

Xander

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How do you figure that?

just curious...
What that extroverts talk and introverts listen or America is more extroverted than England?

The latter I consider obvious, the former is more looking at things like INFP versus ENFP or ENTP versus INTP or ENFJ versus INFJ. Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

(Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)
Why do you link MBTI and therapy?

And why are both to be considered narcissistic?

I've never considered that striving for self-actualistion may be considered narcissistic...

Mind you if it is, then there is very little that isn't narcissistic...
Everything is about you isn't it Dom?

All of life is self referential. That makes Victor's statement both true and redundant. A murky but beautiful symmetry.
Want a Tic-Tac?
If I gave you edam you'd turn it into emmental wouldn't you.

:rolleyes:
Yes. Explain.
I have.
(Although I'm guessing you're saying it is "E" for the speaker to tailor things to fit a bulk crowd, and "I" for the solitary listener to subjectively pull info inside and evaluate it there, in relation to themselves. E's might try to take more responsibility for the listeners' reactions, I's are less inclined. I think that's quite a bit simplistic, although interesting.)
Odd how you go straight for the responsibilities of when speaking...

Closet extrovert :tongue10:

It's a big step from there to "things about which people write books" being evidence for the invalidity of the subject matter.
Ah this reminds me of a phrase relayed to me "the rest is intuitively obvious". It's a false statement as nothing intuitive is truly obvious (depending on how you define obvious).
 

Totenkindly

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If I gave you edam you'd turn it into emmental wouldn't you.

"Silent E" was my hero growing up -- he turned cubs into cubes and tubs into tubes and finals into finales.

But usually I'm a bit even more twisty. ;)

Odd how you go straight for the responsibilities of when speaking...
Closet extrovert :tongue10:

Oh, I should infract you SO bad for that. :smile:

Actually, I think it's cuz of my crappy past where I was dependent on adults who would flip out if I said the wrong thing. (Not safe, nope.) I couldn't afford to leave the responsibility of interpretation up to the listener. :(

Been easing up on that, though. So if you don't understand what I'm saying right now, it's your own damned fault.

Ah this reminds me of a phrase relayed to me "the rest is intuitively obvious". It's a false statement as nothing intuitive is truly obvious (depending on how you define obvious).

That was so obviously intuitive.
(still want that tic-tac?)
 

Gen

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What that extroverts talk and introverts listen or America is more extroverted than England?

The latter I consider obvious,
I haven't found that to be true. There are some very introverted places in America you know. Even big ones. I found DC to seem kind of introverted. I found the whole place rather ISTJish. :lol:

But, I've never understood how you can assign a type at all to an entire country. It doesn't make sense. It only depends on your personal, subjective opinion and experience with that country, which can be entirely different from someone elses. I just think its a futile exercise.

the former is more looking at things like INFP versus ENFP or ENTP versus INTP or ENFJ versus INFJ. Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

(Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)

I haven't found this to be true at all either. What I have found is that N's tend to listen and get involved in personal discussion way more intimately than S's. S's like some in my family and my room mates, they tend to stay on the surface of issues rather than getting at the heart of things. You know, like disecting the concept that underlines the issues; that's N stuff. :)
 

Dom

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What that extroverts talk and introverts listen or America is more extroverted than England?

The latter I consider obvious, the former is more looking at things like INFP versus ENFP or ENTP versus INTP or ENFJ versus INFJ. Sure extroverts listen and do pay attention but there's something about an introvert listening which can make you feel like you're the only person in existance besides them.

To re-analogy, introverts drink deep.. extroverts sample and share.

(Note I am an introvert yes but look at whom I chose as friends.. I find both equal in terms of advice... I just find introverts listen a little harder and consider a little longer.)

Well having introverted a bit before responding, and thus deciding not to bite on what has been bitten on so often before, I'll talk about some of the other bits.

I do not know if it is fair to say it is obvious that america is more extrovert than Britain, and then imply that the difference is obvious. Why do you think america is more extroverted? Personally I feel she is dangerously intoverted and always has been, an introverted SJ, certain that her way is right, and not prepared to listen to the wider international community or consider that other concepts on life have as much right to co-exist in the world as theirs.

Where as Britain has always been much more pluarlistic in her approach internationally, and listened or understood others rights to exist, hence why she traditionally had no problems keeping ideology and policy sepperate. I.E extroverted...

just an alternative idea...
Everything is about you isn't it Dom?

All of life is self referential. That makes Victor's statement both true and redundant. A murky but beautiful symmetry.

no it isn't or I'd be able to make personal decision's much more swiftly and easily (though you could frame this as really still being about me as I'm avoiding feeling guilty but then we are headed into a cyclic disscussion that we were so famous for on intpc years ago!)
 

Xander

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I haven't found that to be true. There are some very introverted places in America you know. Even big ones. I found DC to seem kind of introverted. I found the whole place rather ISTJish. :lol:

But, I've never understood how you can assign a type at all to an entire country. It doesn't make sense. It only depends on your personal, subjective opinion and experience with that country, which can be entirely different from someone elses. I just think its a futile exercise.
A couple of defining features which I think underline the difference.

Sport.
The NFL is essentially one league versus the micro managed football leagues, cups and tournaments.

"Issues".
England's motto is stiff upper lip (ie suck it up and don't complain), the USA has made counselling and therapy part of it's mantra.

Legalities.
In England it would be considered premature to go into legal proceedings as quickly as it is done in America.

International relations.
America is well known for telling others what they should do where as England is more backwards about coming forwards. Our "voice" is quieter.

Interpersonal relations.
American's are known over here for being loud and brash which is often the perception of an extrovert from an introverts eyes.

It's not really supposed to be "all American's are extroverts" but more that most American's will be more familiar with extroverts than introverts. Hell just look at all the pazzaz that has to be included with every event from opening a shop to voting in a president. Do you see similar things in the UK? Not very often. Even the Queen is practically silent for 99% of the time. The tourist attraction she represents is basically people flocking to look at where she stays and watching the automatons in front of the palace!
I haven't found this to be true at all either. What I have found is that N's tend to listen and get involved in personal discussion way more intimately than S's. S's like some in my family and my room mates, they tend to stay on the surface of issues rather than getting at the heart of things. You know, like disecting the concept that underlines the issues; that's N stuff. :)
N's understand you easier, that's not really the same thing. The most attentive listener I know is an INFP. He just listens and chips in when you leave him room to. My sister (one of those famed ENFJ listeners) won't necessarily wait for you to stop and once she's going you have to fight to get back to her listening. I see that as the introvert is the better listener even if my sister interprets better than he does.
Well having introverted a bit before responding, and thus deciding not to bite on what has been bitten on so often before, I'll talk about some of the other bits.
Your nose will end up crooked you know ;)
I do not know if it is fair to say it is obvious that america is more extrovert than Britain, and then imply that the difference is obvious. Why do you think america is more extroverted? Personally I feel she is dangerously intoverted and always has been, an introverted SJ, certain that her way is right, and not prepared to listen to the wider international community or consider that other concepts on life have as much right to co-exist in the world as theirs.
And England isn't self righteous in the same vein? You must be joking! How long does it take us to accept a new "fad"?

We still have thousands of engineers who think that computers are imprecise and "hinky"!!
Where as Britain has always been much more pluarlistic in her approach internationally, and listened or understood others rights to exist, hence why she traditionally had no problems keeping ideology and policy sepperate. I.E extroverted...
What you mean is less forceful. We sit there and declare we disagree but agree to do nothing about it. Combine that with the extreme bureaucracy and what do you get as a type?
just an alternative idea...
Accepted. Now I'm going to be rethinking this for days.
no it isn't or I'd be able to make personal decision's much more swiftly and easily (though you could frame this as really still being about me as I'm avoiding feeling guilty but then we are headed into a cyclic disscussion that we were so famous for on intpc years ago!)
It was a joke on the human condition old boy.

Chill, I'm not having a go.
 

Dom

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And England isn't self righteous in the same vein? You must be joking! How long does it take us to accept a new "fad"?

We still have thousands of engineers who think that computers are imprecise and "hinky"!!
Hey, don't project the problems your particular workign environment embodies on to the whole country!!! I am British I do not think computers are imprecise or "hinky" (and I mean that even though I have no idea what "hinky" means lol) so that can't be the whole national persona..

What you mean is less forceful. We sit there and declare we disagree but agree to do nothing about it. Combine that with the extreme bureaucracy and what do you get as a type?

Nope I really didn't mean forceful at all, we managed to precide over the largest empire the world has ever seen, i would definately consider that this was only possible through being forceful, we just didn't insist that these areas become mini britain's like the french did their's or Amercia does these days

Accepted. Now I'm going to be rethinking this for days.

Hehe all i wanted was to through an alternative out there!
 

htb

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Are you sure, Xander?

A session in the House of Commons is sprightly and inspiring.

A session in the House of Representatives is turgid, boring and -- in theory at least -- damaging to incumbency.
 

Xander

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Are you sure, Xander?

A session in the House of Commons is sprightly and inspiring.

A session in the House of Representatives is turgid, boring and -- in theory at least -- damaging to incumbency.
Okay sprightly as in a bunch of old men moving faster than necessary to catch a stationary object?

Forgive me, I'm still reeling from the use of the word 'inspiring' in relation to the house of commons. Aside from inspiring me to riot I see little inspiration there but I'll admit perhaps that's just me.

Right, as to your query I think the answer lies within the behaviour common to ISTJs and ESTJs.

More obviously there are the styles of dress, the american power suit is something I'd think was more of an appeal to others that they are a mover and a shaker... sort of a "giz a job, I'm ded gud" as opposed to the more english style where everyone is wearing some kind of traditional suit but then where they get personal choice (ie the shirt and tie) you see some of the most god awful combinations.. that'd I'd read as more ISTJ (though I may be biased by my fashion unconscious ISTJ buddy).

America seems to have more hero worship in politics from my experience of them with the pres being almost deified (even if he's a certifiable idiot... *ahem*) where as our PM is most often shot to pieces by the opposition and his/her own party.

I believe there are also more remarks about how competitive the nation is as a whole being bandied about in the US as opposed to the UK.

Of course all of these little notes are quite subjective.. but there again is it not the same situation when typing an individual?

Basically if you look at what people expect from an American and an Englishman the expectations seem to match up closest to the ESTJ and ISTJ types respectively.

One thing that this is making me wonder is whether ESTJs object to their type this much..
 

htb

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Forgive me, I'm still reeling from the use of the word 'inspiring' in relation to the house of commons. Aside from inspiring me to riot I see little inspiration there but I'll admit perhaps that's just me.
Ah, you're conflating ideological content with manner of delivery.

I find English policies, to euphemize, generally not to my liking. But the immediate dialectical rigor demanded by MPs is more exciting -- American committee hearings play out like bagpipes, partisan declamations that follow a persistent, uniphonous drone -- and not at all forgiving of reticence. That seems a high valuation of social extroversion.

with the pres being almost deified
This is demonstrably not true. Look at opinion polls, then political cartoons, then entertainers, then personally question a sampling of members of the corresponding party. You've either internalized a characterization of America (which might mean introversion, in which case you're right) or have gotten your sense of our country from the German press (in which case I'm right). Certainly, your prime minister defends his policies just meters away from scoffing backbenchers, but then, he is not an autonomous executive.

In America, there are much more complex dynamics between typical business and social types -- and more places in which these interactions occur than those receiving the most international attention. I nod to the theory you're trying to establish, but the UK and US are in too many ways divergent. Your lot may be provincial; but we're varied across the continent ourselves.
 

Eric B

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I too have heard that the "model" type of America is ESTJ.
And that would make sense. It's very "In Charge" (Interaction Style); aggressive, critical. Yet it is also "Guardian" of its structures.
Enneagram theeorists say it is type 3-ish. That would seem to be between In Charge and Get Things Going; reflecting our mix of seriousness and hedonism.

Britain, I don't know. It seems a bit less aggressive, but I'm not sure.
 

Totenkindly

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The Three-ish thing doesn't sound too far off.

But ESTJ? Maybe 50 years ago. And in high-profile business, yes. But the last 20 years of so, there's been such an influx of foreign lifestyle/culture (especially South American flavor) that I've been noting a large shift culturally towards SP. Your Gen X / Gen Y's are decisively NOT ESTJ -- especially for Gen Y, there's little planning for the future and control over events, it's all about flexing and riding things out and experiencing the full of life.

Wait until the Boomers die off and many more Gen Y's hit their 30's and 40's, and it'll be much more noticeable.
 

Eric B

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Yeah; I imagine it's changing, for a less structure-focused approach.
Much of the "culture war" is the ESTJ old order "guarding" their institutions.
I have often wondered what will happen to business and politics when Gen.X/Y reaches the upper levels of management.
 

Totenkindly

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Yeah; I imagine it's changing, for a less structure-focused approach. Much of the "culture war" is the ESTJ old order "guarding" their institutions.

Mmm hmmm.

I have often wondered what will happen to business and politics when Gen.X/Y reaches the upper levels of management.

Thought of it too. And it scares me. :(
(as much as I didn't like rigid SJ thinking.)
 

Xander

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Wow I can post again!!!

Jennifer,
I do agree that on the smaller scales of analysis America is quite SP and in some arenas quite NT even! However the overall trend of the country is more congruent with the ESTJ type.

Take, for example, the city planning. Who but an ESTJ would design everywhere on a grid system with a "block" being the measurement of everything? The way in which roundabouts are a confusing thing because it means you have to negotiate other road users or how you can turn right when the lights are on red (that may seem intuitive but realistically any decent intuitive person would see that it'd be more helpful to general road use to have a right turn light in addition to the other three). How about the idea of northern connecting roads where to go north you have to travel south to pick up the northern road. An intuitive person would travel north believing that to go north you..err... go north. It'd have to be some kind of dictatorial type.

I believe that on inspection both styles of city, whether UK or US are STJ, that I'd reckon is in little doubt. The UK does have more history to incorperate, hence how the US can be so mapped out and done systematically. Of course if the system had been done from the start in a more intuitive fashion then the road system shouldn't need this idea of connecting roads and you'd see more ring formations around the city (kind of implemented in the UK but done as and when).

Anyhow, what part of ESTJ is not liked?
E - Anyone that would persist in arguing that America is not extroverted is ignoring the huge celebrations of pretty much everything. Plus there's the whole "new york minute" phenomenon.

S - Most countries scream S at me due to the micro management of things. Intuitive countries seem to move more as one than the S countries, though specific examples that I'm certain of escape me right now.

T - There could be the argument that the US is F, god knows there's enough emotional stuff coming out of it to drown masses, however I think that the minumum wage being what it is (ie absolute s##) and the huge problem of people below the poverty line kinda says it's less empathic and more 'target' orientated.

J - There's absolutely no doubt in my mind regarding this facet. Presidents apparently have to be spotless, christian, family men and no deviation from these principles will be tolerated. In fact in many ways tolerance is more of a luxoury than a common thing from what I've seen. That'd I'd see more as an indication of J than P in that the rules are clear and well defined with less room for deviance.

Oh and crowning glory of ESTJ... the war on terror. The whole crisis reaction where everyone and everything must now come under close scrutiny, despite them knowing that it can't stop determined terrorists, is very ESTJ. That much I am VERY familiar with in my job (more's the pitty). If the same had happened over here there'd be strong statements made and strong measures discussed but I very much doubt that any one would make sweeping changes in the manner in which the US has. That's not to say that action was bad but the actual actions taken have been misguided in several instances and overall only serve to look like the place is secure where as it's just as open as it always was.
 

Xander

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Ah, you're conflating ideological content with manner of delivery.

I find English policies, to euphemize, generally not to my liking. But the immediate dialectical rigor demanded by MPs is more exciting -- American committee hearings play out like bagpipes, partisan declamations that follow a persistent, uniphonous drone -- and not at all forgiving of reticence. That seems a high valuation of social extroversion.
This I would concurr. UK politics is less about acceptance and more about being right. They are prepared to argue and will fight back properly... mind you isn't that more about the individuals taking part than the country in general?
This is demonstrably not true. Look at opinion polls, then political cartoons, then entertainers, then personally question a sampling of members of the corresponding party. You've either internalized a characterization of America (which might mean introversion, in which case you're right) or have gotten your sense of our country from the German press (in which case I'm right). Certainly, your prime minister defends his policies just meters away from scoffing backbenchers, but then, he is not an autonomous executive.

In America, there are much more complex dynamics between typical business and social types -- and more places in which these interactions occur than those receiving the most international attention. I nod to the theory you're trying to establish, but the UK and US are in too many ways divergent. Your lot may be provincial; but we're varied across the continent ourselves.
I beg to differ, it is the states which is provincial in that almost all opinions are based on self referential measures. The US is the measure by which all others are to be judged. I'm sorry but the US has more of a jingoistic attitude than any other nation I can think of.

As for the president being subjected to question and derision, I thought that all famous actors over there had to suffer the whims of the press?

The whole thing about the US assuming it is correct in it's approach to life whilst there are so many who suffer under their rules and the manner in which other's are told that they are wrong or will conform. That whole attitude says ESTJ to me.

Oh and I guess that right about now it will be assumed that I'm anti-american... all I'll say is that would be an incorrect assumption.
 

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Oh and I guess that right about now it will be assumed that I'm anti-american... all I'll say is that would be an incorrect assumption.

Xander loves America! You should wear a t-shirt.

It's just sort of amusing to have someone in England tell me (who has lived in the States all my life) what my country is like.

(htb's right in that the US is so large, and with so much "importing" over the years -- influx of other cultural attitudes -- that we don't even have consistent approaches from locale to locale. England is much smaller geographically.)

I think the ESTJ qualities you're seeing are remnants from 50 years ago. That's where a lot of the modernist, grid-style thinking came from. If you look at modern design and architecture, it's different. Maybe you miss that, because you're not watching the change happen over the years.

(btw, you don't HAVE to be right. It wasn't a bad supposition, I just don't think it fits the data.)
 

Xander

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Xander loves America! You should wear a t-shirt.

It's just sort of amusing to have someone in England tell me (who has lived in the States all my life) what my country is like.

(htb's right in that the US is so large, and with so much "importing" over the years -- influx of other cultural attitudes -- that we don't even have consistent approaches from locale to locale. England is much smaller geographically.)

I think the ESTJ qualities you're seeing are remnants from 50 years ago. That's where a lot of the modernist, grid-style thinking came from. If you look at modern design and architecture, it's different. Maybe you miss that, because you're not watching the change happen over the years.

(btw, you don't HAVE to be right. It wasn't a bad supposition, I just don't think it fits the data.)
Don't have to be.... :thinking: .... stupid nonsense.. of course I do... err ... am.

I do understand that living there may give a totally different perspective to things but also being too close to a subject (be it person or country) would also warp the perspective. In fact I have been warned about trying to type people I know well as I may see more of the shadow and get it all wrong.

As for the diversity, I think the Australian president said it best when he basically told all imigrants that it was this way before you got here, you wanted to move here so please respect that it will, by and large, stay the same.

You may well be right that I am typing from assumption and not observation, I may well alter my opinion at some later point but at present I see no real quantity of evidence to type the US as anything other than ESTJ.
 
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