How to handle ENFP volatility/unpredictability

[Starry]

Oh yeah. Plane has not left the tarmac! Not in feelings but interest.

She is no where near invested but has mild feeling. But you see he is? Not in terms of committment but "what could be" (Ne/Fe) He is very interested. Doesn't have strong feelings.

He's fast forwarding. Really, his heart is ahead of his emotions and doesn't realize it yet. But her feelings are ahead of her heart.

Yes.

(((The reason I'm responding here instead of merely "liking" is because I think what you are doing is so cool...and am almost surprised I've never seen anyone do this before...and wish people would do this more often. I also wish I could go back in time and be provided an interpreter for when I first arrived and was lead off course a million times for not having INFJ translated for me. So cool of you MDP)))

And *five sounds* fuck yah

 

[the state i am in]

i've noticed 7w6 tend to have difficulty staying relaxed and trusting of themselves especially under intense expectations or conflict. they also have difficulty saying no and hate feeling like a buzzkill. meanwhile, without a bit of effort, they don't have a lot of filter (so worry about offending) and struggle to especially trust their predictions of what is likely to happen; compounded for enfps who are generally way more open-ended and fluxy than say esfps, because they can get caught in other perspectives further away from theirs and forget how to really center and anchor in the most important ones that will ultimately serve their deepest selves.

i think w 7w6s, they're often rushed by people who take advantage of their hope to be positive and generous and flexible, to be kind of good vibes people, so they might be wary that their voices aren't heard and respected. this is especially difficult if they have habits of not really discerning what their actual needs are and setting real boundaries with respect to those, rather than pretending that because they can be flexible and shift perspective, needs-wise, they have none.

if you actually wanna be good for them, you have to respect, support, and reinforce not a decision but a process of making one, helping them be patient with themselves and their process of not only exploring but of integrating themselves enough to really find their own sense of aim, even if, because it's so process oriented, it's a rather fluid one. just trusting the process of looking to see what's really there, and also appreciating the way in which we bring ourselves to and thru that based on the weight of how much we care rather than just how much we are in control. when in an accepting and allowing space and feeling authentically heard, they are so much more free to do their best for you/others, too, in whatever ways truly make sense.

 

[EcK]

put xanax in their water supply

 

[chubber]

She sounds like my ex INFP.

 

[EG_j]

First, thanks to everyone! I really appreciate your advice.

Some additional information:

I just became pretty insecure when she said she didn't know if she wanted to have a relationship because there is so much changing in her life right now (Begin of study, moving, etc).
I guess my insecurity stems from my experience so far… which is about 100% negative.
This is probably also the reason why I try to "rush it" every time.
But I have to understand that it's a marathon rather than a sprint, and that I have to block my bad memories.

Oh man. You are in over your head.

I know. That used to be my problem and right now I seem to be falling into old patterns.
Well, at least I notice it and can counteract.

First question to you: What do you want?
Relationship? Sex? Sex that leads to a relationship? First answer that. Or at least, figure out where your line is. Would you be hurt if she didn't want more than a physical relationship?

I'd love to be in a relationship with her. Until now, I didn't say this to her because I didn't want to scare her away. And her saying "I don't know if I want a relationship" did not help as well. "friendship plus" etc aren't really my thing.

Often when the emotions are uncertain then certainty from an outside source can lead to a sense of reassurance. In other words, make her melt

That's what I try to do… Not my area of expertise though. She also mentioned that she is not that romantic, so… Does anyone have an idea how to make a rather unromantic ENFP melt?

It sounded to me that she had a large supply of male friends...and yet singled him out. If it was only for sex though she wouldn't have done the whole "let's take it slow" she would have slept with him immediately. The whole "let's bake apple pies" I took as trying to engage in a wholesome getting to know you activity...which I myself couldn't imagine putting together for a guy friend...like a guy friend I would be like...lets get the hell out of here and do something interesting because I don't need to carefully get to know you assessing my desire to bolt every five minutes.

That's true, too. At least that would be logical, but then I think this (sadly) isn't about logic at all.
She just sends opposing signals (she admitted it herself more or less) and I don't really know where I stand.

Based on my experience with INTPs, there's a harshness often times with Ti that puts me on guard. But also the Ne connection with introverted energy is very attractive.

Well, when I'm around her, I am as cute as I can get… I mentioned my "dark cynic side" to her though, but she admitted to have one as well (as most people probably have).

She probably just wants to get to know you with no pressure. It's up to you if you want to get to know her without expectations as well. If not, it sounds like she's trying to give you the space to say so.

Actually this was what I wanted to do. She was the one starting "the talk", so it just left me confused.

I am with you though that I think he probably blew it.

That's what I'm afraid of, too.

What would be a proper reaction? I mean, how would you (as ENFP) react to something like "On sunday I was a little shorttaken. I know I didn't express myself clearly and behaved strange and I'm sorry about it.
The truth is, I could imagine a relationship with you very well and I would give you all the time you need.
How about this: We continue getting to know each other, have a good time and see what develops."

Any further ideas/suggestions?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

First, thanks to everyone! I really appreciate your advice.

Some additional information:

I just became pretty insecure when she said she didn't know if she wanted to have a relationship because there is so much changing in her life right now (Begin of study, moving, etc).
I guess my insecurity stems from my experience so far… which is about 100% negative.
This is probably also the reason why I try to "rush it" every time.
But I have to understand that it's a marathon rather than a sprint, and that I have to block my bad memories.

I know. That used to be my problem and right now I seem to be falling into old patterns.
Well, at least I notice it and can counteract.

This is great. Old patterns are good when noticed. The thing I notice about INTP's and some SJ's, that I think is really great is that they often can separate out their emotions and compartmentalize where to place them, analyze patterns, then put them back together. They dissect themselves.

Sometimes, the cohesion putting things back together isn't....spot on though. (Ti) It lacks a lot of extroverted perspective (Fe) and if one doesn't put more analysis on the weak parts, it's hard to change the pattern unless one is relentless about it because you have to keep re-assessing and you will fall into the same predicaments. Often skipping the steps where they figure out *what they want* rather than *what they should do next*

I'd love to be in a relationship with her. Until now, I didn't say this to her because I didn't want to scare her away. And her saying "I don't know if I want a relationship" did not help as well. "friendship plus" etc aren't really my thing.

This is what I picked up from your original post. That you wanted to date toward something more happening.

That's true, too. At least that would be logical, but then I think this (sadly) isn't about logic at all.
She just sends opposing signals (she admitted it herself more or less) and I don't really know where I stand.

Now the ENFP's may not like what I'm going to say a bit later on and they will explain their POV and thought processes but the opposing signals thing? It isn't good. When someone gives you mixed signals it means they have mixed feelings. Simple as that.

My next question to you is what are you willing to do here? Couple options:

Put her on the back burner, remain in communication, take things very relaxed but also open yourself up to other dating prospects. (This would be my M.O. as I don't think this girl is someone to invest a lot of time into as per the situation you describe. I don't think what you want and what she wants are aligning at the moment.)

If you aren't sort of built that way and focus on one interest at a time? Then you have to figure out if this is worth it to invest your energy into someone who "isn't sure" what direction they want to go in.

---

From my experience, that Ne/Fi thing? It takes a bit of maturity before ENFP's are able to harness their Fi into specific pursuits/goals/desires.

The Ne aspect just is too tempting. Everything is bright and shiny and they want the experiences and more sensitive Fe inferiors (or strong T types) can be easily bruised by the ENFP. The ENFP when in this mindset can come off dismissive, selfish, and rude. I want to make this clear: I am describing how this presents to Ti/Fe or strong T types.

ENFP's will no doubt be like ....wait a minute MDP. Not fair!... but they will explain this in their words. How it is for them. It's not thought of - by them - that way at all and there is something to be said for that.

This is a compatibility thing. Do you "get" each other on these levels or not? If not, then hitting your head against walls will be inevitable and that doesn't make for great foundations.

Anyway, good luck OP.

 

[Starry]

This is great. Old patterns are good when noticed. The thing I notice about INTP's and some SJ's, that I think is really great is that they often can separate out their emotions and compartmentalize where to place them, analyze patterns, then put them back together. They dissect themselves.

Sometimes, the cohesion putting things back together isn't....spot on though. (Ti) It lacks a lot of extroverted perspective (Fe) and if one doesn't put more analysis on the weak parts, it's hard to change the pattern unless one is relentless about it because you have to keep re-assessing and you will fall into the same predicaments. Often skipping the steps where they figure out *what they want* rather than *what they should do next*



This is what I picked up from your original post. That you wanted to date toward something more happening.





Now the ENFP's may not like what I'm going to say a bit later on and they will explain their POV and thought processes but the opposing signals thing? It isn't good. When someone gives you mixed signals it means they have mixed feelings. Simple as that.

My next question to you is what are you willing to do here? Couple options:

Put her on the back burner, remain in communication, take things very relaxed but also open yourself up to other dating prospects. (This would be my M.O. as I don't think this girl is someone to invest a lot of time into as per the situation you describe. I don't think what you want and what she wants are aligning at the moment.)

If you aren't sort of built that way and focus on one interest at a time? Then you have to figure out if this is worth it to invest your energy into someone who "isn't sure" what direction they want to go in.

---

From my experience, that Ne/Fi thing? It takes a bit of maturity before ENFP's are able to harness their Fi into specific pursuits/goals/desires.

The Ne aspect just is too tempting. Everything is bright and shiny and they want the experiences and more sensitive Fe inferiors (or strong T types) can be easily bruised by the ENFP. The ENFP when in this mindset can come off dismissive, selfish, and rude. I want to make this clear: I am describing how this presents to Ti/Fe or strong T types.

ENFP's will no doubt be like ....wait a minute MDP. Not fair!... but they will explain this in their words. How it is for them. It's not thought of - by them - that way at all and there is something to be said for that.

This is a compatibility thing. Do you "get" each other on these levels or not? If not, then hitting your head against walls will be inevitable and that doesn't make for great foundations.

Anyway, good luck OP.

I wish I could like this post and also like the fact that [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] liked this post but I know the technology isn't available to me yet.


I don't think this is unfair at all. Are you able to translate into the Ti language though that no matter how well an ENFP may like someone...even the healthiest of ENFPs are unlikely to enter into an exclusive dating situation after only a few weeks of knowing the other. And we are definitely not going to do that if 1.) we have an awareness of our own commitment issues and 2.) we sense the other pushing for some form of commitment out of insecurity


edit: I kinda wanted to ask out of genuine curiosity who doesn't still have mixed feelings leading to mixed signals after only a few weeks? Are some other types able to feel truly certain so quickly?

 

[EG_j]

This is great. Old patterns are good when noticed. The thing I notice about INTP's and some SJ's, that I think is really great is that they often can separate out their emotions and compartmentalize where to place them, analyze patterns, then put them back together. They dissect themselves.

Right, this is really helpful if used correctly (which I still have to learn, overanalyzing is still an issue).

Often skipping the steps where they figure out *what they want* rather than *what they should do next*

This! It's like I am searching for the bigger picture in everything but can't find it for my life so far.

When someone gives you mixed signals it means they have mixed feelings. Simple as that.

Got me!
As simple as this is - I never thought about it that way. I was always expecting some games or tests.
Good to see how paranoid I am at times.

Put her on the back burner, remain in communication, take things very relaxed but also open yourself up to other dating prospects. (This would be my M.O. as I don't think this girl is someone to invest a lot of time into as per the situation you describe. I don't think what you want and what she wants are aligning at the moment.)

I will have to take this into consideration.
But I already have a crush on her and I know how regretful I would get if I didn't try it.
Also (and I know this isn't practical nor clever, it bothers me), I don't have the emotional capacity to focus on more than one potential partner and playing with emotions is not on my bucket list.

If you aren't sort of built that way and focus on one interest at a time? Then you have to figure out if this is worth it to invest your energy into someone who "isn't sure" what direction they want to go in.

She's worth it.
I guess my original post is a little misleading - sorry.
I only shared the problems I have with her but she's great.
Otherwise this thread would not exist.

From my experience, that Ne/Fi thing? It takes a bit of maturity before ENFP's are able to harness their Fi into specific pursuits/goals/desires.
The Ne aspect just is too tempting. Everything is bright and shiny and they want the experiences and more sensitive Fe inferiors (or strong T types) can be easily bruised by the ENFP. The ENFP when in this mindset can come off dismissive, selfish, and rude. I want to make this clear: I am describing how this presents to Ti/Fe or strong T types.

Yep, noticed that, too. It's okay as long as one knows it.
But funny (maybe gallows humour) to see how inferior Fe sometimes comes out of its shell.

ENFP's will no doubt be like ....wait a minute MDP. Not fair!... but they will explain this in their words. How it is for them. It's not thought of - by them - that way at all and there is something to be said for that.

Yes that's true. She has her very own way of expressing herself (something I definitely suck at).

This is a compatibility thing. Do you "get" each other on these levels or not? If not, then hitting your head against walls will be inevitable and that doesn't make for great foundations.

I'd say yes. It was an instant connection.

Anyway, good luck OP.

Thanks, mate!

 

[EG_j]

I don't think this is unfair at all. Are you able to translate into the Ti language though that no matter how well an ENFP may like someone...even the healthiest of ENFPs are unlikely to enter into an exclusive dating situation after only a few weeks of knowing the other. And we are definitely not going to do that if 1.) we have an awareness of our own commitment issues and 2.) we sense the other pushing for some form of commitment out of insecurity

Good to know, thanks!
I think I'm a little guilty of the latter. Time to turn it off.

I kinda wanted to ask out of genuine curiosity who doesn't still have mixed feelings leading to mixed signals after only a few weeks? Are some other types able to feel truly certain so quickly?

Can't speak for all INTPs, but: I don't fall in love very often but if I find a girl I like, it happens almost instantly and desperately.
That way, inferior Fe often puts a spoke in my wheel.

 

[Amargith]

I wish I could like this post and also like the fact that [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] liked this post but I know the technology isn't available to me yet.


I don't think this is unfair at all. Are you able to translate into the Ti language though that no matter how well an ENFP may like someone...even the healthiest of ENFPs are unlikely to enter into an exclusive dating situation after only a few weeks of knowing the other. And we are definitely not going to do that if 1.) we have an awareness of our own commitment issues and 2.) we sense the other pushing for some form of commitment out of insecurity

True. And...since I'm here: D)



To the OP - if I were her:

I personally don't 'date' - never did, or never called it that, but that may be a euro thing.

I hang out with a person, get to know them, enjoy their company, map out their personality - usually a few months of work, easily, though an instant connection and emotional fling does occur. I do this non-stop - hence why I get accused of flirting, so I found out. I build intimate bonds with those I find interesting and see where they go. Then, when I *KISS* someone, that's when I'm in love and I consider us mutually exclusive. Even then, it'll take another month, usually, to sleep with them - before I trust them fully with my body.

I don't get the whole kissing and sex on the third date - how on EARTH do you even *know* that person at that point? I guess...that's my Fi for you. It craves information about the other person and you need to be Ne-'d to death before I'm good with you and feel an authentic and intimate connection - sorry. The thing is - those months of 'waiting' that people so sigh about? I'm doing my homework and I don't *get* that people don't do that. It saves you so much heart-ache and going back and forth. It allows you to grow your bond organically and actually double-check that you're compatible before you tear each others heart out by accident

Believe it or not - personality mapping is also the way I show love in general.. I make it my business to *know* them inside out (as well as I can), so I can respond to them, their needs and their wants to the best of my ability, protect them and revel in who they are and who they can become. I want to listen to you, I want to know you, and I want to know what's in your heart. I relish your vulnerability, and I wouldn't dream of breaking your heart - provided I *have* this information and I see a way to avoid it.

I also don't keep track of social services rendered, sorry. It's funny - I was considered an outrageously, even way too naive, overly generous person by my group of friends, at times. They could call me at 11 in the evening coz their cat was stuck on a roof, or at 1 am in the morning coz their boyfriend dumped them, I didn't mind. I'd gladly spend 2 hours a day talking to them if they were depressed, for as long as it took. And it baffled them. Yet they at times held it against me that I didn't do the frequent exchange of expected acknowledgements of social services. I also suck at doing practical, logistical things that have to do with managing resources and don't recognise the effort that goes into that, I'll completely cop to that. I will however be fully grateful if someone wields that kind of power to get me out of a pinch - always. That's what makes Fe so challenging for me.

I just don't...do that well. And, I can't be arsed to measure relationships in that way. I'm there when you need me, that's a given. You need to ask me about it though, coz no, I won't check in with you every day - I have my head in that Ne-cloud. But I'll bend over backwards and rework my entire schedule, if I see you're in pain. That said, I won't keep track of if you picked me up, or anything else that you may feel should be returned. I'll be grateful and jumping up and down in the moment, but no, I don't feel the need to reciprocate that within a given amount of time. Sure, it needs to be a give and take and I'm more than willing to do my part when you look at the big picture, but I don't parse it like that.

And, more importantly, that EXPECTATION is a ginormous turn-off and a reason to avoid you - as long as you have that expectation - at all costs.

I'm sorry. It's exhausting to deal with that kind of non-stop frustration. At the same time, I get that it's important to others, because it allows them to know at all times where they stand in the relationship, it seems.

I do that through my personality mapping, myself, so I don't feel that need to reconfirm we're good coz..I don't know yet. I'm still mapping you out to find out. It would be weird to non-stop reciprocate just to be polite - and, more importantly, it would pollute the data fed to Fi. I want to see you - warts and all, so I can figure out if your weaknesses - we all have them - will trigger me, and vice versa, and if we'll be able to navigate them, together, as a team. Coz that's what makes or breaks a couple - politeness only gets you so far. I want you to be able to be your worst with me and trust me to love you still. And believe it or not, i'll love you even more for those weaknesses, and consider you courageous for sharing them, not to mention honoured by your trust.

And that is why those expectations are exhausting to me - they effectively cost me oodles of energy to non-stop track them and reciprocate them *and* slow down what I'm actually trying to do. And it will make me resentful, and tired.

I totally understand that this is not how Fe-people usually work. And I don't mind learning yours (the personality mapping will catch that anyways, and tailor fit the places where it is particularly important that I notice your effort), but I won't/can't go native - it would drain the life out of me.

If this isn't comfortable for you, that is absolutely fine. Different strokes for different folks. But then realise we're not compatible. I won't hold it against you, I'll still be nice to you, but being in a close pair bond where that is expected of me won't work, sorry. I don't want to feel resentful towards you, I want to feel genuinely inspired to go out of my way for you, without expecting anything in return for it.

And if you feel moved to do the same for me, that's awesome - we're on the same page, clearly, and can explore things further. But I'll do something similar for strangers, to the best of my ability. For loved ones, I'll of course go further because I know their likes and dislikes better, and because they're in my life and they're more likely to inspire those kind of acts due to my attachment to them. You'll also note that most of my 'services' are of a Fi quality - meaning that acts of practical services are hard for me as it's not readily in my wheelhouse. They'll be more along the lines of emotional support and crazy ideas to lift up your spirits and get you back on your feet that way.

If this isn't something that register with you as 'love' (which is totally understandable), or something that you'll feel resentful over, then you may want to reconsider the ENFP breed - at least, the ENFP kind that hasn't mastered their Te yet. You're most at risk to run into this there. And even then. You may just do better with a nice FJ

You'll also notice I started just about every sentence with 'I' - something that often annoys Fe-users because it appears selfish. The reason for that is because I don't want to presume to be generalising my experiences to other ENFPs. This is how 'I' experience thing and it may provide a clue as to why your ENFP does what she does -but there is no certainty to that.

You may also notice that I put a lot of emphasis on people experiencing and interacting in different ways and that all of those ways are valid. For Fe-users, this is occasionally a problem because they tend to prefer the standardised rules that Fe relies on. Sadly, most enfps, ime, haven't gotten a copy of those rules, nor subscribe to those rules.

And you'll notice the emphasis on raw emotion vs polished social graces. I prefer the raw data of someone's emotions to work with, so I can determine their value system based off of that and tailor our interactions on what they need and what I need. It's why darker emotions generally don't bother me (caveat: unless they're stuck in a loop and self-destructive). I absolutely recognise and marvel the value of polished social graces in navigating a group (like Fe does), but one-on-one, I much prefer tailor fitting our social interaction to *us*.

Lastly, the thing I crave most is to feel understood and accepted for who I am - warts and all. Hence all the personality mapping to seek compatibility. Also, as a young enfp I had no idea about all this stuff - I responded to it instinctually. Nowadays, I have a better handle on the reason behind this all and on Fe itself, but it took a loooot of time...

Hope this gives you somewhat what you're looking for...

/crazy rant

Ps: you may also find this thread useful: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...enfp-issues.html?highlight=common+issues+enfp

PPS: (curtesy of [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] to prompt me to add this) I also want to say that I *love* the fact that you're aware enough to seek out other/ENFP perspectives on this! Keep that trait - it'll serve you greatly if you do decide to date ENFPs and it'll become that Ne-bridge which will allow you to contrast and compare Ti and Fi perspectives without bashing each others skull in

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

edit: I kinda wanted to ask out of genuine curiosity who doesn't still have mixed feelings leading to mixed signals after only a few weeks? Are some other types able to feel truly certain so quickly?

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

Um. Hmm. Good question!

For myself:

I'm guess that "signals" are *somewhat* illusory and subjective. So, it's not a nice little package.

One person signal to slow down is another's signal to stop. Or, no matter what intention is, the reciever or giver has their own version and path to get where they want to go. So there is no right/wrong just different speeds of travel.

But I guess I would say I would take "mixed signals" to mean "lacking in momentum of direction"

So, where is this going? Is it following a path towards building/deteriorating or stagnation?

For instance: You know how some couples when getting together will "switch" roles a bit halfway through? I see it described a lot on the forum.

Usually NF's and ITP's

"I was pursued and won over, I wasn't even into that T in the beginning and he was crazy about me but now that we are together it's like T doesn't even care and I'm dying over here madly in love."

Well, first mistake in NF is assuming pursuing interest is equivalent to IP's depth of feeling. It isn't so related. It over-laps tho. Depth of feeling comes sllloooowly over time with IP's.

But first mistake of IP's is assuming show of depth of feeling by NF is equivalent to interest.

So when these types get together it often "stalls out" halfway through unless they actively work to bridge those natural miscommunications.

NF thinks IP stops caring. Not true. IP thinks NF lacks depth/flighty. Not true.


---

Idk if you are following this. I'm having a hard time putting this down. Lol! It's not real tidy.

But IP's Fe inferiors are like the toddlers of feelings. It's pure. Child-like and when it wants to pursue something it's like all giggly and wants to play.

Not fleshed out until shit gets real. Then it is tested and in kicks that strong Ti. Hey slow down Fe.

Does Enfp Te do same?

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I'm going to be contrary and offer up a different way of looking at this.

...a few weeks ago, I met a cute ENFP girl I really like and until yesterday everything went fine.

Ask yourself, why do you like her? Be specific, what traits/characteristics, not here necessarily, internally.

But she also mentioned that she had the reputation of exploiting guys...

Translation = I'm exploiting you.

After that, there were statements from her like: "I am volatile", "I don't want to hurt you", "Sometimes I think I don't have feelings at all",
"I don't want to be too nice, so I don't send the wrong signals" (my personal favourite, WTF?), "I don't want to ruin it", "I don't want to do something and regret it later", "I want to take things slowly" and all the like, but she also mentioned that she likes me a lot, too.

Seems like she might be preemptively absolving guilt, eehh. The "I don't want to ruin it" comment, lol. Ruin WHAT? BTW The "I am volatile" or it's faithful stand in "I'm passionate" is code for GTFO, hit it and quit it or just hit the ejection button, move on. Fleeee! But hey, maybe you like em that way? Do you?

Now I really don't know what to do. It has never been easy for me with women because of my INTP nature (overanalyzing) and she is the first one I am comfortable with for quite a long time.

You nailed it. Sometimes you gotta say WTF and make your move.

I really have a crush on her and could imagine a relationship with her (something that seemed far far away before I met her)...

Why do you have a crush on her? What about her makes you crush? Answer this question and the one about what you like about her and then you are beginning to rationally assess the situation.

...but I also wonder whether both of us are ready for it.

If you have to ask yourself this and wonder about it, chances are high that you are not. Just saying.

Bottom Line: Make your move, straight up and direct with no expectations. The latter is crucial. The longer you put this off, the more time you're 'wasting' thinking & analyzing the whole situation. Life is short.


P.S. Best way to avoid getting friend zoned (assuming your interest is beyond friendship) is to always make sure the person knows your interest is sexual/romantic. Cards on the table.

 

[1487610420]

I'm going to be contrary and offer up a different way of looking at this.



Ask yourself, why do you like her? Be specific, what traits/characteristics, not here necessarily, internally.



Translation = I'm exploiting you.



Seems like she might be preemptively absolving guilt, eehh. The "I don't want to ruin it" comment, lol. Ruin WHAT? BTW The "I am volatile" or it's faithful stand in "I'm passionate" is code for GTFO, hit it and quit it or just hit the ejection button, move on. Fleeee! But hey, maybe you like em that way? Do you?



You nailed it. Sometimes you gotta say WTF and make your move.



Why do you have a crush on her? What about her makes you crush? Answer this question and the one about what you like about her and then you are beginning to rationally assess the situation.



If you have to ask yourself this and wonder about it, chances are high that you are not. Just saying.

Bottom Line: Make your move, straight up and direct with no expectations. The latter is crucial. The longer you put this off, the more time you're 'wasting' thinking & analyzing the whole situation. Life is short.


P.S. Best way to avoid getting friend zoned (assuming your interest is beyond friendship) is to always make sure the person knows your interest is sexual/romantic. Cards on the table.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Bingo. You know my ways Phobik. You sneaky bastard

 

[EG_j]

I hang out with a person, get to know them, enjoy their company, map out their personality - usually a few months of work, easily, though an instant connection and emotional fling does occur. I do this non-stop - hence why I get accused of flirting, so I found out. I build intimate bonds with those I find interesting and see where they go. Believe it or not - personality mapping is also the way I show love in general.. I make it my business to *know* them inside out (as well as I can), so I can respond to them, their needs and their wants to the best of my ability, protect them and revel in who they are and who they can become. I want to listen to you, I want to know you, and I want to know what's in your heart. I relish your vulnerability, and I wouldn't dream of breaking your heart - provided I *have* this information and I see a way to avoid it.

I do that through my personality mapping, myself, so I don't feel that need to reconfirm we're good coz..I don't know yet.
I'm still mapping you out to find out. It would be weird to non-stop reciprocate just to be polite - and, more importantly, it would pollute the data fed to Fi.
I want to see you - warts and all, so I can figure out if your weaknesses - we all have them - will trigger me, and vice versa, and if we'll be able to navigate them, together, as a team.
Coz that's what makes or breaks a couple - politeness only gets you so far. I want you to be able to be your worst with me and trust me to love you still.
And believe it or not, i'll love you even more for those weaknesses, and consider you courageous for sharing them, not to mention honoured by your trust.

This is very interesting and reasonable as well.
Usually, I am (was?) pretty closed and needed some time to open up - With her, I think I'm able to express my fears and weaknesses, even if I sometimes lack the right words to do so.

Then, when I *KISS* someone, that's when I'm in love and I consider us mutually exclusive. Even then, it'll take another month, usually, to sleep with them - before I trust them fully with my body.

That's what keeps me wondering... After we kissed, she said that it would be "already much" for her. But a few days ago (at the baking meetup) it was like "NO!!!!" when I tried to kiss her.
But I guess I have to give her some time and get to know her better.

I don't get the whole kissing and sex on the third date - how on EARTH do you even *know* that person at that point? I guess...that's my Fi for you. It craves information about the other person and you need to be Ne-'d to death before I'm good with you and feel an authentic and intimate connection - sorry. The thing is - those months of 'waiting' that people so sigh about? I'm doing my homework and I don't *get* that people don't do that. It saves you so much heart-ache and going back and forth. It allows you to grow your bond organically and actually double-check that you're compatible before you tear each others heart out by accident

I also don't keep track of social services rendered, sorry. It's funny - I was considered an outrageously, even way too naive, overly generous person by my group of friends, at times.
They could call me at 11 in the evening coz their cat was stuck on a roof, or at 1 am in the morning coz their boyfriend dumped them, I didn't mind. I'd gladly spend 2 hours a day talking to them if they were depressed,
for as long as it took. And it baffled them. Yet they at times held it against me that I didn't do the frequent exchange of expected acknowledgements of social services.
I also suck at doing practical, logistical things that have to do with managing resources and don't recognise the effort that goes into that, I'll completely cop to that.
I will however be fully grateful if someone wields that kind of power to get me out of a pinch - always. That's what makes Fe so challenging for me.

I get your point. It may be a mix of wrong imagination and bad advice by everyone throughout my life (or at least bad advice when it comes to ENFPs). I just got a feeling of having "lost" every time when things didn't develop quickly.

For the friendship/social services part: Thanks a lot for sharing this! From her behaviour one could conclude that she's unreliable - but maybe she has just different priorities depending on the situation.
Keeping track of nearly everything may be an issue, but this happens automatically (probably a Ti-Si thing). I can't turn it completely off, but I have to learn not to freak out about it.
Inferior Fe is really a curse sometimes... I'm glad that I finally even notice its influences on me. I'm a Fe user, but I strongly dislike it when people overuse it - So I have to tame the child within me a bit.

And, more importantly, that EXPECTATION is a ginormous turn-off and a reason to avoid you - as long as you have that expectation - at all costs.
I'm sorry. It's exhausting to deal with that kind of non-stop frustration. At the same time, I get that it's important to others, because it allows them to know at all times where they stand in the relationship, it seems.

And that is why those expectations are exhausting to me - they effectively cost me oodles of energy to non-stop track them and reciprocate them *and* slow down what I'm actually trying to do.
And it will make me resentful, and tired.

Hm, this is really important. When it comes to relationships, sometimes I just want to "know" to be liked/loved/whatever (inferior Fe calling again) and where I stand.
I'll have to work on that and maybe I should talk to her about it (later).

I totally understand that this is not how Fe-people usually work. And I don't mind learning yours (the personality mapping will catch that anyways, and tailor fit the places where it is particularly important that I notice your effort), but I won't/can't go native - it would drain the life out of me.
If this isn't comfortable for you, that is absolutely fine. Different strokes for different folks. But then realise we're not compatible. I won't hold it against you, I'll still be nice to you, but being in a close pair bond where that is expected of me won't work, sorry. I don't want to feel resentful towards you, I want to feel genuinely inspired to go out of my way for you, without expecting anything in return for it.

And if you feel moved to do the same for me, that's awesome - we're on the same page, clearly, and can explore things further.
But I'll do something similar for strangers, to the best of my ability. For loved ones, I'll of course go further because I know their likes and dislikes better,
and because they're in my life and they're more likely to inspire those kind of acts due to my attachment to them.

You'll also note that most of my 'services' are of a Fi quality - meaning that acts of practical services are hard for me as it's not readily in my wheelhouse.
They'll be more along the lines of emotional support and crazy ideas to lift up your spirits and get you back on your feet that way.

If this isn't something that register with you as 'love' (which is totally understandable), or something that you'll feel resentful over, then you may want to reconsider the ENFP breed -
at least, the ENFP kind that hasn't mastered their Te yet. You're most at risk to run into this there. And even then. You may just do better with a nice FJ

You may also notice that I put a lot of emphasis on people experiencing and interacting in different ways and that all of those ways are valid.
For Fe-users, this is occasionally a problem because they tend to prefer the standardised rules that Fe relies on. Sadly, most enfps, ime, haven't gotten a copy of those rules, nor subscribe to those rules.

And you'll notice the emphasis on raw emotion vs polished social graces. I prefer the raw data of someone's emotions to work with, so I can determine their value system based off of that and tailor our interactions on
what they need and what I need. It's why darker emotions generally don't bother me (caveat: unless they're stuck in a loop and self-destructive).
I absolutely recognise and marvel the value of polished social graces in navigating a group (like Fe does), but one-on-one, I much prefer tailor fitting our social interaction to *us*.

Lastly, the thing I crave most is to feel understood and accepted for who I am - warts and all. Hence all the personality mapping to seek compatibility.
Also, as a young enfp I had no idea about all this stuff - I responded to it instinctually. Nowadays, I have a better handle on the reason behind this all and on Fe itself, but it took a loooot of time...

Well, then I will try to take it easy, just have a good time with her and get to know her better. That doesn't mean I won't pursue more, but I'll give her the time she needs.
We'll see what develops, I try to limit my expectations to a point that is comfortable for both of us.

Concerning your FJ idea: Since I don't like Fe overdose (and have to deal with enough of them within my family) I think ExFJs wouldn't be a good match. IxFJs however are more likely to be "my type".
But I can worry about this if it doesn't work out with my precious ENFP.

You'll also notice I started just about every sentence with 'I' - something that often annoys Fe-users because it appears selfish. The reason for that is because I don't want to presume to be generalising my experiences to other ENFPs. This is how 'I' experience thing and it may provide a clue as to why your ENFP does what she does -but there is no certainty to that.

Haha, this is funny because it happens to me a lot, too (and often for the same reason - I don't like generalization). I'm guilty of rewriting sentences, so I don't have like five subsequent "I ..." sentences.

Hope this gives you somewhat what you're looking for...

/crazy rant

More like awesome rant! Thanks again, this is really helpful!

PPS: (curtesy of [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] to prompt me to add this) I also want to say that I *love* the fact that you're aware enough to seek out other/ENFP perspectives on this!
Keep that trait - it'll serve you greatly if you do decide to date ENFPs and it'll become that Ne-bridge which will allow you to contrast and compare Ti and Fi perspectives without bashing each others skull in

Thank you, I really think this is very important and it's something I missed out for a long time.
I learned that applying only Ti to relationships probably isn't the best idea.

 

[EG_j]

But IP's Fe inferiors are like the toddlers of feelings. It's pure. Child-like and when it wants to pursue something it's like all giggly and wants to play.

Not fleshed out until shit gets real. Then it is tested and in kicks that strong Ti. Hey slow down Fe.

Does Enfp Te do same?

This. In many regards, I feel pretty mature in comparison to my peers (I'm 20 btw) but when it comes to emotions... Where's my dummy?

I wonder about the impact of Te on ENFPs as well.

 

[EG_j]

I'm going to be contrary and offer up a different way of looking at this.

Other points of view are always welcome.

Ask yourself, why do you like her? Be specific, what traits/characteristics, not here necessarily, internally.

I did. And I really like her, it's not just that I'm swept away.

Translation = I'm exploiting you.

... I hope not.

Seems like she might be preemptively absolving guilt, eehh. The "I don't want to ruin it" comment, lol. Ruin WHAT?
BTW The "I am volatile" or it's faithful stand in "I'm passionate" is code for GTFO, hit it and quit it or just hit the ejection button, move on. Fleeee! But hey, maybe you like em that way? Do you?

"Ruin WHAT?" - Yep, that's what I asked myself, too.
But right now I can't estimate how "volatile" she is. I don't want to flee.
I like girls that are full of life because it's a refreshing contrast to myself. But I also know it can annoy me at times.

You nailed it. Sometimes you gotta say WTF and make your move.

That's what I did, and except last time she followed in happily.
When the moment has come the next move will follow.

Why do you have a crush on her? What about her makes you crush? Answer this question and the one about what you like about her and then you are beginning to rationally assess the situation.

Good question. This is harder to answer than why I like her at all. It is... just the case. Her looks and her curious mind are part of the reason though.

If you have to ask yourself this and wonder about it, chances are high that you are not. Just saying.

That doesn't have to be the case. I just question everything. EVERYTHING!

Bottom Line: Make your move, straight up and direct with no expectations. The latter is crucial. The longer you put this off, the more time you're 'wasting' thinking & analyzing the whole situation. Life is short.

P.S. Best way to avoid getting friend zoned (assuming your interest is beyond friendship) is to always make sure the person knows your interest is sexual/romantic. Cards on the table.

This is some good advice. She knows my interest is sexual/romantic and she has to be interested in it somehow because otherwise she wouldn't have kissed me on two different occasions.
I just don't know how to make it clear without putting pressure on her (which seems to be a big no-go for ENFPs).
Some ideas?

 

[Cloudpatrol]

What would be a proper reaction? I mean, how would you (as ENFP) react to something like "On sunday I was a little shorttaken. I know I didn't express myself clearly and behaved strange and I'm sorry about it.
The truth is, I could imagine a relationship with you very well and I would give you all the time you need.
How about this: We continue getting to know each other, have a good time and see what develops."

Any further ideas/suggestions?

Really impressed with your thread. If it's an indication of how you comport yourself - in general - you are a great addition to the forum!

I so admire your intent to just communicate clearly with the above. I think that if the person you say this to is mature, they will value your self-awareness and ability to be direct. It expresses that you are 'hearing her' but also are willing to let things develop organically and not under huge expectations or pressure. Nice!

Being surprised by someone with honesty is attractive as hell.

That's what I try to do… Not my area of expertise though. She also mentioned that she is not that romantic, so… Does anyone have an idea how to make a rather unromantic ENFP melt?

I have said those ^ words many times.

In my case it could be translated: "I don't need poetry. I am already poetic. I don't need a bouquet of roses. If you bring me even one flower that you personally like, it will mean so much more. I don't need to be taken to a fancy restaurant or given jewellery. If you sit with me and talk about the world and everything in it, I will be entranced. If you tell me about what REALLY matters to you and want to learn about me, I will consider that romantic. If you tell me what specifically makes me different and desirable, I will be yours".

What has made my heart melt? Things like: a used book that was exactly to my tastes in humour, an oddly shaped rock he had picked up at the beach because he was thinking of me while skipping rocks with his friends, looking into my eyes with soul explosions, making up a nickname for the style I speak with...

If you pay attention and go with something that reflects that you ARE = it will win favour. I feel certain.

All the best with this Chiquita

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

So when she invited me to "bake apple pie", I thought she would mean some other activity, too.

She really seems to need more time before cooking with you. If I were in your shoes I'd test her to see how far she could exploit me.

One day there was a guy testing me (some ESTP) who wanted to lend me his blue card. Of course that's not the best example, but you as an INTP can be creative and thus invent

some methods to test her on that point, see if you can trust her.


Sometimes we think we have a crush for someone...until we meet someone much more nice and fair. Maybe you like her because she seems contradictory...

Have you found the reasons for those contradictions ? In your shoes I'd be a little bit more direct, have you asked her about her feelings and her intentions since this time ?

You have nothing to lose.


I have dated an ENFP for a long time. I only have one advise : Never run after them. I've realised ENFP are very lovely but a lot into seduction too.

Maybe she just enjoys testing her own seduction/sex-appeal power on you.

 

[EG_j]

Really impressed with your thread. If it's an indication of how you comport yourself - in general - you are a great addition to the forum!

I so admire your intent to just communicate clearly with the above. I think that if the person you say this to is mature, they will value your self-awareness and ability to be direct. It expresses that you are 'hearing her' but also are willing to let things develop organically and not under huge expectations or pressure. Nice!

Being surprised by someone with honesty is attractive as hell.

Thank you!
Next time I'm with her, I'll give it a try... I'm curious about how she will react.
Hopefully I succeed in expressing it verbally like I did in writing.

I have said those ^ words many times.

In my case it could be translated: "I don't need poetry. I am already poetic. I don't need a bouquet of roses. If you bring me even one flower that you personally like, it will mean so much more. I don't need to be taken to a fancy restaurant or given jewellery. If you sit with me and talk about the world and everything in it, I will be entranced. If you tell me about what REALLY matters to you and want to learn about me, I will consider that romantic. If you tell me what specifically makes me different and desirable, I will be yours".

That's a pretty cool approach to romance in general! I think everyone has his/her own imagination what romance should be like and I'm glad you shared yours. Time to learn what her point of view is.

What has made my heart melt? Things like: a used book that was exactly to my tastes in humour, an oddly shaped rock he had picked up at the beach because he was thinking of me while skipping rocks with his friends, looking into my eyes with soul explosions, making up a nickname for the style I speak with...

If you pay attention and go with something that reflects that you ARE = it will win favour. I feel certain.

Sounds good. Those examples also seem much more natural than the textbook version of "romance".

All the best with this Chiquita

Thanks a lot!