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HELP ME. (male INTJ/female ENFP, romantic)

Poki

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Well, I am. But without the impetus of higher consciousness/shock value, what awakens a person really? I have been myself, quirky, reverent of nothing, and beat the shit out of that drum. But, I've hurt many people in that wake. Isolated myself in the process. As I've gotten older, matured, and am setting an example for my children, I've found I'm not particularly happy/proud in some of my original approaches to challenging norms. It can also be said, that is the fundamental stimuli in most ENFP selfishness, which is often complained about with strict regard to relationships, some of which are with INTJ's, and hurt has followed. (Read the numerous threads to such)

How can I hold my head up high having delved so much irrevocable destruction?

So the pendulum swings. And to the other extreme I went. (Yes, losing myself in the process) However, being broken and lost has been transformative. Order and balance are the laws of the universe, so it swings back, only now...I'm empowered to influence how far and with what intensity. I now know of my own strengths, and my own weaknesses. Neither to be taken lightly. The true goddess I am capable of is turning my cheek to the sun and, like a prism, refracting an incredibly full spectrum nurturing a colorful life. I only hope that can exude into the life of others as a true Inspiration...just like an evolved ENFP should; as the embodiment of the ENFP stereotype represents!

I have never really fell asleep. I am constantly heading in the direction I wanna go. I am not full steam ahead, balls to the wall. I just move in that direction and always work to keep the direction on the radar.

Challenging norms is nothing but "fight" mode. It actually can be used to steer someone against what they want because you know they will hit fight. It's a method of reverse psychology. With you it's a large scale fight against norm it seems.

You sound like you are on a good path. I can give one piece of advice that has steered me right everytime. Whenever you hit challenge mode ask yourself if it's in the direction of the path you wanna take or not. Always follow your dreams, not challenging other people. It is an ego thing that does that, and the ego must be broken or others will lead you astray from your dreams and goals. Nothing wrong with social norms as long as theyou fit you. Life is not about challenging the norms it's about finding your way based on who you are. Ego protect itself, not your directions or dreams.
 

SearchingforPeace

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How can I hold my head up high having delved so much irrevocable destruction?
Because you can do so much going forward.

The past is gone. All you can do now is learn from your experiences and be a better person. Use your great potential to be a positive force in the world.

You already know what to do and be, as shown below.

So the pendulum swings. And to the other extreme I went. (Yes, losing myself in the process) However, being broken and lost has been transformative. Order and balance are the laws of the universe, so it swings back, only now...I'm empowered to influence how far and with what intensity. I now know of my own strengths, and my own weaknesses. Neither to be taken lightly. The true goddess I am capable of is turning my cheek to the sun and, like a prism, refracting an incredibly full spectrum nurturing a colorful life. I only hope that can exude into the life of others as a true Inspiration...just like an evolved ENFP should; as the embodiment of the ENFP stereotype represents!
 

Hapyniss

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Because you can do so much going forward.

The past is gone. All you can do now is learn from your experiences and be a better person. Use your great potential to be a positive force in the world.

You already know what to do and be, as shown below.

That's exactly correct and what I'm doing.
 

Hapyniss

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I have never really fell asleep. I am constantly heading in the direction I wanna go. I am not full steam ahead, balls to the wall. I just move in that direction and always work to keep the direction on the radar.
You are truly blessed. I am a full steam ahead type, though. I'd dare say too, however, you never know a muscle is sore until someone else goes to massage it. Keep in mind caution that you could be sleeping.

Challenging norms is nothing but "fight" mode. It actually can be used to steer someone against what they want because you know they will hit fight. It's a method of reverse psychology. With you it's a large scale fight against norm it seems.
Not so much. There's a difference, at least for me, between fighting and challenging. Challenging looks like this: Someone states "I believe what the Bible says 100%". Me: "Really? What about the Bible lends itself to be that altruistic?" Conversation ensues from here. I'm not emotionally connected to the content, but asked a curiously charged open ended question that typically arouses conversation. I've usually found that people haven't even really thought about the statement or claim they've just made. Sometimes, by the end of the conversation - the person retracts the statement, revises it, while still maintaining their belief and value system, but has a more informed opinion rather than a blind one. (I really live for these types of moments and is the impetus to postulation) This, of course, is an extreme example. I don't always have conversations about controversial subjects. It's just more alluring conversations when they are taboos.
Fighting for me has more to do with adequately defending my position in more "debate" mode. Or, I'm actually physically defending someone I love. I'm emotionally attached to the content and willing to Die On That Hill, picking my battles carefully at that. I happen to be a loyal, love to the core, passionate, ride-or-die type of woman. There is no in betweens once I've decided to place my affections and there is no going back. This is why I'm entirely selective about whom enters my life significantly and how much of me they get.

You sound like you are on a good path. I can give one piece of advice that has steered me right everytime. Whenever you hit challenge mode ask yourself if it's in the direction of the path you wanna take or not. Always follow your dreams, not challenging other people. It is an ego thing that does that, and the ego must be broken or others will lead you astray from your dreams and goals. Nothing wrong with social norms as long as theyou fit you. Life is not about challenging the norms it's about finding your way based on who you are. Ego protect itself, not your directions or dreams.

Thanks and noted.
 

Poki

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You are truly blessed. I am a full steam ahead type, though. I'd dare say too, however, you never know a muscle is sore until someone else goes to massage it. Keep in mind caution that you could be sleeping.


Not so much. There's a difference, at least for me, between fighting and challenging. Challenging looks like this: Someone states "I believe what the Bible says 100%". Me: "Really? What about the Bible lends itself to be that altruistic?" Conversation ensues from here. I'm not emotionally connected to the content, but asked a curiously charged open ended question that typically arouses conversation. I've usually found that people haven't even really thought about the statement or claim they've just made. Sometimes, by the end of the conversation - the person retracts the statement, revises it, while still maintaining their belief and value system, but has a more informed opinion rather than a blind one. (I really live for these types of moments and is the impetus to postulation) This, of course, is an extreme example. I don't always have conversations about controversial subjects. It's just more alluring conversations when they are taboos.
Fighting for me has more to do with adequately defending my position in more "debate" mode. Or, I'm actually physically defending someone I love. I'm emotionally attached to the content and willing to Die On That Hill, picking my battles carefully at that. I happen to be a loyal, love to the core, passionate, ride-or-die type of woman. There is no in betweens once I've decided to place my affections and there is no going back. This is why I'm entirely selective about whom enters my life significantly and how much of me they get.



Thanks and noted.

I wish I could close my eyes, it's a blessing and a curse. I see more then I want to and I have learned how to live my life that way. I have to pick and choose when to rationalize because I know I am doing it. I have to pick and choose so much because I can't close my eyes. IJs that know me would say I am to smart for my own good. I can't control it, I can't shut my eyes. I wish I could fall asleep sometimes, but then I know I am sleeping and I can even control my dreams already because my mind knows I am asleep. Physically it's easy to sleep, when it comes to life in the way you mentioned, not so much.

The example and description doesn't match the impression you gave about challenges and hurt and selfish. With who you said and selfish and such I see a different side of ENFP then what you describe as challenge. What you describe about challenge and social doesn't seem like anything selfish, more like you are just surrounded by stuck up close minded people. That's not selfish on your part, it's selfish on their part. I will have to go back through the previous things and see how this all fits in the picture as a whole in regard to what you say.

I don't see what you do as a challenge, just additional data and welcome most of the time. When I dont have time is the only time it's ever unwelcome and that's just temporary. I don't like running myself full steam. Luckily I get alot done not full steam ahead, more then most.
 

Poki

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You are truly blessed. I am a full steam ahead type, though. I'd dare say too, however, you never know a muscle is sore until someone else goes to massage it. Keep in mind caution that you could be sleeping.


Not so much. There's a difference, at least for me, between fighting and challenging. Challenging looks like this: Someone states "I believe what the Bible says 100%". Me: "Really? What about the Bible lends itself to be that altruistic?" Conversation ensues from here. I'm not emotionally connected to the content, but asked a curiously charged open ended question that typically arouses conversation. I've usually found that people haven't even really thought about the statement or claim they've just made. Sometimes, by the end of the conversation - the person retracts the statement, revises it, while still maintaining their belief and value system, but has a more informed opinion rather than a blind one. (I really live for these types of moments and is the impetus to postulation) This, of course, is an extreme example. I don't always have conversations about controversial subjects. It's just more alluring conversations when they are taboos.
Fighting for me has more to do with adequately defending my position in more "debate" mode. Or, I'm actually physically defending someone I love. I'm emotionally attached to the content and willing to Die On That Hill, picking my battles carefully at that. I happen to be a loyal, love to the core, passionate, ride-or-die type of woman. There is no in betweens once I've decided to place my affections and there is no going back. This is why I'm entirely selective about whom enters my life significantly and how much of me they get.



Thanks and noted.

I defend what needs defending when I love someone. That gets extremely complicated. Loyal to a fault has issues and will get you trapped in crap supporting people who don't need to be supported, propogating things that don't need propogated, etc. Find someone one you don't need to defend, don't need to be loyal to, and don't need to go back. That's when you know you made the right selection. I see to much people stuck in crap because of that, living a life they are just half ass happy in, making excuses they shouldn't have to make, and propogating ideas that shouldnt be propogated. Not saying that's you, but that is a norm for that type and those concepts.
 

Hapyniss

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I wish I could close my eyes, it's a blessing and a curse. I see more then I want to and I have learned how to live my life that way. I have to pick and choose when to rationalize because I know I am doing it. I have to pick and choose so much because I can't close my eyes. IJs that know me would say I am to smart for my own good. I can't control it, I can't shut my eyes. I wish I could fall asleep sometimes, but then I know I am sleeping and I can even control my dreams already because my mind knows I am asleep. Physically it's easy to sleep, when it comes to life in the way you mentioned, not so much.

The example and description doesn't match the impression you gave about challenges and hurt and selfish. With who you said and selfish and such I see a different side of ENFP then what you describe as challenge. What you describe about challenge and social doesn't seem like anything selfish, more like you are just surrounded by stuck up close minded people. That's not selfish on your part, it's selfish on their part. I will have to go back through the previous things and see how this all fits in the picture as a whole in regard to what you say.

I don't see what you do as a challenge, just additional data and welcome most of the time. When I dont have time is the only time it's ever unwelcome and that's just temporary. I don't like running myself full steam. Luckily I get alot done not full steam ahead, more then most.

I'm sure it is. That's most likely the impetus behind such philosophical beauties as "Ignorance is bliss".

Yes, true. But this is who I've become as a result of blazing through emotionally charged actions without care for others. Now I make it a point to listen and consider others point of view. Not necessarily to accept theirs as my own, but merely hear them out because it serves a different purpose entirely. When younger, there was extreme selfishness. That, of course, could just be immaturity and not type.

What side of ENFP do you see? What examples would you give?
 

Poki

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I'm sure it is. That's most likely the impetus behind such philosophical beauties as "Ignorance is bliss".

Yes, true. But this is who I've become as a result of blazing through emotionally charged actions without care for others. Now I make it a point to listen and consider others point of view. Not necessarily to accept theirs as my own, but merely hear them out because it serves a different purpose entirely. When younger, there was extreme selfishness. That, of course, could just be immaturity and not type.

What side of ENFP do you see? What examples would you give?

Usually selfishness is I will do what I want and the level of ENFPS emotions toward that person dictates the amount of negativity they throw at them. Emotions could be dislike hate, incompetent, etc. Almost as if everything is a direct challenge to thier thinking from these people. It becomes a stubbornness that depending on who and what topic will bite them in the ass because they have shutdown with those people and have pinned the emotion on them. Kinda like they say rose colored glasses, there are many different colors. It's like they have to push tier way through the world and the more they struggle the more butt hurt they deal avoiding truth.

Some types like INTJS have a hard tie seeing the reasons or even that their is a reason other then just mean. Same with ISTJS. It doesn't make sense and they don't like it so it's been judged and things can become a negative fight and warfare though they love each other. When it goes down that path it's a love/hate relationship which is not good. I have done something for an ENFP before and she snapped at me until she realized it was me then apologized and her anger went from pissed to nothing in a split second. She thought her husband did it. Husband is ISTJ, just an example of the different colored glasses. I can't do wrong, but her husband can. I screw up and it's funny, he screws up and he is incompetent and sfupid. It's all driven by the way he makes her feel and the stuff he has done. That changes the rose colored glasses. Now stress can as well among other things. I am dating an ENFP actually. I call her out on her colored glasses very frequently, I usually do this by challenging what she sees. Kinda like taking off the glasse s. Usually questioning because she can get short sighted at times. Not all the time. Sometimes her choice of focus is on the little stuff and I find the big stuff when I dig which validates the reaction. Other times not so much. I am working with her on bitching about the big stuff that matters and not all the little supporting stuff unless it's truly a build up of all the little thing. I guess I just dig alot. To see if it's heavily colored glasses or reality. It's usually her problems with the world, we mesh very well together. I few things I do drive her nuts, but for the most part we get along good. An argument is usually over other things, not me and her. Everyone in a while it's about me vs her, but it's more of a i like things this was and she likes them that way and those are usually short lived. Someone always bends, whether it be me or her.
 

uumlau

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I'm going to hit on a few particular points, here.

Here's questions: Outside of making grandiose assumptions, what can I infer he understands about ENFP and the experience that I'm having with him? How/What would he have studied/noted if that's the type he's most interested in dating?
Rumors and anecdotes. ENFPs are amazing when combined with INTJs and vice versa. The attraction is that each type superficially meets each other's ideals. ENFPs are that sparkling energy INTJs need as inspiration and they easily tolerate most INTJ quirks, and INTJs are a solid rock that ENFPs can rely on, and INTJs reciprocally tolerate most all of the ENFP's quirks.

The problem is that the superficial attraction often doesn't develop into an attraction for the deeper levels of each other. The superficial level is so easy, it's very tempting to stay there.

There is only one cure: 100% honesty. That's more difficult than you might realize, as neither of you is very good at being honest with yourselves. That's not an insult, it's called "being human"! Honesty with oneself is one of the most difficult lessons to learn, and billions of people never learn it. So what happens is that we lie to ourselves, and then we tell that lie (that we believe) to the one we love, and they're like "Bullshit. You're hiding something," because when we're that close to someone, they see parts of us we don't see. But we don't THINK we're lying, and so instead of resolving the issue, it goes around in circles until it destroys the relationship.

So far, most of the advice I get is about (seemingly) how to cater to the INTJ so that he feels comfortable, loved, cared for, space, quality time, etc. etc.
Don't cater. Especially as a type 2, cuz that's your coping mechanism. It will work "too well", until it doesn't.

Instead, be gentle with his feelings. That's the ONLY rule, from what I've learned. Think of his heart like the groundhog, which will only come out of its burrow if there is nothing to scare/startle it. Gentle, gentle, gentle. Ask, don't judge. INTJs sorta-kinda have an "inner ISFP", which mostly describes how his feelings work. A lot of his instinctual emotions might repulse you, not seem noble enough, and so on. Your emotions are connected to your ideals: Ne with Fi. His emotions are connected with his physical presence in the world: Fi with Se.

That said, be firm with respect to reality and logistics (Te). Stand your ground for what you want, too. Don't just give in to his desires because you want to cater to him. Don't worry, INTJs really respect those that stand up to us (and are smart enough to explain how we're being stupid!). Such people are very rare ... most people aren't as smart and perceptive as an ENFP is w/r to such things.

So, be gentle, but firm. Don't hurt him, and don't let him hurt you.

Before I jump into a future with him, I do want to ensure that my needs will be important and treated as such too. At this point, I feel a genuine interest from him and I know we like each other, but I'm also equally concerned about his capability to function in a relationship knowing he's without much experience. And sometimes, he's just plain awkward!!!!!(I would put more exclamation points if it wouldn't be annoying to INTJ's ;)

We'll always be awkward. We gradually become less awkward with experience. Give him the experience - heck, drag him along for experiences - and let him learn from those.

That awkwardness is also why honesty is so important. INTJs are really totally clueless about how relationships work when they're younger. It isn't that they don't want to be kind and nice and supportive, they simply don't know how. All of the INTJ's theoretical ideas don't help out one bit. ;)

For instance, the first kiss was amazing. The kind of feeling that I've made fun of other woman for having - you know - weak in the knees, toe curling, goose bumps, kiss :blush:. He even said "You're an exceptionally good kisser" and he came in for 2 more kisses (each one increasing in intensity/passion) before we finally said good night.
Been there, done that. (Heck, it's the main reason I decided to read more closely and respond!) INTJs can be a lot better at that than would be obvious at first blush. Remember that "inner ISFP" with the inferior Se: you're feeling his emotion through his physical touch. You feel how much he cares in ways that cannot be expressed in words.

Notice that you thought HE was a good kisser and he said you were a good kisser. That wasn't skill. That was connection. You both had a great deal of emotional trust for each other in that moment.

However, the past 2 attempts at kissing were practically epic fails! Like little peck kisses after he spent 15 minutes shifting his weight back and forth like at an 8th grade dance. Wha....? What happened to amazeballs kisser dude? Where'd he go? Bring him back! - WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE? :shrug:

*sigh*

Been there, done that, too. :dry:

It's the lack of connection. If one or the other of you isn't trying to connect, or is feeling awkward and/or self-conscious, the connection part doesn't happen.

Don't worry. This is normal. This is where HONESTY comes in. HONESTY builds connection. DISHONESTY destroys connection. Period. Even unintentional/unconscious dishonesty. And being honest in this manner is very difficult.


I think I'd be inclined to believe he's losing interest if he didn't, on the same date, ask me to meet his family and make multiple futuristic plans together. He also said that the conversation was so interesting he felt like we were the only 2 people in the restaurant and he lost track of time. (and proceeded awkwardly getting up because he had to get up early for work - like almost knocked his chair over)

Aren't these signs of INTJ interest? Confuscious Maximus.

In other words, he was in full-on INTJ mode. He was living in ideas, and plans, and logistics. The one thing to remember about ANY type is that while we all have our hidden side, we are not primarily that hidden side. In the long run, we're both sides, but in the normal course of events, our primary type is where our mind usually is. Another one of the rules is that when we express either side, the other side becomes dormant. So when an INTJ is full-on INTJ, there is little or no ISFP. And vice versa, when we INTJs decide to allow ourselves to experience and process the world in ISFP terms, there is little or no INTJ present. Personally, it feels like I have to deliberately "not think" to go into that mental space. For me it happens with music, whether I'm playing piano or dancing.

Question: (knowing this will be different for each INTJ) How much awareness does an INTJ have of the other persons experience in the relationship?
Very little awareness, in general.

Well, I am. But without the impetus of higher consciousness/shock value, what awakens a person really?
You're going to start seeing a theme here: HONESTY. Self-honesty, which is in turn self-awareness.

And you only get to work on your own self awareness. You can't work on the other person's self-awareness. So, yeah, you both need to be working on that.

I have been myself, quirky, reverent of nothing, and beat the shit out of that drum. But, I've hurt many people in that wake. Isolated myself in the process. As I've gotten older, matured, and am setting an example for my children, I've found I'm not particularly happy/proud in some of my original approaches to challenging norms. It can also be said, that is the fundamental stimuli in most ENFP selfishness, which is often complained about with strict regard to relationships, some of which are with INTJ's, and hurt has followed. (Read the numerous threads to such)

Yeah. There is a good thread on this topic: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/the-nf-idyllic/76243-enfps-evil.html

That would be a good start to acquiring more self-honesty.

How can I hold my head up high having delved so much irrevocable destruction?
Simple. By learning from it. The mere fact that you call it "irrevocable destruction" means that you're owning it and intend to learn from it. Realize what you REALLY care about, and which of your "passions" are just gut-level instincts that you pander to but otherwise cause you no end of trouble. The problem isn't "getting what you want" but rather "getting what you THINK you want" and being entirely WRONG about what you really want, what you really care about.

That's where honesty and self-awareness come in. Again. ;)

So the pendulum swings. And to the other extreme I went. (Yes, losing myself in the process) However, being broken and lost has been transformative. Order and balance are the laws of the universe, so it swings back, only now...I'm empowered to influence how far and with what intensity. I now know of my own strengths, and my own weaknesses. Neither to be taken lightly. The true goddess I am capable of is turning my cheek to the sun and, like a prism, refracting an incredibly full spectrum nurturing a colorful life. I only hope that can exude into the life of others as a true Inspiration...just like an evolved ENFP should; as the embodiment of the ENFP stereotype represents!

You can only be as good as you desire to be by being aware of how you hurt other people. That doesn't mean you should "never" hurt other people. Hurting people is unavoidable. But you can eliminate most of the gross cases of hurting other people, and only hurt them when you're essentially forced to by circumstance (e.g., when you stand up for yourself, but another's desires depend on your not standing up for yourself).

Don't think that you are "evolved".

You are "evolving".

There is a huge difference.

With luck, you can bring that same self-honest attitude you are trying to develop into your INTJ's life. If you both develop that level of honesty with yourselves and each other, your connection with each other will become extremely strong.
 

CO-in-Gnito

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Why don't you challenge it yourself? That's the wonder that is ENFP, the ideas and things they go out and do and the different ways they go about things. They are usually a beat to thier own drum type of people. You should push towards being who you are, not who everyone else is. With ENFP the most social thinking I am aware of is the "why would they do this" because it turns into a "people" thing as opposed to a person because you don't know the person or you wouldn't be asking yourself. I don't generally see an ENFP just going with social convention or the crowd more as I see them off doing their own thing.

the difference in this context between ENFPs (and other extroverted feelers, at that) and us IxTx's is the ENFPs et. al. seem to innately grasp social complexities and cultural norms just by being in it. personally, i don't even know them, let alone understand them, unless i go all anthropological on that culture's ass beforehand. sometimes (often?) they will deviate from the cultural expectation if they feel what is needed, but they uncannily absorb knowledge of societal norms by "osmosis". so while they definitely would go by the beat of their own drum, they still hold societal/cultural sensitivity in high regard within that desire from what i understand.

something that we tend to... not. ("oh, it's NOT normal to go three days without showering or eating while hunched over at my whiteboard? it's considered anti-social you say? huh... why?")
 

Poki

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the difference in this context between ENFPs (and other extroverted feelers, at that) and us IxTx's is the ENFPs et. al. seem to innately grasp social complexities and cultural norms just by being in it. personally, i don't even know them, let alone understand them, unless i go all anthropological on that culture's ass beforehand. sometimes (often?) they will deviate from the cultural expectation if they feel what is needed, but they uncannily absorb knowledge of societal norms by "osmosis". so while they definitely would go by the beat of their own drum, they still hold societal/cultural sensitivity in high regard within that desire from what i understand.

something that we tend to... not. ("oh, it's NOT normal to go three days without showering or eating while hunched over at my whiteboard? it's considered anti-social you say? huh... why?")

Yeah, that's a blessing and a flaw for ENFP, can trap them in shit as well as propel them in the right direction. Depends on the group really. I have witnessed one spiral down hill due to the group and alot of people commented that they became stupid. Pretty much same in reverse in regard to blessing and flaw. Not doing it is a blessing and a flaw for INTJ.

As an IxTx I am actually very aware of my surroundings and see exactly what society is and does, it's all analysis as I watch. I am a huge people watcher and see things for what it is in an un-judgemental nature. I am generally not comfortable just jumping in even though I am aware. I more pick and choose whether or not I want to. Combine that with shyness and it becomes a comfort thing as well. I can generally grasp the deeper things innately while ENFP becomes them innately. It's not only natural it's a huge joy and like role play to alot of ENFPs. It's a learning process, like I said before, it sucks when they sucked into crap because they can become the stupidity that surrounds them. Reverse of method actor. They are not stupid, just misdirected.
 

CO-in-Gnito

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Poki said:
As an IxTx I am actually very aware of my surroundings and see exactly what society is and does, it's all analysis as I watch. I am a huge people watcher and see things for what it is in an un-judgemental nature. I am generally not comfortable just jumping in even though I am aware.

but analysis != understanding, comprehension; "grok"king. you (we) may perfectly well SEE what people do. we may be able to categorize it and, generally for us intuitives, notice patterns emerge. hell, we could probably assimilate in and "act" as one of them, and perhaps even quite convincingly.

but WHY? why would we do that? why is it important?

it'd be inauthentic- we'd be facsimiles, clones. we won't intuitively understand *why* it's important to people, the subtlety of why they happen, the "point" or value of it. we won't be a part OF, just WITH. this is where the ENFP helps us- by drawing us in, we have a sort of lifeline- for the intuitives, the ENFP instills that "meta-value" of the culture/society in us and we go "hey, i kind of understand. can't put it into words, which feels super awkward, but i kind of get it now."

i'm not saying one among our kith and kin types won't ever be able to have that "AHA!" moment without an extroverted intuitive feeler, but by gum it sure helps. i can't speak how it'd be for you sensors, but that's what i was talking about from our perspective.
 

Poki

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but analysis != understanding, comprehension; "grok"king. you (we) may perfectly well SEE what people do. we may be able to categorize it and, generally for us intuitives, notice patterns emerge. hell, we could probably assimilate in and "act" as one of them, and perhaps even quite convincingly.

but WHY? why would we do that? why is it important?

it'd be inauthentic- we'd be facsimiles, clones. we won't intuitively understand *why* it's important to people, the subtlety of why they happen, the "point" or value of it. we won't be a part OF, just WITH. this is where the ENFP helps us- by drawing us in, we have a sort of lifeline- for the intuitives, the ENFP instills that "meta-value" of the culture/society in us and we go "hey, i kind of understand. can't put it into words, which feels super awkward, but i kind of get it now."

i'm not saying one among our kith and kin types won't ever be able to have that "AHA!" moment without an extroverted intuitive feeler, but by gum it sure helps. i can't speak how it'd be for you sensors, but that's what i was talking about from our perspective.


I learn people, always have. Understanding is a part of analysis that loops back in on itself. I don't really categorize much nor do I just notice the pattern. I piece it all together to create an understading. I strive and want to learn and understand everything. I have reverse engineered everything around me since I was little. As far back as I can remember.
 
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