INTJ and ISFP Relationships

[BadOctopus]

As an INTJ, I can make my own working definition of objective; but I'd be interested in hearing your definition as applied to her.
Hint: I think that differing definitions of 'objective' lead to conflicts between the INTJ and several other types.

When I say objective, I mean able to analyze things rationally and impartially, taking all factors into consideration without letting personal feelings get in the way. My sister can't do this. Like literally can't. I think her Introverted Feeling is so over-developed, it drowns out her Extraverted Sensing. As a result, she is unable, or unwilling, to consider any viewpoint or opinion which differs from her own.

 

[highlander]

Nice point about Nardi -- can you confirm, you are speaking of his studies where he wired up the heads of volunteers for EEGs and asked them to do various activities (the source of the famous INFP "Christmas tree" pattern and the INTJ "whole brain lights up in a single color indicative of expertise in an area")?

Second, for the purposes of the discussion, please differentiate between "brain functions" and "thought patterns" ? (Holds out plate like Oliver Twist "Sir, may I have more please?")
Yes, that question is non humorous. :hi:

On the eeg studies -the neuroscience of personality - yes.

 

[grey_beard]

When I say objective, I mean able to analyze things rationally and impartially, taking all factors into consideration without letting personal feelings get in the way. My sister can't do this. Like literally can't. I think her Introverted Feeling is so over-developed, it drowns out her Extraverted Sensing. As a result, she is unable, or unwilling, to consider any viewpoint or opinion which differs from her own.

Good, that's the right answer. /INTJ high-five>

Way to go, cuz.

 

[Coriolis]

As an INTJ, I can make my own working definition of objective; but I'd be interested in hearing your definition as applied to her.
Hint: I think that differing definitions of 'objective' lead to conflicts between the INTJ and several other types.

Are you suggesting that we cannot come up with a definition of objective that is, well, objective?

 

[grey_beard]

Are you suggesting that we cannot come up with a definition of objective that is, well, objective?

No -- it's that it depends if one is anchoring on physical facts, data, conditions (Te) or on social mores and strictures (Fe).

It's true that no amount of wishful thinking will abrogate the law of gravity; but it's also true that merely quoting numbers and logic at people won't overcome mass social trends. People (in groups) can be just as rigid as girders.

 

[chubber]

How can't you not understand each other if you guys have the same function and both of you are introverted?

They might have the same functions, but they don't mean the same thing in their positions.

INTJ: with their positions explained

Dominate, 1st) Ni
Auxiliary, 2nd) Te
Tertiary, 3rd) Fi
Inferior, 4th) Se

ISFP: Fi Se Ni Te (you get the point)
ESFP: Se Fi Te Ni

Applying it to the INTJ

Auxiliary supports the dominant function, e.g. Te supports Ni
Fi (is mentioned to appear child like), however Fi supports Se. (not the other way around)

Ni and Te is conscience, Se(4th) Fi(3rd), I changed the order on purpose, to show the shadow (notice it is ESFP, not ISFP). Also referred to as the unconscious, or the part of your personality that you despise (when younger). Jung said, that to become enlightened, one has to accept that side of their personality. Maturity can help, but a great deal of people never reaches it. His focus was to get people to accept that side, or become conscience and grow, with maturity.

Btw Jung did write the INTJ as Ni Te Se Fe... (I could be wrong here but I think Meyers changed it with decades of observation data) Jung also implied that there are more than the 16 types because of the function orders are different.

I'm only answering, the 4 functions that seems similar at first.

It is an interesting point. I recall Dario Nardi saying that when he did testing of brain patterns on INTJs and ISFPs, as they got older, it was hard to tell the difference between the two of them. They started looking alike.

I would guess, that if both were healthy then it could appear similar, even more so with INTJ and ESFP (just guessing)

 

[OrangeAppled]

Nice point about Nardi -- can you confirm, you are speaking of his studies where he wired up the heads of volunteers for EEGs and asked them to do various activities (the source of the famous INFP "Christmas tree" pattern and the INTJ "whole brain lights up in a single color indicative of expertise in an area")?

Second, for the purposes of the discussion, please differentiate between "brain functions" and "thought patterns" ? (Holds out plate like Oliver Twist "Sir, may I have more please?")
Yes, that question is non humorous. :hi:

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Why would I differentiate between those two phrases? That's not the point my post was making. The distinction is between what the EEG showed (physical patterns not very deep into the brain) vs a whole psychology.

Also, if the types became so similar in terms of personality, why would they still test as markedly different types and identify with different type descriptions? IMO, the ego is more about a whole mindset than specific brain functions. Im not saying they arent connected, and Nardi seems to be exploring how. But Jung wasnt describing brain functions, and that is not what the types are describing.

This is why skillset is not necessarily indicative of type, but why someone would choose to attain a skill might be.

 

[grey_beard]

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Why would I differentiate between those two phrases? That's not the point my post was making. The distinction is between what the EEG showed (physical patterns not very deep into the brain) vs a whole psychology.

Also, if the types became so similar in terms of personality, why would they still test as markedly different types and identify with different type descriptions? IMO, the ego is more about a whole mindset than specific brain functions. Im not saying they arent connected, and Nardi seems to be exploring how. But Jung wasnt describing brain functions, and that is not what the types are describing.

This is why skillset is not necessarily indicative of type, but why someone would choose to attain a skill might be.

I must need more sleep. I actually had to read that twice before it made sense: "brain functions" for your purposes meant "EEG" and "thought patterns" meant "ways of framing things, habitual *outlook*" ... the point at which the confusion occurred, was in the word "patterns" in "thought patterns" ... I first took that as "what pattern" showed up on Dardi's EEG (for example, INFP Christmas tree, or INTJ whole-brain-light-blue).

Carry on.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I'm certain I've talked about it in the past on this forum, but I've had a very fruitful relationship with an INTJ. We connected on our views and tastes. We did not connect on our wants - I wanted children one day, he did not. I always felt as though I had some of the most interesting and thoughtful conversations with him. I enjoyed hearing how he processed things. He states he found my emotional intelligence attractive. We also had a very similar sense of humor and I think we both felt we could be absolutely ridiculous around one another. Our romance didn't last (like I said, he had no desire for family so I broke it off), but we've maintained great friends. I consider him one of my best friends.

I've begun dating another INTJ. We both seem to be very attracted, but this one is less forthcoming or emotionally expressive. It's new, so I'm hoping to get the chance to see that side of him over time. Due to my feeling he is holding back, I've found I am unable to fully be myself around him. And I do worry this could become a hindrance to a blossoming relationship.

 

[Poki]

Ok well, I guess I'll explain that. The thing is that first girlfriend and I connected via email a few years ago and for some reason it caused me to go into an episode of depression for 8 - 10 months. I was literally staring at walls. It was something about reliving a past trauma, unresolved grief, etc. I have never experienced depression before so it threw me for a loop. It felt like getting hit by a truck. I disappeared from here for several months when it happened. I recall it was when Invisible Jim got banned. I missed that whole thing. No matter how hard I tried to understand and analyze my feelings, it was impossible to figure out. None of it made any logical sense. I guess emotions are truly not logical.

I think that sometimes people feel INTJs are hard asses and don't have feelings but you know I believe that we're actually quite vulnerable to getting hurt in the intimate relationship realm, sometimes with lasting effects, and that we may be especially vulnerable when we're young.

The funny thing with emotions is that it does follow logic, but its not objective, its subjective. Possibly an issue with Te objective logic applied to Fi subjective feelings. When dealing with subjective feelings you have to start with feelings for a person and build the logic on top of that as opposed to starting with data and working towards feelings.

 

[Poki]

When I say objective, I mean able to analyze things rationally and impartially, taking all factors into consideration without letting personal feelings get in the way. My sister can't do this. Like literally can't. I think her Introverted Feeling is so over-developed, it drowns out her Extraverted Sensing. As a result, she is unable, or unwilling, to consider any viewpoint or opinion which differs from her own.

Since I am just one letter off from ISFP, I can tell you we analyze by what we see and build an understanding. We also go in reverse and control our external world via what we understand. For me I process logically, external logic is just data points to consider and I don't take on logic directly . She would be like that with feelings. she would use feelings to process understand and control. I would say she is an individual person when it comes to what believes when it comes to thoughts. Also understand that feelings is a judgement. While I turn to logic and thought to understand feelings, she more then likely turns to feelings and her logic/thought is something taken "as-is". Feelings/thoughts have 2 different goals and priorities.

If she is anything like me everything has a grey scale, its not a simple pro/con list. Its a complicated overlapping of grey which is hard to explain and that grey scale is rebuilt for every situation do to all the different paths that can be taken. I am very stubborn on my view point, it gets processed analyzed and I make my own judgement and either integrate it into my view point or not. Depending on the topic I may not integrate anyones view points other then my own. I don't do "groupie" view points.

 

[Poki]

Auxiliary supports the dominant function, e.g. Te supports Ni
Fi (is mentioned to appear child like), however Fi supports Se. (not the other way around)

From personal experience, Aux supports Dom heavily. I actually push Ni back and rely on Se to get away from my own Ni. Its the whole concept of "Reality rules" and has the final say. Intuition is based off of data points, not enough or not the right data points and intuition is wrong. Due to the fact that I know and understand this I fall back to what I sense in reality(life in front of me) over intuition. Both feed into my Ti for a final decision. But if my senses say my intuition is off I have to keep digging and find the areas where intuition aligns with senses.

This is actually why I rely and heavily compare everything with reality as a final check as opposed to trying to fit reality into theory. I fit theory into reality and tweak theory.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] brought up the melancholy and sadness that INTJs can get trapped by at times. It sounds similar to the nostalgia trap I get into at times.

With Si in 8th position, it is the demon function for both INFJs and INTJs. Our memories are a trap and we get lost in them.

I am blessed with an amazing memory, but when I get fixated on things, it is ugly. I relive 30 year old events and try to reinterpret it and figure out things I missed years earlier. I do this over and over again, sometimes bringing a bit of what if into it and then I am lost.

I can't explain it much more, but it is very hard to break out of this loop.

Of course, trying to find personal triggers and childhood understanding sucked me so much.....ugh. I think I can take a break from the Si trap for awhile.....

 

[five sounds]

How can't you not understand each other if you guys have the same function and both of you are introverted?

like [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] said, i think it might have to do with the sensing/intuition breakdown. to me, even though we both have Fi, the ISFP i know seems to think and talk about much more tangible, concrete matters, while i tend toward the abstract and analytical. to both of us, the other seems somewhat trivial.

 

[Masokissed]

like [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] said, i think it might have to do with the sensing/intuition breakdown. to me, even though we both have Fi, the ISFP i know seems to think and talk about much more tangible, concrete matters, while i tend toward the abstract and analytical. to both of us, the other seems somewhat trivial.

What do you mean by abstract and analytical? Example?

 

[five sounds]

What do you mean by abstract and analytical? Example?

Her: talks about what people said and did at work. Goes into details about specifics of actions that she uses to draw conclusions about who and what is problematic.

Me: talks about the dynamics of the forces in my life and how they're effecting me. Goes into details about types of interactions and sources of support or taxation that I use to draw conclusions about what needs attention and what is going well.

 

[Masokissed]

Her: talks about what people said and did at work. Goes into details about specifics of actions that she uses to draw conclusions about who and what is problematic.

Me: talks about the dynamics of the forces in my life and how they're effecting me. Goes into details about types of interactions and sources of support or taxation that I use to draw conclusions about what needs attention and what is going well.

Alright, thanks. Seems to me that a lot of the Ns here spend more time talking about talking about N things than they talk about it. What you said you do still sounds foreign to me, maybe because I don't do it. I like to think about "N" stuff on my own more than I like to talk about it and this I've noticed with other SPs too and we can get annoyed if things stay there too long. It's like, "I get the point!".

 

[five sounds]

Alright, thanks. Seems to me that a lot of the Ns here spend more time talking about talking about N things than they talk about it. What you said you do still sounds foreign to me, maybe because I don't do it. I like to think about "N" stuff on my own more than I like to talk about it and this I've noticed with other SPs too and we can get annoyed if things stay there too long. It's like, "I get the point!".

yeah, i think it seems to SPs like we're not really talking about anything when to us we're digging into the meat of our thoughts.

i feel the same way listening to SPs. all those details that you all seem to go into are the things i casually pass through my brain on my own and feel no need to get into, because they only serve as bits of support to the actual point: which is the synthesis of the underlying themes of the tangible events.

iow, we each take the thing the other person spends their time picking apart for granted. i believe though that SPs can offer NPs a smack-in-the-face as far as how some things really are powerful on their own, and of the importance of dealing with the here and now as a way to effect change on the big picture. on the flip side, i think NPs can offer SPs some face-smackage about the larger patterns their events are showing, and how dealing with each one as an individual issue won't change the larger source of frustration.

am i making sense?

 

[Masokissed]

am i making sense?

Yesss.

 

[five sounds]

Yesss.

God bless you, my child!