INTJ and INFP Relationships

[PeaceBaby]

Great post, I very much enjoyed your thoughts.

Each of us may perceive reality in a different way, and this is a fine place to discuss the differences. IMO it's entirely out of place to say or imply that you see how reality actually is, whereas others merely frame reality in various ways.

Agreed.

That said, I'll mention that my INTJ wife, when I explained Reinin's Static/Dynamic dichotomy to her, expressed disbelief in the Static view. She couldn't imagine that anyone would see things that way.

I find this fascinating really. Both ways seem clear, in that I see the preferences leaning one way or the other for everyone - I can see who favors process and who's averse to it. But of real interest to me over the years is how unable those favoring the dynamic model seem to be at 'seeing' the existence (never-mind the legitimacy) of the static framework. I've wondered about this for a long time. When I was younger, I thought I must be broken or something to dislike process so intensely. I tried to twist and contort myself to be more process-oriented, figuring it might be something I could improve. Those favoring process, after all, are such outspoken advocates for it, and I grew up with two Pi dominant parents.

For the INFP (and seven other types), there's usually an interest in getting past the process (including any process of change) to the desired result or outcome.

Yes, absolutely - and that's the part I get stuck on as though it's unfair somehow - this seeming inability for 'process-people' to get the fact that half the world isn't wired that way. Why don't they get that?

I'm sure you're right. But it's still discouraging to me when, after a long effort, I finally reach the crest of a hill, only to see that the path goes on and on over more and more hills. Each time I near a crest, I'm thinking, "This may be it! Could be we've almost arrived at the place we were headed to." And then my heart sinks when it turns out the destination is still far off. It's immeasurably worse if pursuing the goal is like chasing the horizon or the end of the rainbow. Without the joy of arrival and the reward of resting on my laurels, no journey ever seems worthwhile to me.

I relate to this completely. The process seems to mean little if the destination or desired outcome is not reached. The process seems somewhat meaningless in and of itself. I seldom look back with nostalgia reflecting on the journey, it's more like, "Thank heavens I survived the work - the boredom, exhaustion, tedium and the grind of the process to get here." I'm all about maximizing the efficiency of the process to tighten up the timeframe whilst maintaining quality of the end result.

Yeah, some time long after the celebration, I'll probably grow tired of the plateau I've reached, and then I'll be ready for another journey. But that's for the future. And when that day comes, it'll feel to me like a brand-new journey, not part of some never-ending process.

Yep.

 

[Chickennugget]

my bestie is an intj... i get along really well with T's in general idk man. enfp thing?but the infps i know get along well with them but get hella emotional. then again, so do i hahaha.

 

[Poki]

I'm getting mightily tired of people in this forum claiming to know all about reality--and how their view of reality is "how it really is," while mine must be some kind of weird fairy tale or distorted misconception. I've gotten that from a few people just in the past week (all NTs, IIRC). Each of us may perceive reality in a different way, and this is a fine place to discuss the differences. IMO it's entirely out of place to say or imply that you see how reality actually is, whereas others merely frame reality in various ways.

Some of us know actually know how reality is. Its not a perception, perception requires a judgement of what something "means". But there are people who do not apply that judgement, they take it as data points and reality is "everything" that fits into those data points. So if I see someone crying, reality is that person is crying, trying to figure out what that "means" is where you jump into perception. Is she really sad or just putting on a show. Reality is concrete, we make it otherwise due to lack of enough data points and an attempt to try to understand. Reality is not reading between the lines, its staying on the line. It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and its nothing more then a perception.

 

[Patrick]

Some of us know actually know how reality is. Its not a perception, perception requires a judgement of what something "means". But there are people who do not apply that judgement, they take it as data points and reality is "everything" that fits into those data points. So if I see someone crying, reality is that person is crying, trying to figure out what that "means" is where you jump into perception. Is she really sad or just putting on a show. Reality is concrete, we make it otherwise due to lack of enough data points and an attempt to try to understand. Reality is not reading between the lines, its staying on the line. It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and its nothing more then a perception.

It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and it turns out to be nothing more than excessive trust in sensory input and data processing. IMO what you call reality is actually illusion. (See Plato on noumena vs phenomena.) And you're doing a lot more interpreting than you realize.

 

[Poki]

It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and it turns out to be nothing more than excessive trust in sensory input and data processing. IMO what you call reality is actually illusion. (See Plato on noumena vs phenomena.) And you're doing a lot more interpreting than you realize.

Read this

the noumenal realm was equated with the world of ideas known to the philosophical mind, in contrast to the phenomenal realm, which was equated with the world of sensory reality, known to the uneducated mind.[

Sounds like someone just trying to propogate N...LMAO. Let me rewrite it from a pure S point of view

the noumenal realm was equated with the world of ideas known to the headcases, in contrast to the phenomenal realm, which was equated with the world of sensory reality, known to the educated mind that is working to learn and understand what is.[

LMAO...gotta love perception.

Will read into it later, got a lot to do right now.

 

[miss fortune]

Maybe on some level that's true for everybody. But growth implies change, and people generally resist change. How many would pass up a shot at eternal bliss--a permanently static state that leaves one with no complaints whatsoever?

Besides, if you're in a process of growth, it means you're currently lacking; your full potential is always out of reach. Doesn't that sound frustrating?

Fairy tales end with "happily ever after"; the story doesn't go on from there. I think that implies that marriage, like heaven, is a state of eternal bliss. If real life isn't like that, I'm guessing many people wish it were.

*pokes*

are you a real person?

growth happens naturally... things happen and we adapt and grow to overcome them. if something occurs that you've never experienced before you will have to grow and adapt in order to deal with it and that's just how life tends to work. the need to grow isn't a sign of failure or lack of completion as a human being... it's simply a part of existing. it's the reason that our species flourishes... without growth there would be no life and without growth our brains and bodies would turn to mush.

the sign of a functional relationship is when you can both grow as people and still love who the other person is... when you can encourage the other to go for their dreams and get a degree or go for that promotion or learn something new and you support them and love them all the more for wanting to do something... for their passion.

nobody is perfect and nobody has all of the answers... therefore growth is necessary. if you accept what you are as your full potential you're going to stagnate and fall farther and farther behind and you won't DESERVE for anyone to love you

 

[Poki]

*pokes*

are you a real person?

growth happens naturally... things happen and we adapt and grow to overcome them. if something occurs that you've never experienced before you will have to grow and adapt in order to deal with it and that's just how life tends to work. the need to grow isn't a sign of failure or lack of completion as a human being... it's simply a part of existing. it's the reason that our species flourishes... without growth there would be no life and without growth our brains and bodies would turn to mush.

the sign of a functional relationship is when you can both grow as people and still love who the other person is... when you can encourage the other to go for their dreams and get a degree or go for that promotion or learn something new and you support them and love them all the more for wanting to do something... for their passion.

nobody is perfect and nobody has all of the answers... therefore growth is necessary. if you accept what you are as your full potential you're going to stagnate and fall farther and farther behind and you won't DESERVE for anyone to love you

I know when I use the phrase incompatible, it means you will spend so much time on relationship issues that you have a hard time growing and the best way that you grow is apart from the person.

 

[Patrick]

*pokes*

are you a real person?

Sometimes I wonder.

Yeah, I'm as real as anyone, but I'm extremely idealistic. The place where the rubber meets the road is the least interesting and most annoying place of all to me, so I try to stay above it--preferably in the driver's seat.

But sometimes I guess I float up higher than that. Sorry.

If you accept what you are as your full potential you're going to stagnate and fall farther and farther behind and you won't DESERVE for anyone to love you

However, I don't do that. If you think what I've been saying above has anything to do with "accept[ing] what [I am] as [my] full potential," you've got me all wrong. My potential--or anyone's--is, to my mind, a star to aim for.

To you, I guess that implies movement or growth--you're focusing on the process of getting to the star. But to me, the focus is on arrival at the star. I'm not there yet--not by a long shot--but I mean to get there, and I'm going to be ecstatically happy when I arrive.

It's the same process, whichever way you look at it. It has nothing to do with stagnating, but quite the opposite.

All I'm saying is that it'd be discouraging to me to picture the star as just "pie in the sky"--an ideal that will probably always be beyond my reach. For me to have any interest in the journey toward that star, I have to believe that someday I'll actually be there--I'll have fully realized all my potential, and I'll be delighted with it.

 

[miss fortune]

I know when I use the phrase incompatible, it means you will spend so much time on relationship issues that you have a hard time growing and the best way that you grow is apart from the person.

any relationship where "the state of the relationship" takes up intellectual energy is a waste of time in my book...

my sister makes that mistake on a regular basis... I don't want to have to think about "my relationship"... I wanna think about the person I'm with and what things I can do to make him happy (as long as he puts in a similar effort... if not, goodbye)

However, I don't do that. If you think what I've been saying above has anything to do with "accept[ing] what [I am] as [my] full potential," you've got me all wrong. My potential--or anyone's--is, to my mind, a star to aim for.

To you, I guess that implies movement or growth--you're focusing on the process of getting to the star. But to me, the focus is on arrival at the star. I'm not there yet--not by a long shot--but I mean to get there, and I'm going to be ecstatically happy when I arrive.

It's the same process, whichever way you look at it. It has nothing to do with stagnating, but quite the opposite.

All I'm saying is that it'd be discouraging to me to picture the star as just "pie in the sky"--an ideal that will probably always be beyond my reach. For me to have any interest in the journey toward that star, I have to believe that someday I'll actually be there--I'll have fully realized all my potential, and I'll be delighted with it.

to me, wishes without effort just brings to mind the glorious quote "if wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak"

I don't tend to focus on reaching my full potential or any of that sort of thing... I live and I try to do the best that I can... I try to always learn new things, be open to trying new ideas and making my loved people happy and maybe that's all that there is in life... there is no star glimmering in the distance to reach for because the point of life is to live

if I spent my time worrying about my potential I'd have already killed myself for that which I have squandered and squandered hard... I'm not an idealist, but I do just fine at getting by in life

 

[Patrick]

any relationship where "the state of the relationship" takes up intellectual energy is a waste of time in my book...

my sister makes that mistake on a regular basis... I don't want to have to think about "my relationship"... I wanna think about the person I'm with and what things I can do to make him happy (as long as he puts in a similar effort... if not, goodbye)

I usually feel that way too. My wife (whose type is INTJ) brings up issues pretty often and seems to treat life, relationships, and everything as series of problems to be solved. Because I love her, I do my best to connect and talk things over with her, but that kind of thinking is really pretty alien to me. I just want us to be together and live our lives as best we can. Shifting things to an intellectual level seems pointless to me.

to me, wishes without effort just brings to mind the glorious quote "if wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak"

I don't tend to focus on reaching my full potential or any of that sort of thing... I live and I try to do the best that I can... I try to always learn new things, be open to trying new ideas and making my loved people happy and maybe that's all that there is in life... there is no star glimmering in the distance to reach for because the point of life is to live

if I spent my time worrying about my potential I'd have already killed myself for that which I have squandered and squandered hard... I'm not an idealist, but I do just fine at getting by in life

Well, I agree with half of that but disagree with the other half. I agree that wishing doesn't accomplish anything. When I speak of reaching for a star or aspiring to achieve my full potential, it's not just a wish; I dedicate and apply myself to it.

But I can't relate to just "getting by" or living out this earthly life from day to day without giving a thought to anything higher. As I've said, I'm an extreme idealist--a fanatical pursuer of spiritual freedom and fulfillment.

If I thought for a moment that the daily grind and a handful of hedonistic sidelights (even along with learning something new each day) comprised the whole of human life, then I might be ready to kill myself. No, for me this physical world and this particular life span is just the tip of the iceberg; there's far more to life than what meets the eye.

That said, though, I'm sure balance is important. And the right way to live is different for each individual. Being lost in the clouds is as bad as being too deeply rooted in the earth.

 

[miss fortune]

[MENTION=4827]Patrick[/MENTION]

in the end isn't that what relationships are all about? finding someone who you are willing to compromise on things with?

as a strong P with a strong J, I've learned to do awful things like make lists and occasionally make a budget on paper and worse yet, every once in a while figure out where we're going to stay BEFORE we leave for a strange city

and I'm not saying that I merely get by going to work and coming home... I've learned to appreciate the simple things like the breeze that picks up after dark on a hot day or how the stars look like sharp pinpoints of light in the winter and how water sprays your face in a fine mist when you're riding in a boat... to me there is the here and the now and there's no guarantee that there will be a tomorrow and it's doubtful that there's anything after I'm done with this life, therefore I'd be wasting the wonders of the universe around me if I didn't enjoy them while I can, before once again joining them in a different state

... and now I realize we've seriously gone off topic... that's what you get for allowing P types to go around posting on a forum, I suppose

 

[Coriolis]

I think the difference can also be explained in terms of interaction styles. Chart-the-Course types (including INTJs) focus on process, while Behind-the-Scenes types (including INFPs) focus on outcomes. For the INFP (and seven other types), there's usually an interest in getting past the process (including any process of change) to the desired result or outcome.

IME, INTJs focus on results, not process. ENTJs also. We are often criticised for living by an "ends justify the means" philosophy.

 

[Poki]

as a strong P with a strong J, I've learned to do awful things like make lists and occasionally make a budget on paper and worse yet, every once in a while figure out where we're going to stay BEFORE we leave for a strange city

planning, whats that? We don't need no sticking plans, we just need a semi-half-ass direction with added fuzziness.

 

[Poki]

IME, INTJs focus on results, not process. ENTJs also. We are often criticised for living by an "ends justify the means" philosophy.

My philosophy is, it doesn't matter what the outcome is as long as you enjoy the process. Plus despite the outcome you learn a lot in the process, I don't just mean learn from your screw ups how to succeed next time. I mean get an understanding of how things work. Like if you take the wrong path, you not only learn what path to take, you learn everything along the other path. I do that at work. I go down a path and then throw my work away because I learned how it works and people try to figure out how I know as much as I do. Because I go down paths irregardless of outcome, to learn and understand, not with sole purpose of accomplishing something, but to figure out how it all works and ties together.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

planning, whats that? We don't need no sticking plans, we just need a semi-half-ass direction with added fuzziness.

Agreed!

Goal > Plan People get overly attached to their well laid plans which just adds unnecessary stress when LIFE happens and your plans go to shit. The ability to adapt and change direction as/when needed is a very useful life skill.

 

[Patrick]

IME, INTJs focus on results, not process. ENTJs also. We are often criticised for living by an "ends justify the means" philosophy.

Well, it gets complicated. There's no point in having a process without a goal or vice versa. Here's what Linda Berens says about the INTJ's Chart-the-Course style:

Chart-the-Courseâ„¢
(Drive to get a desired result)The theme is having a course of action to follow. People of this style focus on knowing what to do and keeping themselves, the group, or the project on track. They prefer to enter a situation having an idea of what is to happen. They identify a process to accomplish a goal and have a somewhat contained tension as they work to create and monitor a plan. The aim is not the plan itself, but to use it as a guide to move things along toward the goal. Their informed and deliberate decisions are based on analyzing, outlining, conceptualizing or foreseeing what needs to be done.
- See more at: Interaction Styles

But she also says INTJs (and other C-t-C types) focus more on process than outcome when interacting. That's just one of three components of an interaction style, though:

Directing versus Informing communications—ways we influence others
Initiating versus Responding roles—ways to define relationships
Outcome versus Process focus—where we focus our attention when interacting - See more at: Interaction Styles

INTJs are directing, responding, and focused on process.

INFPs are informing, responding, and focused on outcome.

 

[PeaceBaby]

IME, INTJs focus on results, not process. ENTJs also. We are often criticised for living by an "ends justify the means" philosophy.

Focussing on results does not negate being process-oriented.

 

[Poki]

Agreed!

Goal > Plan People get overly attached to their well laid plans which just adds unnecessary stress when LIFE happens and your plans go to shit. The ability to adapt and change direction as/when needed is a very useful life skill.

Oh well, I don't really have much goals either I have wants which give me somewhat of a direction. Like my house remodel, no real goals set or defined. I just push and move, we will see how it looks when I am done. Despite lack of goals, I have accomplished more in the 11 months I have lived here then most would have in a several years.

If you would judge me by "Te" ways of doing things I would be a total and utter failure. If you judge me by just results though its a completely different picture and I earn the respect of the strongest Te users and actually get them to see that another way of life can accomplish things the same. Its how I earn respect from Te, its one of trust because they don't know how the hell I can go through life the way I do, but it works.

While this should be in the INFP/ISTP thread. That's the issue I have with INFPs in relationships. Its not huge, but causes a lot of problems at first and then becomes trivial. but due to my lack of Te I can stress them out until they realize that I actually accomplish the same thing, just in a different way. I think that's one issue with Te vs Ti and Fe vs Fi. Different ways of going through life, but similar outcomes as long as strength of function is same. Strong Te and Strong Ti will respect each other. Strong Te and Weak Ti will cause issues as well as Weak Te and Strong Ti, I am not referring to order of Te/Ti, but how good we are at utilizing it.

 

[Poki]

INFPs are informing, responding, and focused on outcome.

Ps usually tend to focus on outcome when in a stressed situation. When not stressed we usually just go with the flow because we don't worry about outcome.
Js focus on process when stressed. When not stressed they don't really worry about process much. If you produce the desired results that a J wants they don't care about process, its when you don't they stress over process. Or if the J is stressed from things outside of you, they will focus on process because they are stressed and things need to run smooth due to fear of screwed up outcome. The become controlling.

This is what I have noticed

 

[PeaceBaby]

Ps usually tend to focus on outcome when in a stressed situation. When not stressed we usually just go with the flow because we don't worry about outcome.
Js focus on process when stressed. When not stressed they don't really worry about process much. If you produce the desired results that a J wants they don't care about process, its when you don't they stress over process. Or if the J is stressed from things outside of you, they will focus on process because they are stressed and things need to run smooth due to fear of screwed up outcome. The become controlling.

This is what I have noticed

Remember when you were renovating and you talked about smashing a wall down with your INTJ Dad (I think, sorry if I remember the details incorrectly)? You didn't care how you smashed it down, you just wanted it out of the way, and you picked up the handiest tool to do the job and wham, mission accomplished. A J-type, generally however, will focus on how to get the wall down, will consider all of the details first of that. The consider what process they will use to get there.

In the meantime, you've picked up the sledgehammer and the point is moot. Wall - gone.

That's how I see the difference - you and I don't care about how it gets done, but if we get it done expediently or cleverly, more points for us. You enjoy the process far more than I do, I think, but that doesn't change where your energy comes from. J-types are more about "we have to do this, HOW will we do it". Both styles consider the goal and the process, but one reigns more dominant from the focus perspective So, you did indeed care that the wall was taken down, it was in your loosely laid plans. And if that demolition process had gone badly, you may have just adapted your plan to suit the circumstance and make a new goal. J-s (generally) take more care to ensure the process leads to the desired outcome.

That's kind of how I see it, anyway - what do you think?