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Thread: INTJ and INFP Relationships

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.
    Yea i hate this. I always tell my INTJ friend when he makes some argument that goes against mine without being able to give any rationale to back it up, that "your argument means nothing unless you can explain it properly and give reasons or some logic to back it up". Usually its the case that i can see 10 reasons why his argument is invalid and can clearly see why he made that sort of mistake, but because he doesent see the logic behind his own argument, but more like just feels its the right thing, its nearly impossible to turn his head around and make him change his stance on the subject, no matter how well i explain all the reasons he is wrong. I think NFJs(at least INFJs) are more rational than INTJs about this sort of stuff because they use Ti and thus are more capable of changing their stance if reasons are given.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Array Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @OrangeAppled, @chubber --
    How much do you think that's an NF thing and how much a 4 thing? I'm 5w4 and I find I can muster very little energy or enthusiasm for mowing the grass or changing the cat's litter box.
    Mundane *numerical* tasks such as bills or recording payments, investments, and the like, I do *to relax*. Or grocery shopping, which takes creativity and optimization.
    Any insights from the NF side of the fence?
    My INTJ wife is also a 5w4 (I think; she might disagree, but she rarely gets very interested in this stuff), and I could see her saying the same thing you say above.

    I guess I'd have to give her credit for also being motivated by what seems meaningful. Yet, there are places where we always clash and have trouble seeing eye to eye.

    The biggest one comes down to T versus F, I think. She has expressed a wish to improve our relationship and our life, and I share that sentiment with her. But when we were talking about it yesterday, she said, "I'd like you to get your thoughts together and come up with a list of three things you'd like to see change over the next six months."

    The first part of that ("get your thoughts together") comes from her having learned that I'm slower than she is. With me, everything sort of emerges over time, and I don't pay attention to how much time it's taking. In contrast, she's quick; she could come up with a list of three things instantly (and she did go on to name one or two things). So, she was compromising with my style--giving me the time she figured I'd need.

    The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

    I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to her request. I don't want to squash her idea; I know it's well-intentioned. But the moment I start hemming and hawing and trying to explain my Feeling-based viewpoint, she's going to start thinking I reject her idea and don't really want us to make any progress. What I really want to say is that, for me, it can't be neatly measured progress; it has to just evolve. But unfortunately, I know that for her it does have to be measured progress; otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

    So, I have to swallow my pride and consider how much I'm willing to change. To meet her halfway, I have to somehow make peace with the numbers. But I also have to somehow get it across that I'm more concerned with how we feel about each other than with what actually happens.

    Another facet of it is TJ versus FP. These types have almost opposite ways of dealing with conflict. The TJ wants to get things out in the open, deal with them, and have done with the issue once and for all. The FP wants to avoid conflict in the first place; and if it arises, to smooth it over and replace it with harmonious feelings and ongoing discussion. Hence, my wife is always bringing up issues we need to deal with, and I'm always shrugging and insisting that everything is evolving just as it needs to.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  3. #53
    Senior Member Array Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Yea i hate this. I always tell my INTJ friend when he makes some argument that goes against mine without being able to give any rationale to back it up, that "your argument means nothing unless you can explain it properly and give reasons or some logic to back it up"
    That probably works better with a friend than with a spouse. I'm married to an INTJ, so I can't get away with that.

    Furthermore, I can see that it hurts her when someone says that sort of thing, and I don't want to hurt her. So, I give her the benefit of the doubt when I can. I raise a question or two if I feel I need to, but mostly I try to go along with her; and then, if something isn't working, I suggest alternatives (my aux Ne is good at coming up with those).

    On the other side of the coin, I find that sometimes she really does intuitively grasp something in an instant that I'm slow at wrapping my mind around. She can't articulate what she sees in her mind--not well enough to make me see it too--but later on I find out that she was right about it in the first place. If I had just shrugged and done it her way, things would have worked out better; we would have avoided some problem that came up and had to be dealt with.

    So, listening and going along with her sometimes does pay off, even though it seems illogical at first.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  4. #54
    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    My INTJ wife is also a 5w4 (I think; she might disagree, but she rarely gets very interested in this stuff), and I could see her saying the same thing you say above.

    I guess I'd have to give her credit for also being motivated by what seems meaningful. Yet, there are places where we always clash and have trouble seeing eye to eye.

    The biggest one comes down to T versus F, I think. She has expressed a wish to improve our relationship and our life, and I share that sentiment with her. But when we were talking about it yesterday, she said, "I'd like you to get your thoughts together and come up with a list of three things you'd like to see change over the next six months."

    The first part of that ("get your thoughts together") comes from her having learned that I'm slower than she is. With me, everything sort of emerges over time, and I don't pay attention to how much time it's taking. In contrast, she's quick; she could come up with a list of three things instantly (and she did go on to name one or two things). So, she was compromising with my style--giving me the time she figured I'd need.

    The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

    I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to her request. I don't want to squash her idea; I know it's well-intentioned. But the moment I start hemming and hawing and trying to explain my Feeling-based viewpoint, she's going to start thinking I reject her idea and don't really want us to make any progress. What I really want to say is that, for me, it can't be neatly measured progress; it has to just evolve. But unfortunately, I know that for her it does have to be measured progress; otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

    So, I have to swallow my pride and consider how much I'm willing to change. To meet her halfway, I have to somehow make peace with the numbers. But I also have to somehow get it across that I'm more concerned with how we feel about each other than with what actually happens.

    Another facet of it is TJ versus FP. These types have almost opposite ways of dealing with conflict. The TJ wants to get things out in the open, deal with them, and have done with the issue once and for all. The FP wants to avoid conflict in the first place; and if it arises, to smooth it over and replace it with harmonious feelings and ongoing discussion. Hence, my wife is always bringing up issues we need to deal with, and I'm always shrugging and insisting that everything is evolving just as it needs to.
    Let me see if I can translate. (I don't want to step into someone else's marriage; but on the other hand, I don't merely play an INTJ 5w4 on TV...I *am* one.)

    Are there things about her mannerism or style...are there *habits* -- think of the confession in the Catholic Church ("We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done") -- which positively drive you *nuts* ?1

    It may be an underlying approach or attitude (as you say, bringing up issues vs shrugging and insisting)... or it may be "condensing to a point" vs. "exploring the feelings and ramifications").
    Are there things you wish to find or share or experience with her, or in her daily behavior, which just *aren't* there?
    Efficiency, as she understands it, may be one thing...but so is the proverbial "taking time to smell the flowers" : to take time to just breathe, and enjoy the blue sky and the fresh wind; to savor a favorite lunch, or enjoy the cool down and stretching after a workout -- instead of just rushing on to the next appointed task(TM).

    Consider it in that light -- things that are like a pebble in your shoe, like the garment tag on the inside of a shirt scratching your neck -- that if you thought about it, would reduce considerably your dissatisfaction.

    That's the best I can get to being non-5w4 about it. Maybe some other INFPs who are more used to INTJs from the *outside*, can take it from here.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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    Senior Member Array ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.
    I would ask this. But I'm not a 5w4. And I don't have an INFP, I have an ENFJ 9w8 and he is an engineer. So he isn't so offended if I were to apply numbers to human relations, we apply numbers to everything. He would be more upset if I gave him the 3-6 months. He would take that as me not being as concerned as I should be about something in our relationship or life, especially if I brought it up. I wouldn't do this either because I'm an 8w9 and I would probably say - you have 5 minutes - GO!

    I kid. I'm not that bad. 15 minutes.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  6. #56
    failed poetry slam career Array chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @OrangeAppled, @chubber --
    How much do you think that's an NF thing and how much a 4 thing? I'm 5w4 and I find I can muster very little energy or enthusiasm for mowing the grass or changing the cat's litter box.
    Mundane *numerical* tasks such as bills or recording payments, investments, and the like, I do *to relax*. Or grocery shopping, which takes creativity and optimization.
    Any insights from the NF side of the fence?
    In my case, I automate as much as I can, the bills, grocery shopping, bulk buy.

    Grocery shopping, weekly goods (fresh produce), and cleaning the apartment is mundane I'm terrible at doing that. That's where my ISTJ brother and my ESFJ ex were brilliant with cleaning. I've wondered about my own cleaning habits and I only clean the most important stuff near to me. Unlike my brother, who cleans everything and has it's place and structured.

    Shopping for me, I usually plan ahead what I want, I know where the items are located and only go after what I wanted. When I went with the INFP, she would encourage me to try something else, then I stop resisting, but then I turn into the ESFP and everything shiny I want to try and I buy too much of something I've never tried. Then she gets mad and turns into the ESTJ which then orders and talks down to me. Because now she reminds me of why I shouldn't be buying 10 items of something I might not even like and to cut my over indulging out.

    It's a vicious cycle, but also never a dull moment.

    What I've also noticed is this selective memory that xNFPs have, very much like some would mention about xSTJs. they only hear what they want to hear. They take "something said about A and B in context 1" and "something said about C and D in context 2" and comes out as "something said about A and D in context 3". I have to wonder what I am saying that makes them perceive it that way. I'm guessing it could be because they get angry in the process and then associate/categorised it differently.

    The other problem, xNTJ appears cold towards xNFPs, and especially INFPs can't really handle the coldness. So I can only see the INFP handle the INTJ when the INTJ isn't really an INTJ, so what is really fair? There will always be that fight and the INTJ will also expect the INFP to handle coldness, not give up (which the xNTJ perceives as, where they, the INFP, moved on already. aka perspective), which they can't. So who is wrong, neither.

    Thing is, @OrangeAppled is romanticising the "play" Ne/Ni which is untrue, it is literally disagreements. That could be stemming from her Fi fantasising it. So I'm just out to stop it, it's selling the untrue Fairytale Disney dream. (INTJ selling doom and gloom again?) I would like to think I'm being realistic. The play between Ne/Ni is fun'ish, but the INFP's Ne is their Auxiliary and it will not be the same as the ENFP's Ne-Dom that can put up with much longer of Ni. Eventually the INTJ will have to use Te and then the INFP will ... well die inside. They will make everything personal and think it is their fault, when the INTJ is merely discussing objectively, which allows to make tough decisions easier.

    I wonder if this is what @Zarathustra meant, why INFPs are annoying.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Array Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    What I've also noticed is this selective memory that xNFPs have, very much like some would mention about xSTJs. they only hear what they want to hear. They take "something said about A and B in context 1" and "something said about C and D in context 2" and comes out as "something said about A and D in context 3". I have to wonder what I am saying that makes them perceive it that way. I'm guessing it could be because they get angry in the process and then associate/categorised it differently.
    As an INFP, I'd say it's just that when you say something "about A and B in context 1," we hear only "something said in context 1." And when you say something "about C and D in context 2," we only hear "something said in context 2." Furthermore, our memory of the context is mainly of our emotional experience; so no matter what the circumstances were or what was actually said, we only remember that you were being nice or mean or picky or reassuring or whatever. Hence, context 1 and context 2 might look the same to us, though they look different to you. By the time we get to context 3, that's probably just a vague impression of how you've been in the past, how you're being now, and how we feel. As to what you actually said--well, words are slippery anyway; each one has a range of possible meaning, so it's best not to take A, B, C, or D too literally.

    I would guess it's very different for xSTJs. They may do the opposite: When you say something "about A and B in context 1," they hear only A and B; and when you say something "about C and D in context 2," they only hear C and D. What was said is what was said and shouldn't be connected to context at all; so it's fair to talk about "A and D in context 3" or any other irrelevant context.


    Edit: I meant the above as an off-the-cuff, almost tongue-in-cheek reply. Please don't take it as a serious analysis of what happens with the types in question.
    Last edited by Patrick; 07-01-2015 at 07:41 PM. Reason: to clarify the mood and intent
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

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    Senior Member Array Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    My INTJ wife is also a 5w4 (I think; she might disagree, but she rarely gets very interested in this stuff), and I could see her saying the same thing you say above.

    I guess I'd have to give her credit for also being motivated by what seems meaningful. Yet, there are places where we always clash and have trouble seeing eye to eye.

    The biggest one comes down to T versus F, I think. She has expressed a wish to improve our relationship and our life, and I share that sentiment with her. But when we were talking about it yesterday, she said, "I'd like you to get your thoughts together and come up with a list of three things you'd like to see change over the next six months."

    The first part of that ("get your thoughts together") comes from her having learned that I'm slower than she is. With me, everything sort of emerges over time, and I don't pay attention to how much time it's taking. In contrast, she's quick; she could come up with a list of three things instantly (and she did go on to name one or two things). So, she was compromising with my style--giving me the time she figured I'd need.

    The second part ("three things ... six months") nearly shut down my attention completely. She's talking about human relations, but somehow she's trying to apply numbers to it--and in my mind, that seems incongruous. Numbers are for things like money and physical measurements; they have nothing to do with people. Chances are I'll never be able to come up with a list of three things, and I'll probably be oblivious to the passage of six months.

    I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to her request. I don't want to squash her idea; I know it's well-intentioned. But the moment I start hemming and hawing and trying to explain my Feeling-based viewpoint, she's going to start thinking I reject her idea and don't really want us to make any progress. What I really want to say is that, for me, it can't be neatly measured progress; it has to just evolve. But unfortunately, I know that for her it does have to be measured progress; otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

    So, I have to swallow my pride and consider how much I'm willing to change. To meet her halfway, I have to somehow make peace with the numbers. But I also have to somehow get it across that I'm more concerned with how we feel about each other than with what actually happens.

    Another facet of it is TJ versus FP. These types have almost opposite ways of dealing with conflict. The TJ wants to get things out in the open, deal with them, and have done with the issue once and for all. The FP wants to avoid conflict in the first place; and if it arises, to smooth it over and replace it with harmonious feelings and ongoing discussion. Hence, my wife is always bringing up issues we need to deal with, and I'm always shrugging and insisting that everything is evolving just as it needs to.
    I'm an INTJ science / maths trained, and I find it really easy to function in that way, getting lists of tasks, getting motivated, getting things done, then take a rest. The J kind of method. No opinions of my own on anything but just solving physics and maths questions (I'm a teacher).

    Now I'm taking a course to train for lay ministry in the church, theology, essay based and for that I have to read, compare ideas, consider my own views, mesh it together and argue from different viewpoints and compare and contrast. And funnily enough I am finding that the easiest, dare I say the most efficient way of doing this effectively appears to be exactly this route of *feeling it out*, letting it evolve, develop and take its own time. I can't organise it nor enforce it. Sometimes it needs a day to rest, and there is no point in arguing. Sometimes I read and it feels like I learnt nothing...but then days later the brain just says 'ready to write it' and I start writing what seems to be formless rubbish, but then it somehow shapes itself into a structure of its own, it emerges. Truly, I'm becoming an Arts student. And the INTJ part of me is trying now to help this process by saying things like

    Aren't you ready yet...the deadline is way off...(unhelpful)
    You did well yesterday, take a rest (helpful)

    So it is like I have the whole dialogue, both INFP and INTJ in my head! Fortunately INTJ is charmed by the newness of all this, and keen to help, and is okay with stepping back and letting it emerge now that the first few essays have gone okay. But INTJ has to know the deadlines, watch anxiously...just the usual INTJ behaviour...


  9. #59
    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    In my case, I automate as much as I can, the bills, grocery shopping, bulk buy.

    Grocery shopping, weekly goods (fresh produce), and cleaning the apartment is mundane I'm terrible at doing that. That's where my ISTJ brother and my ESFJ ex were brilliant with cleaning. I've wondered about my own cleaning habits and I only clean the most important stuff near to me. Unlike my brother, who cleans everything and has it's place and structured.

    Shopping for me, I usually plan ahead what I want, I know where the items are located and only go after what I wanted. When I went with the INFP, she would encourage me to try something else, then I stop resisting, but then I turn into the ESFP and everything shiny I want to try and I buy too much of something I've never tried. Then she gets mad and turns into the ESTJ which then orders and talks down to me. Because now she reminds me of why I shouldn't be buying 10 items of something I might not even like and to cut my over indulging out.

    It's a vicious cycle, but also never a dull moment.
    Now that's odd. I go shopping too, but my ...is it my Fi? No, it's my sx kicks in, and I buy too much of something new. (But that's OK, I stockpile and use; except for fresh vegetables, which are cheap, I rarely need to throw something out.) And if it works, I incorporate it into my world. See also baleen whale, ingesting vast quantities and keeping the tasty plankton...

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    What I've also noticed is this selective memory that xNFPs have, very much like some would mention about xSTJs. they only hear what they want to hear. They take "something said about A and B in context 1" and "something said about C and D in context 2" and comes out as "something said about A and D in context 3". I have to wonder what I am saying that makes them perceive it that way. I'm guessing it could be because they get angry in the process and then associate/categorised it differently.
    While I can comprehend this -- the "categorizing by felt intensity along related *emotional* axes...and then the mis-filing corrupts the memory itself, because 'well, that's how it _affected_ me' " --
    I think it would drive my analytical memory clinically insane: like Sheldon in that episode of Big Bang Theory where Amy tries to correct his OCD but deliberately leaving things undone...

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    The other problem, xNTJ appears cold towards xNFPs, and especially INFPs can't really handle the coldness. So I can only see the INFP handle the INTJ when the INTJ isn't really an INTJ, so what is really fair? There will always be that fight and the INTJ will also expect the INFP to handle coldness, not give up (which the xNTJ perceives as, where they, the INFP, moved on already. aka perspective), which they can't. So who is wrong, neither.
    Huh. Filing for reference, revisiting memories of past interactions, furiously scribbling notes. Te is kind of a buzzkill to warm fuzzies, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Thing is, @OrangeAppled is romanticising the "play" Ne/Ni which is untrue, it is literally disagreements. That could be stemming from her Fi fantasising it. So I'm just out to stop it, it's selling the untrue Fairytale Disney dream. (INTJ selling doom and gloom again?) I would like to think I'm being realistic. The play between Ne/Ni is fun'ish, but the INFP's Ne is their Auxiliary and it will not be the same as the ENFP's Ne-Dom that can put up with much longer of Ni. Eventually the INTJ will have to use Te and then the INFP will ... well die inside. They will make everything personal and think it is their fault, when the INTJ is merely discussing objectively, which allows to make tough decisions easier.
    Only experience I've had was chasing Ne around like...well, I've said it too often already. But after a time, Ni wants it some Te for a change of pace; and I surmise, that the INFP wants some Fi to recharge. And yes, those could be at cross-purposes, unless the two ...combatants? each retire to their separate corners...

    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    I wonder if this is what @Zarathustra meant, why INFPs are annoying.
    My time here didn't overlap with @Zarathustra much, but I think I remember in visiting some long-mummified threads, that he was romantically entwined with an INFP once upon time. Apologies if such is too personal or taboo to mention on this site, for reasons of old politics which I wasn't around for...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #60
    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    I'm an INTJ science / maths trained, and I find it really easy to function in that way, getting lists of tasks, getting motivated, getting things done, then take a rest. The J kind of method. No opinions of my own on anything but just solving physics and maths questions (I'm a teacher).

    Now I'm taking a course to train for lay ministry in the church, theology, essay based and for that I have to read, compare ideas, consider my own views, mesh it together and argue from different viewpoints and compare and contrast. And funnily enough I am finding that the easiest, dare I say the most efficient way of doing this effectively appears to be exactly this route of *feeling it out*, letting it evolve, develop and take its own time. I can't organise it nor enforce it. Sometimes it needs a day to rest, and there is no point in arguing. Sometimes I read and it feels like I learnt nothing...but then days later the brain just says 'ready to write it' and I start writing what seems to be formless rubbish, but then it somehow shapes itself into a structure of its own, it emerges. Truly, I'm becoming an Arts student. And the INTJ part of me is trying now to help this process by saying things like

    Aren't you ready yet...the deadline is way off...(unhelpful)
    You did well yesterday, take a rest (helpful)

    So it is like I have the whole dialogue, both INFP and INTJ in my head! Fortunately INTJ is charmed by the newness of all this, and keen to help, and is okay with stepping back and letting it emerge now that the first few essays have gone okay. But INTJ has to know the deadlines, watch anxiously...just the usual INTJ behaviour...

    When it's ready to be written, you'll know. It *needs* to come out. (Having written essays of mine own, under internal compulsion.)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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