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  1. #41
    Senior Member Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    And as I get older, I find a lot of enjoyment in sharpening those functions. I take a lot of pride in getting those functions up and running and being a good Leader. ...

    Any couples dance is good. But Swing is fast and spinning (good for Se) and has lots of programmed steps to learn (good for Si); you just string them together into longer routines (Te planning).
    My wife put you up to posting that, didn't she?


    Thanks. For some reason, though, I don't take pride in strengthening weak functions; on the contrary, I find it makes me more and more uncomfortable--pushes me into places I just don't want to go. (I just took a DISC test the other day, and I scored 99 in Cautious and about 89 in Stable, but only about 14 in Decisive and 21 in Interactive. I do not do well being the leader, taking the initiative, or pulling myself up by my bootstraps.)

    All my life I've said that there are two jobs/careers I'd never want to have: farming and sales/marketing. So of course my wife gets big into gardening and starts her own business. Like it or not, if I want to be with her and be helpful, I end up doing what seems to me like farming and sales/marketing.

    I've also said that there's one thing I'd never want to do for recreation: dancing. I don't see the point in it, don't much like to watch others doing it, and don't have any interest in it. The closest I come is standing up and swaying to the music at a rock concert. The few times I've actually been on a dance floor (many years ago), I was either embarrassed or drunk or both.

    But my wife would like to take up dancing. She has brought it up a number of times, and once I went so far as to take her to an introductory Arthur Murray class. It went badly, though. For me it was a romantic thing, but to her it was more a way to just move and have fun. I was also clumsy; I heard the music differently than others, i guess, and I couldn't identify the strong beat I was supposed to be moving to.

    We also took a tai chi class together a couple times. That was better, but I didn't have the patience for it and couldn't stick with it.

    My favorite recreational activities would be long, slow, repetitious things like canoeing/kayaking, bicycling, hiking, or cross-country skiing. We've done all those things together at times, but she doesn't love them, and we're both such homebodies that we rarely seem to get around to such activities anyhow.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  2. #42
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Yes, we're both Responders (an interaction-style term), and that can be a big problem. Neither of us wants to take the initiative, so we wait for each other, and long periods of time go by without anything ever happening. One of us has to go "out of character" and force an issue before action can take place.

    She's got the Directing style (another interaction-style term), so she ends up being the one to break down and take the initiative most of the time. But she resents it because she believes in traditional gender roles: I'm the guy, so I ought to be the one to make the first move. Unfortunately, I often just can't do it. Worse, I sometimes react negatively to her initiating: her Directing style sounds bossy to me, and I resent it, wishing she'd take a softer approach.
    Interesting. I am surprised that an INTJ would favor traditional gender roles vs. going her own way, even if that ends up looking like a traditional role in the end. For instance, I prefer men make the first move as well, but because I am a fairly strong introvert, not because I am female. I prefer female friends take the initiative as well. My longtime SO is an INTP so there is much of the same dynamic. I end up taking the initative on many things, and sometimes resent that I have to do it so much. On the other hand, I can plan or organize things in a heartbeat, so I recognize the efficiency of it. If it is one way for each of us to do what we do best in the relationship, then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    The Thinking-vs-Feeling difference is another big factor. She regularly accuses me of not listening or not being able to follow instructions, and I regularly accuse her of being inconsiderate or uncooperative. When we were first married, I believed that rational T part of her was just a sham and that underneath she was of course a warm F-type person. I think I spent a few years expecting and assuming that she'd change (i.e., become more like me); and then I read Keirsey's book Please Understand Me II and learned that it wasn't gonna happen.
    Nope. We are not warm F-types underneath it all just because we are women. T women are still T, and I find that says far more about our motivations and thought processes than our gender does.

    Interesting also about the dancing and gardening. I have tried to get my SO to do dancing lessons, simply as a physical activity we can do together. No dice. But he is the big gardener in the relationship. I enjoy it, too, but am usually too busy doing other things. Now as for sales and marketing, neither of us will touch that with the proverbial ten-foot pole.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    My wife put you up to posting that, didn't she?


    Thanks. For some reason, though, I don't take pride in strengthening weak functions; on the contrary, I find it makes me more and more uncomfortable--pushes me into places I just don't want to go. (I just took a DISC test the other day, and I scored 99 in Cautious and about 89 in Stable, but only about 14 in Decisive and 21 in Interactive. I do not do well being the leader, taking the initiative, or pulling myself up by my bootstraps.)

    All my life I've said that there are two jobs/careers I'd never want to have: farming and sales/marketing. So of course my wife gets big into gardening and starts her own business. Like it or not, if I want to be with her and be helpful, I end up doing what seems to me like farming and sales/marketing.

    I've also said that there's one thing I'd never want to do for recreation: dancing. I don't see the point in it, don't much like to watch others doing it, and don't have any interest in it. The closest I come is standing up and swaying to the music at a rock concert. The few times I've actually been on a dance floor (many years ago), I was either embarrassed or drunk or both.

    But my wife would like to take up dancing. She has brought it up a number of times, and once I went so far as to take her to an introductory Arthur Murray class. It went badly, though. For me it was a romantic thing, but to her it was more a way to just move and have fun. I was also clumsy; I heard the music differently than others, i guess, and I couldn't identify the strong beat I was supposed to be moving to.

    We also took a tai chi class together a couple times. That was better, but I didn't have the patience for it and couldn't stick with it.

    My favorite recreational activities would be long, slow, repetitious things like canoeing/kayaking, bicycling, hiking, or cross-country skiing. We've done all those things together at times, but she doesn't love them, and we're both such homebodies that we rarely seem to get around to such activities anyhow.
    I can sympathize with a lot of what you said. I've never liked free-form dancing, such as getting up and bopping in place at a club or concert. That sort of dancing is too Se for me. I just think it's boring, because I'm not musical enough or coordinated enough to just "move with the music."

    On the other hand, I have found that I like "couples dancing" with programmed dance steps. It's more cerebral (Si), and I can tackle it almost as a math problem. I can sit down, work out counts for where my feet and hands should be for each beat, and then practice it till I can do it at full speed to the music. Si is a weak function for me, so it doesn't come easy or natural. I really have to study the steps and crack them like a code. But like I said, I've come to enjoy working with Si and Te as a personal challenge, and "couples dancing" feeds into that.

    In fact, once my Si is strong enough with a step or a dance, I can even start tapping into some Se. I hit a point where I can start feeling the kinetics of the dance and can tell from "feel" alone what I should be doing with that dance. So there's always new stuff going on with each dance; if I keep at it, it stays fresh.

    Also, you mention beat: With some dances the beat can be difficult to find. A lot of the ballroom dances are that way for beginners. And the beat can be difficult to find in Salsa even for experienced dancers. But with something like Swing, the beat is way up front and easy to find. It's like square dancing--it's impossible to miss the beat.

    But I'll stop pitching the idea. If it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you. Maybe in another 10 years or whatever. They say that all personality types start exploring their lower functions as they get older. I've known a good number of older INFPs (I'm retired), and they all get tired of living in their heads all the time and eventually want to come out and partake of the world via Si and Te. So maybe it's something you can reconsider at another phase in life.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am surprised that an INTJ would favor traditional gender roles vs. going her own way, even if that ends up looking like a traditional role in the end. For instance, I prefer men make the first move as well, but because I am a fairly strong introvert, not because I am female. I prefer female friends take the initiative as well.
    I'm sure that's true of my wife too. She certainly does not "favor traditional gender roles" in a general sense; she's quite independent, and she'd probably agree with Gustav Mahler's statement that "tradition is merely an excuse for slovenliness." She has a hard time dealing with SJs and their conventional ways.

    But at the same time, she has often said, "You're the guy; you should take the initiative." And she likes it when I open doors for her. And when we go for a drive, I'm automatically the driver, and she's the navigator (or "navigatrix," as she jokingly says sometimes).

    But yeah, like you, she wishes her female friends would take the initiative more often. She has lost friends over that issue. "I'm always the one who has to call them," she says. "If they don't take the initiative and call me, they must not really want to be around me."

    Another difficult thing I've had to adjust to is "task mode." Yesterday morning was a pretty typical example (though it never happened quite this way before): I was about to leave for work, so I walked into the room where she was shuffling papers and preparing for her own workday, and I said, "Time for me to go. Can I get a kiss good-bye?" (I never used to ask; that was a request of hers that I try to comply with.) She muttered something and raised her face but turned so that I could only kiss her cheek. I "hmphed" in mild disappointment, and she said, "I'm in task mode." I said, "Task mode sucks." She said, "You suck." "What?" I exclaimed. She made another defensive remark as I headed out the door. There was no real animosity in any of this; we've been together long enough that we just laugh off things like this or quickly forget about them. But she meant that what she calls "task mode" (focusing her mind on business at hand and therefore not being open to an emotional exchange or any other nonsense) is a part of who she is, and it's insulting for me to say, "Task mode sucks." But of course I meant that it sucks from my POV because it puts distance between us when I want to be close to her.

    This morning she was in task mode again, as she had to pack the car for a business trip. So I just went along with it until everything was ready and she was about to leave. Then I caught her just before she got into the car and got a proper hug and kiss. By that point, she was open to it. A minute or two before, and she'd probably have pushed me out of the way.

    My SJ mother and sister and a close NF (female) friend could never understand my wife's "abrasiveness." They all wondered why in the world I'd marry someone like her. But they don't get to see the other side of her. Deep down she's sensitive and emotional and deeply caring, with an almost childlike enthusiasm that can be contagious. And closer to the surface, she's capable of quickly and efficiently taking care of practical matters that I'd worry over and have a hard time with.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  5. #45
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    dear INTJ, escape while you can. you don't want to end up like this:


  6. #46
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    My wife put you up to posting that, didn't she?


    Thanks. For some reason, though, I don't take pride in strengthening weak functions; on the contrary, I find it makes me more and more uncomfortable--pushes me into places I just don't want to go. (I just took a DISC test the other day, and I scored 99 in Cautious and about 89 in Stable, but only about 14 in Decisive and 21 in Interactive. I do not do well being the leader, taking the initiative, or pulling myself up by my bootstraps.)

    All my life I've said that there are two jobs/careers I'd never want to have: farming and sales/marketing. So of course my wife gets big into gardening and starts her own business. Like it or not, if I want to be with her and be helpful, I end up doing what seems to me like farming and sales/marketing.

    I've also said that there's one thing I'd never want to do for recreation: dancing. I don't see the point in it, don't much like to watch others doing it, and don't have any interest in it. The closest I come is standing up and swaying to the music at a rock concert. The few times I've actually been on a dance floor (many years ago), I was either embarrassed or drunk or both.

    But my wife would like to take up dancing. She has brought it up a number of times, and once I went so far as to take her to an introductory Arthur Murray class. It went badly, though. For me it was a romantic thing, but to her it was more a way to just move and have fun. I was also clumsy; I heard the music differently than others, i guess, and I couldn't identify the strong beat I was supposed to be moving to.

    We also took a tai chi class together a couple times. That was better, but I didn't have the patience for it and couldn't stick with it.

    My favorite recreational activities would be long, slow, repetitious things like canoeing/kayaking, bicycling, hiking, or cross-country skiing. We've done all those things together at times, but she doesn't love them, and we're both such homebodies that we rarely seem to get around to such activities anyhow.

    If one of your biggest dilemmas is that she wants to dance and you want to kayak, then I think you're doing pretty well .

    I think the Se/Si crap in regards to hobbies is pretty much bollocks. I think the letter dichotomies may have a better predicting quality here, but even then, a lot of it is simply "not type related" because people can have certain interests for so many different reasons.

    The biggest conflict with TJs and FPs (or even NPs), IMO, is desire for structure vs desire for flexibility and the manner of accomplishing stuff. The FP will be painted as the villain in this area, meaning they are more likely to be steamrolled. They may prioritize differently, with an NP putting the most interesting emerging potential up first and the TJ ordering things to be accomplished in a more linear fashion, regardless of what is most fascinating. But NPs do this because Ne uses a LOT of energy, and it is not easily summoned by will, so you have to work with creative bursts when they come. Then there is inevitable burn-out. Then, with Fi, things have to be meaningful for you to want to apply your energy, and if not, then you may only apply just enough Ne to find a clever workaround. This can look to TJs like you're just messing around and doing a half-ass job at the boring stuff. I would expect an NTJ to at least appreciate the cleverness of Ne and the ability to pull of some pretty quality stuff with ingenuity. I know that many TJs value "hard work" in terms of task accomplishment over ingenuity, but ingenuity is often hard mental work. As an NP, you feel the mental exhaustion. It's like you're running around in your brain at cheetah speeds trying to catch and juggle bubbles. But then somehow, that does become something of value. It's pretty much a "method to the madness" situation, and just as NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #47
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    If one of your biggest dilemmas is that she wants to dance and you want to kayak, then I think you're doing pretty well .

    I think the Se/Si crap in regards to hobbies is pretty much bollocks. I think the letter dichotomies may have a better predicting quality here, but even then, a lot of it is simply "not type related" because people can have certain interests for so many different reasons.

    The biggest conflict with TJs and FPs (or even NPs), IMO, is desire for structure vs desire for flexibility and the manner of accomplishing stuff. The FP will be painted as the villain in this area, meaning they are more likely to be steamrolled. They may prioritize differently, with an NP putting the most interesting emerging potential up first and the TJ ordering things to be accomplished in a more linear fashion, regardless of what is most fascinating. But NPs do this because Ne uses a LOT of energy, and it is not easily summoned by will, so you have to work with creative bursts when they come. Then there is inevitable burn-out. Then, with Fi, things have to be meaningful for you to want to apply your energy, and if not, then you may only apply just enough Ne to find a clever workaround. This can look to TJs like you're just messing around and doing a half-ass job at the boring stuff. I would expect an NTJ to at least appreciate the cleverness of Ne and the ability to pull of some pretty quality stuff with ingenuity. I know that many TJs value "hard work" in terms of task accomplishment over ingenuity, but ingenuity is often hard mental work. As an NP, you feel the mental exhaustion. It's like you're running around in your brain at cheetah speeds trying to catch and juggle bubbles. But then somehow, that does become something of value. It's pretty much a "method to the madness" situation, and just as NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.
    That is some horse apples there. you need to clarify your structure vs flexibility, people could be comparing apples with oranges here.

    Ne vs Ni, is a constant tug of war, it's not appreciating la di da da, fluffy nonsense BS. Ne will grab Ni's attention, because Ni wants take it further, Ne doesn't want that. That's where things start to get interesting, but then your Ne burns out. Awwwe then getting them to go further, makes the NTJ frustrated because it's like beating a dead horse.

    If the INFP can drink some fruity smoothies and get some energy, maybe there can be some afterwards.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Patrick's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post. It'll be worth a reread. For now, this incidental remark made my ears perk up:

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up ...
    There's a phenomenon I've regularly experienced (being married to an INTJ). And apparently she has run into it with many people in her life. She resents that her father used to send her to the dictionary or encyclopedia instead of simply acknowledging her when she said something brilliant. As a project manager, she has difficulty with people (especially those with a Sensing preference, she says) who demand a lot of hard data and step-by-step procedures. And at home, I pretty frequently wonder how I'm supposed to just accept what she says with a tone of authority, when it clashes with my previous knowledge or what I'd expect to be true. But if I show any hesitance or disbelief, she's likely to become perturbed and say, "Go do your own research, then. But I wish you'd just listen to me sometimes instead of doubting everything I say."
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)
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  9. #49
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Thanks for the post. It'll be worth a reread. For now, this incidental remark made my ears perk up:



    There's a phenomenon I've regularly experienced (being married to an INTJ). And apparently she has run into it with many people in her life. She resents that her father used to send her to the dictionary or encyclopedia instead of simply acknowledging her when she said something brilliant. As a project manager, she has difficulty with people (especially those with a Sensing preference, she says) who demand a lot of hard data and step-by-step procedures. And at home, I pretty frequently wonder how I'm supposed to just accept what she says with a tone of authority, when it clashes with my previous knowledge or what I'd expect to be true. But if I show any hesitance or disbelief, she's likely to become perturbed and say, "Go do your own research, then. But I wish you'd just listen to me sometimes instead of doubting everything I say."
    It's a mixed bag. I'm an INTJ, and I understand the (seemingly) unwarranted confidence; it takes those around me some time to realize that I actually *do* know what I'm talking about.
    On the other hand, I have blood relatives who are INTJs, but who are like Fibber McGee: whatever comes into their head, they will spout off about it, and (very uncharacteristic for an INTJ) they will hold to their original point of view even when quoted chapter-and-verse explicitly, from reputable sources, which contradict them.

    Methinks it is related to the maturity level and / or insecurity of the INTJ in question.
    (...ouch! stop *kicking* me under the table. It's also their intellectual pride (grumbling at being caught out.))
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #50
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    If one of your biggest dilemmas is that she wants to dance and you want to kayak, then I think you're doing pretty well .

    I think the Se/Si crap in regards to hobbies is pretty much bollocks. I think the letter dichotomies may have a better predicting quality here, but even then, a lot of it is simply "not type related" because people can have certain interests for so many different reasons.

    The biggest conflict with TJs and FPs (or even NPs), IMO, is desire for structure vs desire for flexibility and the manner of accomplishing stuff. The FP will be painted as the villain in this area, meaning they are more likely to be steamrolled. They may prioritize differently, with an NP putting the most interesting emerging potential up first and the TJ ordering things to be accomplished in a more linear fashion, regardless of what is most fascinating. But NPs do this because Ne uses a LOT of energy, and it is not easily summoned by will, so you have to work with creative bursts when they come. Then there is inevitable burn-out. Then, with Fi, things have to be meaningful for you to want to apply your energy, and if not, then you may only apply just enough Ne to find a clever workaround. This can look to TJs like you're just messing around and doing a half-ass job at the boring stuff. I would expect an NTJ to at least appreciate the cleverness of Ne and the ability to pull of some pretty quality stuff with ingenuity. I know that many TJs value "hard work" in terms of task accomplishment over ingenuity, but ingenuity is often hard mental work. As an NP, you feel the mental exhaustion. It's like you're running around in your brain at cheetah speeds trying to catch and juggle bubbles. But then somehow, that does become something of value. It's pretty much a "method to the madness" situation, and just as NJs are always wanting people to just trust their insights with little to back it up, I think NPs just need some faith put into this method.
    @OrangeAppled, @chubber --
    How much do you think that's an NF thing and how much a 4 thing? I'm 5w4 and I find I can muster very little energy or enthusiasm for mowing the grass or changing the cat's litter box.
    Mundane *numerical* tasks such as bills or recording payments, investments, and the like, I do *to relax*. Or grocery shopping, which takes creativity and optimization.
    Any insights from the NF side of the fence?
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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