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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    You don't get it, do you? This isn't about using people for your own gain or anything like that. The point all along is that duality is a way to engage and encourage psychological growth. You are drawn and end up with your dual and find the relationship psychologically fulfilling not to use them as a means to grow for your own selfish purposes, but because they satisfy you in a way other ITR do not. That's how simple it is. Stop twist the argument to suit your perspective.
    If you want(consciously or unconsciously) F as a T because they help you to get to your goals("engage and encourage psychological growth"), it is about your personal growth, so it is about you. Isnt it? I said that if its about unconsciously wanting that because your unconscious tries to look for compensation, then it is not immoral selfishness, but it is about you, not about the other person, not about the relationship. Then if its consciously using other people, then it is selfishness.

    However since you apparently havent seen it, i have no objection against being attracted to someone who is an opposite in some way or another, but the difference is about reasons for it. I think i already addressed this in other words, so ill say it again in other words. If you are looking for compensation from your relationship, you are half a coin that looks for other half from someone else. If you are a full coin that doesent look for another half for Self, but someone bit different whose differences you can admire and are drawn to, then its completely different thing.

    And my entire point all along is that I do not agree with that perspective. Learning is learning.
    I already addressed this issue by saying that your approach is more Te goal oriented style than my approach is.. For example learning math formulas by purely memorization and being capable of calculating complex calculations, is not the same as learning math by figuring out why the formulas are what they are and then being capable of doing complex calculations with the same formulas. Im not saying that INTJs are the types to just memorize the formulas without any thought, but it represents similar goal oriented attitude of "i can now do this, and how i was able to do it is not relevant".

    Jung had this idea about anima/animus archetypes playing role in relationships. The idea is that the opposite from your persona you hide away from other people because you see it as something opposite of you is and often attribute these traits to your ideal romantic partner and try to look for partner like that because your unconscious tries to compensate your own weaknesses. Jung, jungians in general, numerous marriage counsellors and other psychologists see this sort of setup as perfect situation for projections(onto someone who even vaguely resembles this ideal partner) and think that this sort of projections start to fade out after you really get to know the other person(or that they dont fade away and just cause too much misunderstandings and other problems in relationships that it fails altogether) and often in these situations people realize that they didnt actually know their partner nearly as well as they thought.
    Not to mention the idea that its the other persons persona that your anima registers and then starts to project onto the whole person.

    The way to decrease this sort of projections and anima traps is to develop those sides in yourself. And if you develop your F based on some F persons F, then you are again prone on projecting ideas of your old partner on a new partner who is also F, because your idea of F is based on that other person, not this new partners F. So in the end you wont get out of the trap, the trap just changes form a bit.


    This is part of my point:

    I imagine both parties would have to be pretty persistent and dedicated, but it could work.
    Doesent this need for going through long and rocky road be smaller if both parties would had developed their weaker sides, in this case INTJ who developed and properly integrated his Fi to himself and INFP who developed and integrated her Te to herself? Because i think it would ease things significantly, decrease the headaches and arguments/fights that come from misunderstandings and up the chances of the relationship to work out significantly.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #22
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Doesent this need for going through long and rocky road be smaller if both parties would had developed their weaker sides, in this case INTJ who developed and properly integrated his Fi to himself and INFP who developed and integrated her Te to herself?
    Hey, INTJs can be girls, too, y'know.

    Actually, that reminds me. I've been meaning to start a thread about T women dating F men. (And what a frustrating mess it can be.)
    WOOP WOOP WOOP
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    If you want(consciously or unconsciously) F as a T because they help you to get to your goals("engage and encourage psychological growth"), it is about your personal growth, so it is about you. Isnt it?
    Sure is, but it's not just about T vs F, but it's Ti-Fe vs Fi-Te. If you favor Ti-Fe, you will innately prefer and find it more natural to communicate and speak those who are Ti-Fe over Fi-Te. Makes perfect sense, no? That is the entire basis of intertype. Since you are a Ti dom, speaking to an Fe dom will also show you the world of Fe in a way you could never engage in your own because you repress that aspect of yourself. If you didn't, you wouldn't be a Ti dom in the first place and no amount of self-development on your own is going to make you change types. You can however engage that aspect via others who provide that for you. That's the basis of duality.

    I said that if its about unconsciously wanting that because your unconscious tries to look for compensation, then it is not immoral selfishness, but it is about you, not about the other person, not about the relationship. Then if its consciously using other people, then it is selfishness.
    And I never made that distinction in the first place so why bring it up? It's just a strawman.

    However since you apparently havent seen it, i have no objection against being attracted to someone who is an opposite in some way or another, but the difference is about reasons for it. I think i already addressed this in other words, so ill say it again in other words. If you are looking for compensation from your relationship, you are half a coin that looks for other half from someone else. If you are a full coin that doesent look for another half for Self, but someone bit different whose differences you can admire and are drawn to, then its completely different thing.
    Again, it was never about compensation. Duality isn't compensation.

    I already addressed this issue by saying that your approach is more Te goal oriented style than my approach is.. For example learning math formulas by purely memorization and being capable of calculating complex calculations, is not the same as learning math by figuring out why the formulas are what they are and then being capable of doing complex calculations with the same formulas. Im not saying that INTJs are the types to just memorize the formulas without any thought, but it represents similar goal oriented attitude of "i can now do this, and how i was able to do it is not relevant".
    The argument itself is still irrelevant to the claim that it is somehow more courageous to learn something on your own without the use of a mentor.

    Jung had this idea about anima/animus archetypes playing role in relationships. The idea is that the opposite from your persona you hide away from other people because you see it as something opposite of you is and often attribute these traits to your ideal romantic partner and try to look for partner like that because your unconscious tries to compensate your own weaknesses. Jung, jungians in general, numerous marriage counsellors and other psychologists see this sort of setup as perfect situation for projections(onto someone who even vaguely resembles this ideal partner) and think that this sort of projections start to fade out after you really get to know the other person(or that they dont fade away and just cause too much misunderstandings and other problems in relationships that it fails altogether) and often in these situations people realize that they didnt actually know their partner nearly as well as they thought.
    Not to mention the idea that its the other persons persona that your anima registers and then starts to project onto the whole person.
    He did, and while it is arguable that Augusta actually based her idea of duality on the notion of anima, I don't think duality is the same as doing the unconscious projections that Jung posits concerning the anima since the anima complex is a projection which means you are not seeing the person for who they are in the first place. You project someone to become an Se dom even whey are not an Se dom. Duality is not about projections but duality is about psychological satisfaction in the sense that you have the easiest time communicating with your duals. Duality is about communication and has nothing to do with psychological projections or ideas concerning some ideal partner.

    The way to decrease this sort of projections and anima traps is to develop those sides in yourself. And if you develop your F based on some F persons F, then you are again prone on projecting ideas of your old partner on a new partner who is also F, because your idea of F is based on that other person, not this new partners F. So in the end you wont get out of the trap, the trap just changes form a bit.
    lol, it's quite funny, you are so scared of the idea that you can actually learn to engage feeling from a feeler by speaking to a feeler. Why? What scares you so much to the point you think that any communication with a feeler, if you are a thinker, must lead to mere projection and not actual self-development? When people communicate with other people, we adopt ourselves to their modes of perception over time. This is natural for everyone of us. This means that if you are a thinker and you hang out with a bunch of feelers, you will begin to think a little bit more like they do because you will adopt to their ways, just like they will begin to think a little bit more like you do because they adopt to your ways. Why are you so scared of people robbing you off your own sense of independence? Oh wait. Type 5.

    This is part of my point:



    Doesent this need for going through long and rocky road be smaller if both parties would had developed their weaker sides, in this case INTJ who developed and properly integrated his Fi to himself and INFP who developed and integrated her Te to herself? Because i think it would ease things significantly, decrease the headaches and arguments/fights that come from misunderstandings and up the chances of the relationship to work out significantly.
    Actually, being receptive to your dual is the first step of duality because if you think you don't need to hear or are open to the input of your dual, you will likely reject them anyway. So there's that.

    You can go on and think this way lol, but between the two of us, I am pretty sure I know who is the one who is afraid of psychologically engaging the inferior here, and it's not I.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #24
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Hey, INTJs can be girls, too, y'know.

    Actually, that reminds me. I've been meaning to start a thread about T women dating F men. (And what a frustrating mess it can be.)
    Women capable of being INTJs(or any T type) is a myth, it just simply cannot happen. So because your type says INTJ and you provided photo evidence of you being a female, you cannot exist.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #25
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Women capable of being INTJs(or any T type) is a myth, it just simply cannot happen. So because your type says INTJ and you provided photo evidence of you being a female, you cannot exist.
    To paraphrase Douglas Adams:

    "Oh dear," says the female INTJ, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP
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  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Women capable of being INTJs(or any T type) is a myth, it just simply cannot happen. So because your type says INTJ and you provided photo evidence of you being a female, you cannot exist.
    So I'm really a guy after all? Cool. Can I be a few inches taller, too?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #27
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Sure is, but it's not just about T vs F, but it's Ti-Fe vs Fi-Te. If you favor Ti-Fe, you will innately prefer and find it more natural to communicate and speak those who are Ti-Fe over Fi-Te. Makes perfect sense, no? That is the entire basis of intertype. Since you are a Ti dom, speaking to an Fe dom will also show you the world of Fe in a way you could never engage in your own because you repress that aspect of yourself. If you didn't, you wouldn't be a Ti dom in the first place and no amount of self-development on your own is going to make you change types. You can however engage that aspect via others who provide that for you. That's the basis of duality.
    Well its funny that 5 out of 6 of my best friends are Fi/Te(INFP, ENFP, ESFP, INTJ, ISFP) and just one Ti/Fe(ENTP), so it doesent seem like i prefer Ti/Fe more. But i do agree that its easier for me an the ENTP to understand each other when talking about complex science stuff, other rationale or philosophy. I quite often have to explain the INTJ to the ENTP and other way around because i can see easier what part the INTJ doesent get(but explaining it to the INTJ isnt always easy), usually when its 3 of us debating over something i can get the ENTP in a sec, but the INTJ cant, so its left to me to trouble shoot what part the INTJ didt get.



    Again, it was never about compensation. Duality isn't compensation.
    Ofc it is, relationships always have at least some compensation going on. The difference is in the amount and reasons for attraction.


    The argument itself is still irrelevant to the claim that it is somehow more courageous to learn something on your own without the use of a mentor.
    This is something so obvious that it doesent even need any arguments for..


    He did, and while it is arguable that Augusta actually based her idea of duality on the notion of anima, I don't think duality is the same as doing the unconscious projections that Jung posits concerning the anima since the anima complex is a projection which means you are not seeing the person for who they are in the first place. You project someone to become an Se dom even whey are not an Se dom. Duality is not about projections but duality is about psychological satisfaction in the sense that you have the easiest time communicating with your duals. Duality is about communication and has nothing to do with psychological projections or ideas concerning some ideal partner.
    It doesent matter whether duality and anima/animus are the same(and i never claimed that they are), rest of what you say just shows that you are not very familiar with the idea of anima. Its funny that these INFP and INTJ friends ai have are also roommates and they dont get each others at all, thy dont communicate the same. And i never said that duality is about projection, i said that its easy to project onto someone who is opposite to you in some ways.


    lol, it's quite funny, you are so scared of the idea that you can actually learn to engage feeling from a feeler by speaking to a feeler. Why? What scares you so much to the point you think that any communication with a feeler, if you are a thinker, must lead to mere projection and not actual self-development? When people communicate with other people, we adopt ourselves to their modes of perception over time. This is natural for everyone of us. This means that if you are a thinker and you hang out with a bunch of feelers, you will begin to think a little bit more like they do because you will adopt to their ways, just like they will begin to think a little bit more like you do because they adopt to your ways. Why are you so scared of people robbing you off your own sense of independence? Oh wait. Type 5.
    Again you are just showing that you are not getting it. Where did you get the idea that im afraid to learn to encage F from feelers? Its not about that, its just that copy/paste someone elses behavior or thinking patterns isnt as good idea than it is to become your own person, which i dont think can be fully attained from copy/paste or from adjusting to someone elses preferences. Sure some adjustment is always needed in relationships(romantic or platonic), but trying to forge your inner self from adjusting to others or copy/paste is just foolish short cut to take in my opinion.


    Actually, being receptive to your dual is the first step of duality because if you think you don't need to hear or are open to the input of your dual, you will likely reject them anyway. So there's that.
    Thats just the first step out of hundreds..

    You can go on and think this way lol, but between the two of us, I am pretty sure I know who is the one who is afraid of psychologically engaging the inferior here, and it's not I.
    Years ago i got depressed due to one(T) sidedness of my ego and in order to get out of it, i was forced to develop and realize my F(which ofc isnt the same F than other people have, because each person is individual, another reason why its not good to learn too much from others), not to mention all the other introspection that i had to do about my weaknesses. I have since worked in customer service which was mostly just using Fe(not only was the job Fe'ing around, but the whole organization was ran so that they could raise money for charity), and i excelled in it and enjoyed it a lot. This ofc has also made me more aware of Fe related stuff going around me(thats part of the development), i get more joy in spreading joy nowadays etc etc. And i have learned to do better Ti and Fe analysis on things and to rationally think which one i should put more weight into, or if i could find an way to incorporate both and maybe make some compromises between them to get to a solution that satisfies both as much as possible(<- the most important thing in development).
    Ofc i dont always care about Fe harmony or whether or not my actians have a negative influence on the mood of the situation which others are also part of and i still hold back some Fe from some people, because i feel that they could use it against me since im not(and never will be) as competent in it as i am with Ti. But im not even supposed to be and it would be foolish to think that i could be as fluent in something i have learned later in my life than in something that i was born to be and have trained since i was born.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #28
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So I'm really a guy after all? Cool. Can I be a few inches taller, too?
    Sure, but only if you are 165cm or shorter
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #29
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    To paraphrase Douglas Adams:

    "Oh dear," says the female INTJ, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #30
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    lol, so by this token it's also bad to have a teacher or a mentor who will help you oversee your development of a skill when learning something new? We know that tutoring > self-practice and the steeper the learning curve, the faster we learn. The point of the dual isn't to cover up for one's own weaknesses without one ever doing something about it on one's own, but the point of the dual is that they provide a safe environment where they encourage you to use your weaker functions in a way that feels comfortable for you, by themselves setting an example of how one uses them in a sophisticated manner. Just like a teacher or a mentor does, in other words.

    I feel like none of you actually understand or get duality in this regard. Duals actually correct you, they show you when you do wrong or bad and then they provide how you do it better. They aren't carrying you around like babies. It's the very other way around. When you engage with your dual they will dominate you where you are weak and you will force to submit to them and take in what they have to say. Over time, you will begin to develop the same sophisticated awareness they do though of course, never the same as your dual.
    There's nothing wrong with a mentor or receiving help in self-growth, but many don't want that dynamic with a romantic partner.

    Also, instead of "dualizing" you, it can make you simply rely on someone else so much for your blindspot that you never bother to grow in that area.
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

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