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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    lol, so by this token it's also bad to have a teacher or a mentor who will help you oversee your development of a skill when learning something new? We know that tutoring > self-practice and the steeper the learning curve, the faster we learn. The point of the dual isn't to cover up for one's own weaknesses without one ever doing something about it on one's own, but the point of the dual is that they provide a safe environment where they encourage you to use your weaker functions in a way that feels comfortable for you, by themselves setting an example of how one uses them in a sophisticated manner. Just like a teacher or a mentor does, in other words.

    I feel like none of you actually understand or get duality in this regard. Duals actually correct you, they show you when you do wrong or bad and then they provide how you do it better. They aren't carrying you around like babies. It's the very other way around. When you engage with your dual they will dominate you where you are weak and you will force to submit to them and take in what they have to say. Over time, you will begin to develop the same sophisticated awareness they do though of course, never the same as your dual.
    Basically what you say that its ok to learn your weak points from others and to practise them in an comfortable situation. Right? I think you can learn and develop from that, but in my opinion its better to learn these things on your own, because then you learn to trust in yourself more. Also i think that in order to even develop your weaker points(lets say inferior and/or undeveloped tert for example) on your own, you need to face your Self differently, than when you just copy/paste. I have also heard of something like that can backfire later in life, for example in middle age or after divorce from long marriage.

    Basically the idea in jungian psychology about mid life is that its part of individuation:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midlife_crisis#Theoretical_basis
    Jungian theory holds that mid-life is key to individuation, a process of self-actualization and self-awareness that contains many potential paradoxes.[22] Although Carl Jung did not describe midlife crisis per se, the mid-life integration of thinking, sensation, feeling, and intuition that he describes could, it seems, lead to confusion about one's life and goals.
    I prefer to not rely so much on other peoples guidance in this sort of matters, because i think it leads to deeper understanding of Self(because its self-actualized) and forcing you to step out from your comfort zone differently. But ofc this like no thing is black and white and im not saying that its not good to learn from relationships, but relying too much in others in your self-realization isnt good, but relationships(romantic or platonic, or just random everyday people interactions) are the whole reason for why people need to figure their selves out and learn these different behaviors and thinking patterns that wouldnt be even all needed if you were alone in the world. Especially if you are in romantic relationship, its even more important to adjust to your partner, especially if the differences in personality are huge.

    If you and your partner had already balanced in your T-F, dont you think that your understanding of each others would be more deeper from the beginning creating better basis for the relationship and better ability to empathize with the other without easily projecting a lot to each others?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #12
    Member nonchalant's Avatar
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    TLTR

    I just think that INTJs are mysterious. I can figure the ENTJs out because they're very expressive and verbal but I just can't seem to figure out the INTJs, especially if they're enneagram 5. This type intrigues me. I like to uncover the mysteries, liking opening a present and see what's inside. That type of excitement and the INTJs are just like that, a mystery to me.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Basically what you say that its ok to learn your weak points from others and to practise them in an comfortable situation. Right? I think you can learn and develop from that, but in my opinion its better to learn these things on your own, because then you learn to trust in yourself more.
    Why must learning from others imply lack of trust in oneself?

    Also i think that in order to even develop your weaker points(lets say inferior and/or undeveloped tert for example) on your own, you need to face your Self differently, than when you just copy/paste.
    You still need to face yourself when being guided by a mentor. They cannot do the job for you. You only learn from practice but that requires personal action.

    I have also heard of something like that can backfire later in life, for example in middle age or after divorce from long marriage.
    This sounds like really odd conjecture since there are numerous reasons why people can choose to divorce.

    Basically the idea in jungian psychology about mid life is that its part of individuation:



    I prefer to not rely so much on other peoples guidance in this sort of matters, because i think it leads to deeper understanding of Self(because its self-actualized) and forcing you to step out from your comfort zone differently.
    I don't get this needless distrust in others and the world around you, and I say that as someone who is overly distrustful as an innate disposition that I have. Again, no one can walk the path for you and no one can carry you to the end of the journey and expect you to appreciate the travel there. Life doesn't work that way. You seem to essentially fear that you think that people use mentors as a quick fix in order self-actualize but that's the thing - there is no quick fix to self-actualization and that is regardless of whether one does it alone or with a mentor. A mentor can speed up the process by showing you the proper signs and which direction to go when reaching a cross-path, but that's about all they can actually do.

    But ofc this like no thing is black and white and im not saying that its not good to learn from relationships, but relying too much in others in your self-realization isnt good, but relationships(romantic or platonic, or just random everyday people interactions) are the whole reason for why people need to figure their selves out and learn these different behaviors and thinking patterns that wouldnt be even all needed if you were alone in the world. Especially if you are in romantic relationship, its even more important to adjust to your partner, especially if the differences in personality are huge.
    Again, I get the impression you say this because you actually have not had the opportunity to experience duality first-hand so you thus dismiss it because you do not understand how much of a psychological impact duality in fact, has on you. The dual shows you all the facets and nuggets of reality that you miss by constantly forcing you to engage it the way they do it; over time that will obviously develop in an increase in skill.

    If you and your partner had already balanced in your T-F, dont you think that your understanding of each others would be more deeper from the beginning creating better basis for the relationship and better ability to empathize with the other without easily projecting a lot to each others?
    What? I don't even understand this paragraph.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Why must learning from others imply lack of trust in oneself?



    You still need to face yourself when being guided by a mentor. They cannot do the job for you. You only learn from practice but that requires personal action.



    This sounds like really odd conjecture since there are numerous reasons why people can choose to divorce.



    I don't get this needless distrust in others and the world around you, and I say that as someone who is overly distrustful as an innate disposition that I have. Again, no one can walk the path for you and no one can carry you to the end of the journey and expect you to appreciate the travel there. Life doesn't work that way. You seem to essentially fear that you think that people use mentors as a quick fix in order self-actualize but that's the thing - there is no quick fix to self-actualization and that is regardless of whether one does it alone or with a mentor. A mentor can speed up the process by showing you the proper signs and which direction to go when reaching a cross-path, but that's about all they can actually do.



    Again, I get the impression you say this because you actually have not had the opportunity to experience duality first-hand so you thus dismiss it because you do not understand how much of a psychological impact duality in fact, has on you. The dual shows you all the facets and nuggets of reality that you miss by constantly forcing you to engage it the way they do it; over time that will obviously develop in an increase in skill.



    What? I don't even understand this paragraph.
    You are misunderstanding quite a lot and not getting my point. Ill try to make it clear and easy: If you dont go where the fence is lowest and without the help from others, you need to learn how to climb properly on your own, when you do learn ho to climb properly, you can get over other fences in the future easily as well. Also when you learn to climb without safety nets, you need more courage, and this courage develops your attitude differently, more profound ways imo
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    You are misunderstanding quite a lot and not getting my point. Ill try to make it clear and easy: If you dont go where the fence is lowest and without the help from others, you need to learn how to climb properly on your own, when you do learn ho to climb properly, you can get over other fences in the future easily as well. Also when you learn to climb without safety nets, you need more courage, and this courage develops your attitude differently, more profound ways imo
    Again you assume that someone who is gaining help from the guide of a mentor is somehow less secure or trust themselves less than someone who doesn't. One can equally argue that's is as bold to trust someone else to aid them, to admit that they are wrong and allow themselves to be guided by another. You can learn how to climb but you can also end up using wrong method. It got you over the fence, but the wrong method is going to drag you down later in life. That's another positive aspect of a mentor since they can also not just point out how to do it, but they can correct a faulty technique.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #16
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Again you assume that someone who is gaining help from the guide of a mentor is somehow less secure or trust themselves less than someone who doesn't. One can equally argue that's is as bold to trust someone else to aid them, to admit that they are wrong and allow themselves to be guided by another. You can learn how to climb but you can also end up using wrong method. It got you over the fence, but the wrong method is going to drag you down later in life. That's another positive aspect of a mentor since they can also not just point out how to do it, but they can correct a faulty technique.
    Its not a very far away assumption.. I mean doing it yourself requires more courage, doesent it? Thus it is required for you to gain more trust in yourself. Gaining more trust in yourself, even when the situation isnt comfortable gives you more. Admitting and seeing your own weaknesses requires you to be more honest with yourself and to put your ego aside more. Learning to go over one fence surely helps you to go over than fence, if you get too much guidance form others to cross that particular fence, you learn to climb that fence, but learning the art of going over fences(not just that one fence) helps you to go over other fences as well, especially since you gain more courage and trust in Self from learning.

    And yes, you could argue that trusting someone elses aid requires courage, but its not as much. Its taking the easy route, or goign where the fence is the easiest to cross, giving you less skills to go over fences in general.

    Also when you learn F from one person, that helps more with that particular person, you learn to adjust to them. Its more about adjusting your behavior(from which you can ofc learn some, but not as profoundly) than actually changing your attitude, which is the important thing.

    Your way of thinking this whole thing seems really Te goal oriented way of approaching the situation, you have a goal of adjusting to a person who is more F than you are and i wont deny that you couldnt get there, its just that it might take a lot of fights, misunderstanding and a long rocky road(which ofc might get you two to become closer), and as i mentioned especially in the beginning there will be more projection, because you dont really understand where the other person is coming from, so you are forced to assume more.

    My point is that its good to develop yourself more and self-development should come from yourself, not from others, or you wont be doing such a good job.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Its not a very far away assumption.. I mean doing it yourself requires more courage, doesent it? Thus it is required for you to gain more trust in yourself. Gaining more trust in yourself, even when the situation isnt comfortable gives you more. Admitting and seeing your own weaknesses requires you to be more honest with yourself and to put your ego aside more. Learning to go over one fence surely helps you to go over than fence, if you get too much guidance form others to cross that particular fence, you learn to climb that fence, but learning the art of going over fences(not just that one fence) helps you to go over other fences as well, especially since you gain more courage and trust in Self from learning.

    And yes, you could argue that trusting someone elses aid requires courage, but its not as much. Its taking the easy route, or goign where the fence is the easiest to cross, giving you less skills to go over fences in general.

    Also when you learn F from one person, that helps more with that particular person, you learn to adjust to them. Its more about adjusting your behavior(from which you can ofc learn some, but not as profoundly) than actually changing your attitude, which is the important thing.

    Your way of thinking this whole thing seems really Te goal oriented way of approaching the situation, you have a goal of adjusting to a person who is more F than you are and i wont deny that you couldnt get there, its just that it might take a lot of fights, misunderstanding and a long rocky road(which ofc might get you two to become closer), and as i mentioned especially in the beginning there will be more projection, because you dont really understand where the other person is coming from, so you are forced to assume more.

    My point is that its good to develop yourself more and self-development should come from yourself, not from others, or you wont be doing such a good job.
    Yeah, this is going in circles. You just seem to be of the fundamental belief, likely more a reflection of your own disposition, that it is always more courageous to do it yourself. Seems to me that you reason such because you yourself do not inherently trust yourself so from this vantage point it makes the most sense to dare to find the courage within oneself to act alone. Again, this is not true for every person. Some people who may be overly self-reliant will also have to find the courage to trust in and relying on others. That may take an equal amount of courage as it does from your vantage point to do something on your own. I really have a hard time understanding how you cannot understand this, that your methodology is not the only one or the best one and that people's sense of self-trust is going to vary across individuals. Just because you do not seemingly trust yourself, it doesn't mean others do not.

    Fyi, this has little to do with T vs F or anything of the sort, but this is more a reflection of say, enneagram motivations. You seem like a 5 or something so no shit then, that from your vantage point the greatest courage is to act on your own. For me as an 8, the greatest courage is to be open and let others inside and to trust others in that way. I don't have a problem acting on my own and doing it my way. That's my natural disposition. But to work with others, being lenient, adopting and molding, that's something I struggle a great deal with so for me, working with someone else takes way more courage than it does to trust myself to develop my own skills.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Yeah, this is going in circles. You just seem to be of the fundamental belief, likely more a reflection of your own disposition, that it is always more courageous to do it yourself. Seems to me that you reason such because you yourself do not inherently trust yourself so from this vantage point it makes the most sense to dare to find the courage within oneself to act alone. Again, this is not true for every person. Some people who may be overly self-reliant will also have to find the courage to trust in and relying on others. That may take an equal amount of courage as it does from your vantage point to do something on your own. I really have a hard time understanding how you cannot understand this, that your methodology is not the only one or the best one and that people's sense of self-trust is going to vary across individuals. Just because you do not seemingly trust yourself, it doesn't mean others do not.

    Fyi, this has little to do with T vs F or anything of the sort, but this is more a reflection of say, enneagram motivations. You seem like a 5 or something so no shit then, that from your vantage point the greatest courage is to act on your own. For me as an 8, the greatest courage is to be open and let others inside and to trust others in that way. I don't have a problem acting on my own and doing it my way. That's my natural disposition. But to work with others, being lenient, adopting and molding, that's something I struggle a great deal with so for me, working with someone else takes way more courage than it does to trust myself to develop my own skills.
    Lol you are the one who first talked it being easier to rely on other peoples help, now you are saying that it takes more courage to let people close and to do things in the way you suggested.. I dont know how this makes sense in your head, but it doesent.

    But anyways, i take this 8 thing you talked about, being afraid to be open to others and let others close to you(i dont believe that its some 8 thing and that 5's are opposite, but ill play along). This is obviously a weakness that one should overcome in order to become more balanced person. Now if you enter a relationship, so that you could fix this in yourself regardless of all the crap that the other person gets, it would be selfish and immoral in my opinion, not immoral ofc if you do it following your unconscious need for compensation, that would just be immature. However if you would do it yourself on your own instead of using other people for your own gain, you would enter the relationship from completely different grounds.

    Im not sure if you realized that i said many times that you can learn your way also, but i just said that the learning isnt as profound, also i gave you plenty of reasons why its not as profound and if you are not capable of understanding reason(while also making those weird rationalizations that make no sense that i mentioned on the first paragraph), there is no point of discussing this. I feel all the time that you cant follow and starting to feel like im trying to teach a dog to drive a car..

    Anyways i hope you do succeed on the path you choose take and that you dont cause too much unnecessary headache to others along your way.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #19
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    I get along really well with INFPs, and they usually seem to enjoy my company as well. Both types being introverts, we understand each other's occasional need for solitude, and don't get offended by it or take it personally. I also find that we can talk to each other about pretty much anything. I could see a romantic relationship working, as long as the INTJ respects the emotional needs of the INFP, and the INFP recognizes that emotions are not the INTJ's strong suit.

    I could see possible problems arising from the stubbornness of the INTJ going up against the tendency of some INFPs to be indecisive. I've noticed that some INFPs (and Perceivers in general) tend to avoid conflict, which can be frustrating to Judging types. But then again, some Judgers love to be the ones to make all the decisions. It probably would depend on the couple.

    I imagine both parties would have to be pretty persistent and dedicated, but it could work.
    WOOP WOOP WOOP
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Lol you are the one who first talked it being easier to rely on other peoples help, now you are saying that it takes more courage to let people close and to do things in the way you suggested.. I dont know how this makes sense in your head, but it doesent.
    Yeah, it is easier in the sense that they can a) rectify things right away when you do an error and b) present a much steeper learning curve for you to adapt to which will encourage more growth than an easier one. Don't twist the argument I'm making. It does not mean it is easier in the sense that one must somehow do less or that it requires less effort or any of the sort.

    But anyways, i take this 8 thing you talked about, being afraid to be open to others and let others close to you(i dont believe that its some 8 thing and that 5's are opposite, but ill play along).
    5s are opposite though... 5s fear to act and taking action. 8s don't.

    This is obviously a weakness that one should overcome in order to become more balanced person. Now if you enter a relationship, so that you could fix this in yourself regardless of all the crap that the other person gets, it would be selfish and immoral in my opinion, not immoral ofc if you do it following your unconscious need for compensation, that would just be immature. However if you would do it yourself on your own instead of using other people for your own gain, you would enter the relationship from completely different grounds.
    You don't get it, do you? This isn't about using people for your own gain or anything like that. The point all along is that duality is a way to engage and encourage psychological growth. You are drawn and end up with your dual and find the relationship psychologically fulfilling not to use them as a means to grow for your own selfish purposes, but because they satisfy you in a way other ITR do not. That's how simple it is. Stop twist the argument to suit your perspective.

    Im not sure if you realized that i said many times that you can learn your way also, but i just said that the learning isnt as profound,
    And my entire point all along is that I do not agree with that perspective. Learning is learning.

    also i gave you plenty of reasons why its not as profound
    And I disagreed with all those reasons as I think they more if anything reveal your personal bias and disposition.

    and if you are not capable of understanding reason(while also making those weird rationalizations that make no sense that i mentioned on the first paragraph), there is no point of discussing this. I feel all the time that you cant follow and starting to feel like im trying to teach a dog to drive a car..
    LOOOOL. Nice projection bro. Very nice.

    Anyways i hope you do succeed on the path you choose take and that you dont cause too much unnecessary headache to others along your way.
    It would be much easier if you didn't try to twist everything to fit your perspective, that's for sure.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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