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  1. #131
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post

    and everyone can benefit from enjoying the moment a bit from time to time. if there were an atheist bible it should probably be included somewhere (the whole "you only have now so enjoy everything you can")
    Uh, you don't have to be an *atheist* for that one; King Solomon got there first, several hundred years before Jesus arrived on the scene:

    24 A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?

    Ecclesiastes 2:24-25

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    or as my mom and dad have both said on different occasions

    "It's a good relationship if both of you feel like you are the lucky one and want more than anything to make the other as happy as they make you"

    they still hold hands


    I thought *everyone* still holds hands once they are married!



    On topic, I don't think the language of 'giving up' something 'for the sake of the relationship' is a helpful wording of the issue.

    I think of it more about finding inner parts of me which can relate to the other person. I can choose to go with the flow of the INFP or I can choose to get all innerly offended by their casual style.

    But I do have boundaries, and I have not found every INFP easy to get along with, and certainly I have been hurt badly by one INFP 'best friend', it was many years ago now but I still wince to remember the details.


  2. #132
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Now if they can learn to be tidy!
    If you ever find out how to get them to do this, let me know.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #133
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    @Rambling

    you're missing the previous post where "nothing when we die" was mentioned
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  4. #134
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    When Dr. Berens says INFPs (and INTPs, ISFPs, ISFJs, ENTJs, ESTJs, ENFJs, and ESTPs) "focus on outcome," it sounds like she means that's what they talk about the most. They're not necessarily any more or less intent on getting to the goal. But if a conversation starts up, the above-listed types will all tend to speak much more about the outcome than the process.

    The other eight types, of course, do the opposite: in conversation, or when interacting, they talk more about the process--what's happening rather than how they want to see things turn out.
    Yes, exactly.

    ---

    If you think of "goal" in terms of: values, ideals, fantasies even... and then yes, INFPs do focus on outcome over process. Ask a young INFP the steps they plan to take to accomplish some ideal of theirs....it will likely be vague. They are far more focused on perfecting the ideal in theory than figuring out how to do it (doesn't mean they won't eventually do it, but they have to let the perfectionism go a bit). Logistics is a weak point with typical INFPs (THAT is what inferior Te tends to be, not a problem with "logical" thinking as far as rational reasoning or understanding math, etc). Ironically, we will accomplish a goal when we use an exploratory approach and jump into a process with the goal as the guide, not developing a process beforehand ("strategy"). The strategic method is more IxxJ (except ISFJs). I actually think the Get Things Going (ExFPs + ENTPs) complement the Behind the Scenes types (INxPs + ISFXs) better because they give push us to start exploring but give the freedom to do so. The Chart the Course (IxxJs) seem better complemented by the In-Charge types who want to see proof of progress towards the goal. The opposing types will clash, but not sure on the introvert groups. The strategy of IxxJs may clash with the more exploratory nature of INFPs.

    IMO, the hyper focus on the "goal", aka outcome, aka IDEAL for an INFP is what makes us procrastinate, because we are more concerned with figuring out what it even is than doing something just for the sake of doing it (and then it turns out you put effort into something very NOT ideal). This may seem like a flaw in an extroverted world which prizes what is seen and can be measured, but it means that when INFPs DO take action, they have a very strong purpose driving them, and they aim for extremely high quality.

    There are lots of people who accomplish many menial tasks in the day-to-day & no doubt have spotless automobiles, but their overall life is incredibly mundane and without much meaning. I'd hate to have piddled my life away at a 9-5 and on TV and video games. Creating purpose for myself is paramount, and the dishes can wait (as that will never be my life purpose... no housewife life for me).

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    @Rambling

    you're missing the previous post where "nothing when we die" was mentioned
    Yep, Ecclesiastes again. I think that was his point. Oh and "nothing new under the sun" - well, isn't that proving to be true as well.
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  5. #135
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post

    Yep, Ecclesiastes again. I think that was his point. Oh and "nothing new under the sun" - well, isn't that proving to be true as well.
    nothing meant no heaven and no hell

    all the things that I think are obvious what I meant and people argue anyway...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #136
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    nothing meant no heaven and no hell

    all the things that I think are obvious what I meant and people argue anyway...
    Yep. Ecclesiastes again. We know what you meant. Ecclesiastes said it already.
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #137
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    nothing meant no heaven and no hell

    all the things that I think are obvious what I meant and people argue anyway...
    Whatever, @whatever...

  8. #138
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yep. Ecclesiastes again. We know what you meant. Ecclesiastes said it already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Whatever, @whatever...
    whatever is easier to spell

    Also... The bible contradicts itself way too much...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  9. #139
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Remember when you were renovating and you talked about smashing a wall down with your INTJ Dad (I think, sorry if I remember the details incorrectly)? You didn't care how you smashed it down, you just wanted it out of the way, and you picked up the handiest tool to do the job and wham, mission accomplished. A J-type, generally however, will focus on how to get the wall down, will consider all of the details first of that. The consider what process they will use to get there.

    In the meantime, you've picked up the sledgehammer and the point is moot. Wall - gone.

    That's how I see the difference - you and I don't care about how it gets done, but if we get it done expediently or cleverly, more points for us. You enjoy the process far more than I do, I think, but that doesn't change where your energy comes from. J-types are more about "we have to do this, HOW will we do it". Both styles consider the goal and the process, but one reigns more dominant from the focus perspective So, you did indeed care that the wall was taken down, it was in your loosely laid plans. And if that demolition process had gone badly, you may have just adapted your plan to suit the circumstance and make a new goal. J-s (generally) take more care to ensure the process leads to the desired outcome.

    That's kind of how I see it, anyway - what do you think?
    Sorry for the semi-nerco. Here's a *seeming* point of contact: you seem much more up-to-speed on how INFPs and INTJs feel/think so I'd appreciate your comments.

    For INFPs, "you and I don't care about how it gets done, but if we get it done expediently or cleverly, more points for us"
    For INTJs, "we have to do this, HOW will we do it": A J-type, generally however, will focus on how to get the wall down, will consider all of the details first of that. The consider what process they will use to get there.

    In other words, the J-type makes sure the expedient or clever is baked right in, from the beginning, *before* starting on the process.
    For the P-type, they are goal oriented, yet they award points if it done expediently or cleverly (that's the point of contact)...
    yet they don't stop to plan and consider first.

    ...it sounds like a paradox, though. Because if the demolition process goes badly, the P-type will re-adapt their plan to suit the circumstance and make a new goal: and it seems that the P type (ever open to emerging possibilities) actually *enjoys* having to detour. Which conflicts with the "just get the job *DONE*".

    Whereas the INTJ, if things go wrong, may likely have planned for alternative scenario A, B, or C, but doesn't have an on-the-spot adaptation, if what went wrong wasn't foreseen. At that point, the INTJ may just go apesh*t and do something slapdash to get the job DONE: but that conflicts with "liking to plan."

    INTJs and INFPs are like funhouse mirror images of one another. Curiously mesmerizing.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  10. #140
    Active Member Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Sorry for the semi-nerco. Here's a *seeming* point of contact: you seem much more up-to-speed on how INFPs and INTJs feel/think so I'd appreciate your comments.

    For INFPs, "you and I don't care about how it gets done, but if we get it done expediently or cleverly, more points for us"
    For INTJs, "we have to do this, HOW will we do it": A J-type, generally however, will focus on how to get the wall down, will consider all of the details first of that. The consider what process they will use to get there.

    In other words, the J-type makes sure the expedient or clever is baked right in, from the beginning, *before* starting on the process.
    For the P-type, they are goal oriented, yet they award points if it done expediently or cleverly (that's the point of contact)...
    yet they don't stop to plan and consider first.

    ...it sounds like a paradox, though. Because if the demolition process goes badly, the P-type will re-adapt their plan to suit the circumstance and make a new goal: and it seems that the P type (ever open to emerging possibilities) actually *enjoys* having to detour. Which conflicts with the "just get the job *DONE*".

    Whereas the INTJ, if things go wrong, may likely have planned for alternative scenario A, B, or C, but doesn't have an on-the-spot adaptation, if what went wrong wasn't foreseen. At that point, the INTJ may just go apesh*t and do something slapdash to get the job DONE: but that conflicts with "liking to plan."

    INTJs and INFPs are like funhouse mirror images of one another. Curiously mesmerizing.
    Ps will even do something inefficient or stupid and could careless for fun. That's a huge difference between the P vs J dynamic. It's like a challenge, learning experience, and we only half ass care about the goal. I confuse INTJ serious side because this is the P playful side. Let's do something incompetent and make it work. J has to actual shift mindsets to do this, it's not natural.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.
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