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Thread: INTJ and INFP Relationships

  1. #121
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Remember when you were renovating and you talked about smashing a wall down with your INTJ Dad (I think, sorry if I remember the details incorrectly)? You didn't care how you smashed it down, you just wanted it out of the way, and you picked up the handiest tool to do the job and wham, mission accomplished. A J-type, generally however, will focus on how to get the wall down, will consider all of the details first of that. The consider what process they will use to get there.

    In the meantime, you've picked up the sledgehammer and the point is moot. Wall - gone.

    That's how I see the difference - you and I don't care about how it gets done, but if we get it done expediently or cleverly, more points for us. You enjoy the process far more than I do, I think, but that doesn't change where your energy comes from. J-types are more about "we have to do this, HOW will we do it". Both styles consider the goal and the process, but one reigns more dominant from the focus perspective So, you did indeed care that the wall was taken down, it was in your loosely laid plans. And if that demolition process had gone badly, you may have just adapted your plan to suit the circumstance and make a new goal. J-s (generally) take more care to ensure the process leads to the desired outcome.

    That's kind of how I see it, anyway - what do you think?
    We all do process etc to some degree. My girlfriend laughs at us when we work together because we are like 2 old people bickering about how to go about things. Its a logical, consequence battle of "if this, then that" until we settle on best approach. He is still more slow and cautious where I am more, sounds good...JUMP. I noticed the same thing with most INTJs I work with. The process is focused on outcome though, outcome is of the utmost importance. Which means that if they are working with someone they deem as competent they wont care as much about process, where as if its someone they deem as incompetent they will care more about process. With my house his way of coping with my decision is "Its your house" and I agree and we jump. While he does a lot of "process", his focus and goal is outcome. The quickest way to make an INTJs eyes cross and have them go crazy is to suggest a process that more then likely wont have the best outcome. They may go along, but if they cant get past the crossed eyes, it will be done with a more negative attitude toward the process. To see one of an INTJs smirk, I surrender side is to actually do something an INTJ disagrees with and it actually worked. This actually requires respect of INTJ though as you have to be able to have enough respect from them to not get into the eyes crossed, negative attitude. The INTJs I work with do this all the time with me, not that I am better, but we actually are an even yoke(match) when it comes to this type of stuff so its a 50/50 of works or not. I just put less emphasis on someone elses process not working if it doesn't go as planned so that's not the way to get to my surrender side.

    I usually don't make new goals, I adapt and adjust process on the fly to reach goal. Now my goals are not usually very far planned out so I don't do a lot of "ok...new goal" because I didn't have many goals when I set off to do things. I continually adjust and adapt the process always.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member Array Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Ps usually tend to focus on outcome when in a stressed situation. When not stressed we usually just go with the flow because we don't worry about outcome.
    When Dr. Berens says INFPs (and INTPs, ISFPs, ISFJs, ENTJs, ESTJs, ENFJs, and ESTPs) "focus on outcome," it sounds like she means that's what they talk about the most. They're not necessarily any more or less intent on getting to the goal. But if a conversation starts up, the above-listed types will all tend to speak much more about the outcome than the process.

    The other eight types, of course, do the opposite: in conversation, or when interacting, they talk more about the process--what's happening rather than how they want to see things turn out.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  3. #123
    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    @Patrick

    in the end isn't that what relationships are all about? finding someone who you are willing to compromise on things with?

    as a strong P with a strong J, I've learned to do awful things like make lists and occasionally make a budget on paper and worse yet, every once in a while figure out where we're going to stay BEFORE we leave for a strange city

    and I'm not saying that I merely get by going to work and coming home... I've learned to appreciate the simple things like the breeze that picks up after dark on a hot day or how the stars look like sharp pinpoints of light in the winter and how water sprays your face in a fine mist when you're riding in a boat... to me there is the here and the now and there's no guarantee that there will be a tomorrow and it's doubtful that there's anything after I'm done with this life, therefore I'd be wasting the wonders of the universe around me if I didn't enjoy them while I can, before once again joining them in a different state

    ... and now I realize we've seriously gone off topic... that's what you get for allowing P types to go around posting on a forum, I suppose
    For the bolded, I'd modify the statement a bit.

    Any successful long term relationship will require (if both parties are to be, remain, or become healthy) compromise.
    However, for each Enneagram / MBTI combination, there are some compromises that are like trying to burn water, some which can be done, but only at *enormous* cost of energy and will, some which take growth but then can be maintained, some which are "no brainers"...

    I think the key for maximizing happiness in a relationship, or relationship compatibility, is to find someone with whom your mutual compromises, are as low-cost and bearable as possible.

    For the non-bolded, living in the moment. Something I need more of. Thank you *so* much for sharing this and inspiring me to at least whine at the front door like a dog begging to be let out.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  4. #124
    The Typing Tabby Array grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Agreed!

    Goal > Plan People get overly attached to their well laid plans which just adds unnecessary stress when LIFE happens and your plans go to shit. The ability to adapt and change direction as/when needed is a very useful life skill.
    HEY! I *resemble* that remark. (I'm willing to bet that @uumlau would have some choice and pithy observations, though...)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  5. #125
    bad woman Array miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    For the bolded, I'd modify the statement a bit.

    Any successful long term relationship will require (if both parties are to be, remain, or become healthy) compromise.
    However, for each Enneagram / MBTI combination, there are some compromises that are like trying to burn water, some which can be done, but only at *enormous* cost of energy and will, some which take growth but then can be maintained, some which are "no brainers"...

    I think the key for maximizing happiness in a relationship, or relationship compatibility, is to find someone with whom your mutual compromises, are as low-cost and bearable as possible.

    For the non-bolded, living in the moment. Something I need more of. Thank you *so* much for sharing this and inspiring me to at least whine at the front door like a dog begging to be let out.

    as with lawyers, one must be careful about reading my wording

    willing to compromise = getting enough benefits out of the relationship that doing some things that go against your nature (i.e. things involving organization for some of the very P people) is a price you'll happily pay

    and everyone can benefit from enjoying the moment a bit from time to time. if there were an atheist bible it should probably be included somewhere (the whole "you only have now so enjoy everything you can")
    “The good are innocent and create justice. The bad are guilty, which is why they invent mercy.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #126
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    as with lawyers, one must be careful about reading my wording

    willing to compromise = getting enough benefits out of the relationship that doing some things that go against your nature (i.e. things involving organization for some of the very P people) is a price you'll happily pay

    and everyone can benefit from enjoying the moment a bit from time to time. if there were an atheist bible it should probably be included somewhere (the whole "you only have now so enjoy everything you can")
    both sides getting enough benefit to be happy, not just getting by or struggling. That's why marriages end. Not enough of what's needed, that's different for each person. Compatibility in my opinion is what helps us reach that instead of having to focus on just getting along
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  7. #127
    bad woman Array miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    both sides getting enough benefit to be happy, not just getting by or struggling. That's why marriages end. Not enough of what's needed, that's different for each person. Compatibility in my opinion is what helps us reach that instead of having to focus on just getting along
    or as my mom and dad have both said on different occasions

    "It's a good relationship if both of you feel like you are the lucky one and want more than anything to make the other as happy as they make you"

    they still hold hands
    “The good are innocent and create justice. The bad are guilty, which is why they invent mercy.” -Terry Pratchett
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  8. #128
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick
    Chart-the-Course™
    (Drive to get a desired result)The theme is having a course of action to follow. People of this style focus on knowing what to do and keeping themselves, the group, or the project on track. They prefer to enter a situation having an idea of what is to happen. They identify a process to accomplish a goal and have a somewhat contained tension as they work to create and monitor a plan. The aim is not the plan itself, but to use it as a guide to move things along toward the goal. Their informed and deliberate decisions are based on analyzing, outlining, conceptualizing or foreseeing what needs to be done.
    This all sounds very goal oriented to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Goal > Plan People get overly attached to their well laid plans which just adds unnecessary stress when LIFE happens and your plans go to shit. The ability to adapt and change direction as/when needed is a very useful life skill.
    This is a problem for INTJs, indicating our focus on goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Focussing on results does not negate being process-oriented.
    In a way, it does. When push comes to shove, which do you let win out? An NTJ will choose goals almost every time. My organization is incredibly process oriented, to the point that as long as you follow the process they deem correct, they don't seem to care much what the outcome is. That is INTJ hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Remember when you were renovating and you talked about smashing a wall down with your INTJ Dad (I think, sorry if I remember the details incorrectly)? You didn't care how you smashed it down, you just wanted it out of the way, and you picked up the handiest tool to do the job and wham, mission accomplished. A J-type, generally however, will focus on how to get the wall down, will consider all of the details first of that. The consider what process they will use to get there.
    That is just because the J has more than one goal. Not only does he want to take the wall down, he wants to minimize time and mess, or to be able to recover and reuse the wall components, or to avoid damage to surrounding structures, or to avoid something going wrong.

    By the way, this is the key to "ends justify the means" philosophy and why it really is OK. Namely, you must include ALL your goals in the calculation.
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  9. #129
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This all sounds very goal oriented to me.


    This is a problem for INTJs, indicating our focus on goals.


    In a way, it does. When push comes to shove, which do you let win out? An NTJ will choose goals almost every time. My organization is incredibly process oriented, to the point that as long as you follow the process they deem correct, they don't seem to care much what the outcome is. That is INTJ hell.


    That is just because the J has more than one goal. Not only does he want to take the wall down, he wants to minimize time and mess, or to be able to recover and reuse the wall components, or to avoid damage to surrounding structures, or to avoid something going wrong.

    By the way, this is the key to "ends justify the means" philosophy and why it really is OK. Namely, you must include ALL your goals in the calculation.
    And one of the main goals in most things is it must have a purpose. That's a huge issue with INFP and INTJ, INFPS don't always have a great purpose, it's an idea to try. INTJS then take that idea add goals and create a purpose which may not even match the initial idea very much anymore. My dad does this with my mom's ideas. He adds all these goals, overly complicates, and it no longer even really does what my mom wanted. He places priorities oN the goals that drive the process which means that the original idea may not be a very high priority or goal and it turns out to be what he wants and not what she wants.

    This is not necessarily a bad thing or a good thing. It's dependent on the person that had the original idea. My mom has to force herself to find the good and skew her original path as a means of dealing with her emotions. I come into the situation, listen to my mom, look at what my dad did and can tell what went wrong instantly. I then tell my mom how to tweak what my dad did to accomplish what she wanted and we end up with best of both worlds. He very frequently judges goals and uses that judgement to add priority which is used to create the process and the outcome.

    IPs while we are laid back and all we do judge a persons competence and because of this it knocks down the INTJs competence not because the process or outcome is crap, but an orange was asked for and a nectarine was returned due to rearrangement of multiple goals. Now if the person doesn't know what they really want this can be an awesome thing, but usually the INTJs goals don't match close enough for this to happen as frequently with an INFP as it would another type.

    I use my dad because I work together with him alot because I enjoy it. I keep him on track with goal priorities so it's not really an issue with us. That is our bickering and it's not really anger or yelling, but a back and forth of how to reach MY desired outcome which is why he falls back to "its your house" as a way to ease disagreement. Me and him are very different when it comes to what we want or like. I work with many INTJs at work as well and the interactions tend to be very similiar as well.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.
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  10. #130
    Senior Member Array riva's Avatar
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    Didn't read much of the posts in this thread. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

    This is gonna be all over the place.

    I think it would work. I really haven't seen it happen though and even heard it thought I've seen atleast a 1,000 pots on the INTJ ENFP combo.

    INFPs have that who are you really, i want to get to know you, once I know you I will see the best in you quality about them. Or maybe it happens the other way around.

    I mentioned this somewhere else, in the ENFP INTJ relationship the INTJ becomes the giver who has fulfills everything that an ENFP lacks. Getting shit done, getting shit done on time, being orderly, methodical, somewhat regimental (but much more flexibly than compared to STJs). Also, INTJs are good at dealing with life. Life life life which we realize we don't know how to deal with until we become adults and no one taught us how.

    However, INTJs aren't the best at dealing with romance which ENFPs provide. I think the ENFPs see the inner good guy (from what I have experienced INTJs are the best most dependable friends one could have) in INTJs and hold on to it and bring it out and insist the intj brings it out. INTJs not being so open are for the first time met with a female who wants to know them and likes them for who they are. Eventhough they might be dorky.

    However, ENFPs get bored fast and leave without a trace. Not with INTJs because they are too much to lose. I am not saying ENFPs are being manipulative, it's just they complement each other well.

    So, I guess this could be applied to INFPs too? They are less magnetic and wouldn't dig as deep and take much much longer to warm upto you, but they eventually would and that would be stronger than an ENFP INTJ bond, cus INFPs don't have the wild I wanna run away thing going on.

    besides both types are introverted. that would compliment one another.

    I have an INTJ friend who used to say I need a quite girl who doesn't bother me. He was being serious, he hooked up with a really ugly quite girl who never bothered him. This happened cus he was previously dating a high enery extroverted slut who kinda exhausted him.

    Not saying ENFPs are slutty, but I do think they would exhaust the INTJ.

    INFP not to much.

    Now if they can learn to be tidy!
    .

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