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  1. #101
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Great post, I very much enjoyed your thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Each of us may perceive reality in a different way, and this is a fine place to discuss the differences. IMO it's entirely out of place to say or imply that you see how reality actually is, whereas others merely frame reality in various ways.
    Agreed.

    That said, I'll mention that my INTJ wife, when I explained Reinin's Static/Dynamic dichotomy to her, expressed disbelief in the Static view. She couldn't imagine that anyone would see things that way.
    I find this fascinating really. Both ways seem clear, in that I see the preferences leaning one way or the other for everyone - I can see who favors process and who's averse to it. But of real interest to me over the years is how unable those favoring the dynamic model seem to be at 'seeing' the existence (never-mind the legitimacy) of the static framework. I've wondered about this for a long time. When I was younger, I thought I must be broken or something to dislike process so intensely. I tried to twist and contort myself to be more process-oriented, figuring it might be something I could improve. Those favoring process, after all, are such outspoken advocates for it, and I grew up with two Pi dominant parents.

    For the INFP (and seven other types), there's usually an interest in getting past the process (including any process of change) to the desired result or outcome.
    Yes, absolutely - and that's the part I get stuck on as though it's unfair somehow - this seeming inability for 'process-people' to get the fact that half the world isn't wired that way. Why don't they get that?

    I'm sure you're right. But it's still discouraging to me when, after a long effort, I finally reach the crest of a hill, only to see that the path goes on and on over more and more hills. Each time I near a crest, I'm thinking, "This may be it! Could be we've almost arrived at the place we were headed to." And then my heart sinks when it turns out the destination is still far off. It's immeasurably worse if pursuing the goal is like chasing the horizon or the end of the rainbow. Without the joy of arrival and the reward of resting on my laurels, no journey ever seems worthwhile to me.
    I relate to this completely. The process seems to mean little if the destination or desired outcome is not reached. The process seems somewhat meaningless in and of itself. I seldom look back with nostalgia reflecting on the journey, it's more like, "Thank heavens I survived the work - the boredom, exhaustion, tedium and the grind of the process to get here." I'm all about maximizing the efficiency of the process to tighten up the timeframe whilst maintaining quality of the end result.

    Yeah, some time long after the celebration, I'll probably grow tired of the plateau I've reached, and then I'll be ready for another journey. But that's for the future. And when that day comes, it'll feel to me like a brand-new journey, not part of some never-ending process.
    Yep.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #102
    Member Chickennugget's Avatar
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    my bestie is an intj... i get along really well with T's in general idk man. enfp thing?but the infps i know get along well with them but get hella emotional. then again, so do i hahaha.
    Hey! Take this bomb survey about human happiness. It's pretty open-ended, and it's for a fun project I'm doing because why not?

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I'm getting mightily tired of people in this forum claiming to know all about reality--and how their view of reality is "how it really is," while mine must be some kind of weird fairy tale or distorted misconception. I've gotten that from a few people just in the past week (all NTs, IIRC). Each of us may perceive reality in a different way, and this is a fine place to discuss the differences. IMO it's entirely out of place to say or imply that you see how reality actually is, whereas others merely frame reality in various ways.
    Some of us know actually know how reality is. Its not a perception, perception requires a judgement of what something "means". But there are people who do not apply that judgement, they take it as data points and reality is "everything" that fits into those data points. So if I see someone crying, reality is that person is crying, trying to figure out what that "means" is where you jump into perception. Is she really sad or just putting on a show. Reality is concrete, we make it otherwise due to lack of enough data points and an attempt to try to understand. Reality is not reading between the lines, its staying on the line. It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and its nothing more then a perception.
    Im out, its been fun
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  4. #104
    Senior Member Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Some of us know actually know how reality is. Its not a perception, perception requires a judgement of what something "means". But there are people who do not apply that judgement, they take it as data points and reality is "everything" that fits into those data points. So if I see someone crying, reality is that person is crying, trying to figure out what that "means" is where you jump into perception. Is she really sad or just putting on a show. Reality is concrete, we make it otherwise due to lack of enough data points and an attempt to try to understand. Reality is not reading between the lines, its staying on the line. It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and its nothing more then a perception.
    It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and it turns out to be nothing more than excessive trust in sensory input and data processing. IMO what you call reality is actually illusion. (See Plato on noumena vs phenomena.) And you're doing a lot more interpreting than you realize.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    It cracks me up when people claim to know reality and it turns out to be nothing more than excessive trust in sensory input and data processing. IMO what you call reality is actually illusion. (See Plato on noumena vs phenomena.) And you're doing a lot more interpreting than you realize.
    Read this
    the noumenal realm was equated with the world of ideas known to the philosophical mind, in contrast to the phenomenal realm, which was equated with the world of sensory reality, known to the uneducated mind.[
    Sounds like someone just trying to propogate N...LMAO. Let me rewrite it from a pure S point of view

    the noumenal realm was equated with the world of ideas known to the headcases, in contrast to the phenomenal realm, which was equated with the world of sensory reality, known to the educated mind that is working to learn and understand what is.[
    LMAO...gotta love perception.

    Will read into it later, got a lot to do right now.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #106
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Maybe on some level that's true for everybody. But growth implies change, and people generally resist change. How many would pass up a shot at eternal bliss--a permanently static state that leaves one with no complaints whatsoever?

    Besides, if you're in a process of growth, it means you're currently lacking; your full potential is always out of reach. Doesn't that sound frustrating?

    Fairy tales end with "happily ever after"; the story doesn't go on from there. I think that implies that marriage, like heaven, is a state of eternal bliss. If real life isn't like that, I'm guessing many people wish it were.
    *pokes*

    are you a real person?

    growth happens naturally... things happen and we adapt and grow to overcome them. if something occurs that you've never experienced before you will have to grow and adapt in order to deal with it and that's just how life tends to work. the need to grow isn't a sign of failure or lack of completion as a human being... it's simply a part of existing. it's the reason that our species flourishes... without growth there would be no life and without growth our brains and bodies would turn to mush.

    the sign of a functional relationship is when you can both grow as people and still love who the other person is... when you can encourage the other to go for their dreams and get a degree or go for that promotion or learn something new and you support them and love them all the more for wanting to do something... for their passion.

    nobody is perfect and nobody has all of the answers... therefore growth is necessary. if you accept what you are as your full potential you're going to stagnate and fall farther and farther behind and you won't DESERVE for anyone to love you
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *pokes*

    are you a real person?

    growth happens naturally... things happen and we adapt and grow to overcome them. if something occurs that you've never experienced before you will have to grow and adapt in order to deal with it and that's just how life tends to work. the need to grow isn't a sign of failure or lack of completion as a human being... it's simply a part of existing. it's the reason that our species flourishes... without growth there would be no life and without growth our brains and bodies would turn to mush.

    the sign of a functional relationship is when you can both grow as people and still love who the other person is... when you can encourage the other to go for their dreams and get a degree or go for that promotion or learn something new and you support them and love them all the more for wanting to do something... for their passion.

    nobody is perfect and nobody has all of the answers... therefore growth is necessary. if you accept what you are as your full potential you're going to stagnate and fall farther and farther behind and you won't DESERVE for anyone to love you
    I know when I use the phrase incompatible, it means you will spend so much time on relationship issues that you have a hard time growing and the best way that you grow is apart from the person.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #108
    Senior Member Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *pokes*

    are you a real person?
    Sometimes I wonder.

    Yeah, I'm as real as anyone, but I'm extremely idealistic. The place where the rubber meets the road is the least interesting and most annoying place of all to me, so I try to stay above it--preferably in the driver's seat.

    But sometimes I guess I float up higher than that. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    If you accept what you are as your full potential you're going to stagnate and fall farther and farther behind and you won't DESERVE for anyone to love you
    However, I don't do that. If you think what I've been saying above has anything to do with "accept[ing] what [I am] as [my] full potential," you've got me all wrong. My potential--or anyone's--is, to my mind, a star to aim for.

    To you, I guess that implies movement or growth--you're focusing on the process of getting to the star. But to me, the focus is on arrival at the star. I'm not there yet--not by a long shot--but I mean to get there, and I'm going to be ecstatically happy when I arrive.

    It's the same process, whichever way you look at it. It has nothing to do with stagnating, but quite the opposite.

    All I'm saying is that it'd be discouraging to me to picture the star as just "pie in the sky"--an ideal that will probably always be beyond my reach. For me to have any interest in the journey toward that star, I have to believe that someday I'll actually be there--I'll have fully realized all my potential, and I'll be delighted with it.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

  9. #109
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    I know when I use the phrase incompatible, it means you will spend so much time on relationship issues that you have a hard time growing and the best way that you grow is apart from the person.
    any relationship where "the state of the relationship" takes up intellectual energy is a waste of time in my book...

    my sister makes that mistake on a regular basis... I don't want to have to think about "my relationship"... I wanna think about the person I'm with and what things I can do to make him happy (as long as he puts in a similar effort... if not, goodbye)

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    However, I don't do that. If you think what I've been saying above has anything to do with "accept[ing] what [I am] as [my] full potential," you've got me all wrong. My potential--or anyone's--is, to my mind, a star to aim for.

    To you, I guess that implies movement or growth--you're focusing on the process of getting to the star. But to me, the focus is on arrival at the star. I'm not there yet--not by a long shot--but I mean to get there, and I'm going to be ecstatically happy when I arrive.

    It's the same process, whichever way you look at it. It has nothing to do with stagnating, but quite the opposite.

    All I'm saying is that it'd be discouraging to me to picture the star as just "pie in the sky"--an ideal that will probably always be beyond my reach. For me to have any interest in the journey toward that star, I have to believe that someday I'll actually be there--I'll have fully realized all my potential, and I'll be delighted with it.
    to me, wishes without effort just brings to mind the glorious quote "if wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak"

    I don't tend to focus on reaching my full potential or any of that sort of thing... I live and I try to do the best that I can... I try to always learn new things, be open to trying new ideas and making my loved people happy and maybe that's all that there is in life... there is no star glimmering in the distance to reach for because the point of life is to live

    if I spent my time worrying about my potential I'd have already killed myself for that which I have squandered and squandered hard... I'm not an idealist, but I do just fine at getting by in life
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  10. #110
    Senior Member Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    any relationship where "the state of the relationship" takes up intellectual energy is a waste of time in my book...

    my sister makes that mistake on a regular basis... I don't want to have to think about "my relationship"... I wanna think about the person I'm with and what things I can do to make him happy (as long as he puts in a similar effort... if not, goodbye)
    I usually feel that way too. My wife (whose type is INTJ) brings up issues pretty often and seems to treat life, relationships, and everything as series of problems to be solved. Because I love her, I do my best to connect and talk things over with her, but that kind of thinking is really pretty alien to me. I just want us to be together and live our lives as best we can. Shifting things to an intellectual level seems pointless to me.

    to me, wishes without effort just brings to mind the glorious quote "if wishes were horses we'd all be eating steak"

    I don't tend to focus on reaching my full potential or any of that sort of thing... I live and I try to do the best that I can... I try to always learn new things, be open to trying new ideas and making my loved people happy and maybe that's all that there is in life... there is no star glimmering in the distance to reach for because the point of life is to live

    if I spent my time worrying about my potential I'd have already killed myself for that which I have squandered and squandered hard... I'm not an idealist, but I do just fine at getting by in life
    Well, I agree with half of that but disagree with the other half. I agree that wishing doesn't accomplish anything. When I speak of reaching for a star or aspiring to achieve my full potential, it's not just a wish; I dedicate and apply myself to it.

    But I can't relate to just "getting by" or living out this earthly life from day to day without giving a thought to anything higher. As I've said, I'm an extreme idealist--a fanatical pursuer of spiritual freedom and fulfillment.

    If I thought for a moment that the daily grind and a handful of hedonistic sidelights (even along with learning something new each day) comprised the whole of human life, then I might be ready to kill myself. No, for me this physical world and this particular life span is just the tip of the iceberg; there's far more to life than what meets the eye.

    That said, though, I'm sure balance is important. And the right way to live is different for each individual. Being lost in the clouds is as bad as being too deeply rooted in the earth.
    "Some would say that extended meaningful conversation is a thing of the past. But they'd say it more quickly." (Tom Morris)

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