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INFJ and ESTP/ISTP Relationships

highlander

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What do you think about relationships between INFJs and ESTPs or ISTPs? The focus of this is really on romantic relationships but it also makes sense to discuss your experience in situations where these two types interact in a significant way – such as friendship, at work, etc.

When it’s working – What are the joys and positive aspects of these relationships?
- How compatible do you think these two types are in general?
- Why are they attracted to each other?
- How to they compliment each other?
- How well do they understand each other and why?
- What are they like together raising children?

When it’s not working – What are the challenges when two people of this type are in a relationship?
- What are some of the communication challenges they can have?
- What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
- How can they take each other for granted?
- What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?

Advice for couples – What recommendations do you have?
- What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
- What advice do you have for each of the two types?
- If you are an INFJ, what advice do you have for the ESTP or ISTPs?
- If you are an ESTP or ISTP, what advice would you have for the INFJs?
 

ChocolateMoose123

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I dated an INFJ.

Attractions/Why it works:

We admire each other's individualism.
We are both quirky in our own ways and we respect that.
I enjoyed his genuine sincerity and utter sweetness.
Mutual introversion was cool.
We liked and did activities together. Mountain biking, etc.
Support each other easily.

When it's not working:
Communication. Meaning: I found it difficult to "understand" his private world and motivation. When asked INFJ cannot describe things well enough/concretely for ISTP to understand and change or fix. we are left guessing - usually wrong. Exhaustion accrues then becomes laziness and a tendency to stop "trying". Mutual distance occurs.

INFJ manipulation. When INFJ isn't getting their needs met they can become secret puppet masters. Pulling strings to get desired results but ultimately eroding trust. ISTP can see this and views it as underhanded and also deceptive. We begin to distrust the sincerity of INFJ emotion.

Saying all that. We are on good terms. So I think even when it goes bad there is a mutual "I get you. You're cool" vibe that never diminishes.

I think maturity and mutual desire to make it work overcomes all type relations. Not all type relationships are like this. This was just my experience.
 

small.wonder

So she did.
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As far as educated guesses go, I don't think I've ever dated an E/ISTP but I do have a good deal of experience interacting with them. I do think Enneagram type differences between individuals of these types need to be taken into account (but I would).

My Dad is ISTP and woah buddy, we can throw down. He pushes every button I have and seems pretty oblivious most of the time. That said, I think I've always felt a unique bond with him-- I've always been the only person who could reason with (or bully) him. We both would say pretty much anything, things that make my ESFP Mom and ENFJ brother leave the room (but we usually chuckle about later). I've had very few tender moments with my Dad, but when my nephew was born in June (something about becoming a Grandfather?) at one point, he was really vulnerable and told me that he'd always felt I was the only one who understood him. All in all, I'll say ISTP + INFJ in my experience is a lot of fire and frustration, but waters can run deep if both people are conscious of their emotional health.

ESTP is much more attractive to me, and anytime I've encountered them, the sentiment seems mutual-- there's always some kind of playful banter. ;) I like their way of being direct, even if it's over the top. I'm pretty sure my best childhood friend is ESTP. She and I had power struggles on a regular basis as kids, haha. We aren't as close as we once were, but we still tell each other like it is. I also know that I'm one of the few people she feels like she can be vulnerable with and express pain to. I think that's for two reasons: 1) she knows I can take it, and that I don't shy away from hard things. 2) she feels safe, and knows I'm trustworthy. This combo is gold, I won't be surprised if I end up with an ESTP (maybe ENTP).
 

greenfairy

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I don't have much experience with ESTP's other than my stepbrother, and we were never close as he was obnoxious. Now that he's an adult and less obnoxious we get along ok but have zero in common. I have had several ISTP friends and lovers, one in particular with whom I'm very close. ISTP's and I get each other and get along well.

Positive: He appreciates how open and honest I am and accepting. I appreciate the same things in him. He likes that I have ingenuity and I like that he is competent at figuring out concrete problems. We are a good team at engineering type things.

Negative: He hasn't told me specifically things he doesn't like about me, so I don't really know. I know if we dated we would fight a lot because the dynamics in his relationship with his wife are things I don't like and I can be pretty persistent and belligerent when I am upset, which I think he wouldn't like too much. He also can be manipulative, which I have more or less circumvented by being up front and honest in everything, but I know he still says things he thinks I want to hear and sometimes wants to keep things from me at first if he thinks I will be upset.
 

Ene

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[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]I think this is a great idea for discussion threads.

What do you think about relationships between INFJs and ESTPs or ISTPs?

I think it has potential if both parties really care for each other and are willing to work at it.


When it’s working – What are the joys and positive aspects of these relationships?

I have been in various kinds of relationships with ISTPs and ESTPs, student-teacher, friends, siblings and even a romantic one. One of my sisters is an ISTP and one of my brothers is an ESTP.

An ISTP runs the Martial Arts school with me. He and a male INTJ are probably my two closest friends in the world, who aren't related to me. We are both in a relationship, so we never even approached the subject of romance. I don’t even know if he finds me attractive or not. The topic just never comes up. Still, when I need help for…anything…he’s there, and I do the same for him. I mean if he called me in the middle of the night and needed me to come to his house, I’d go and I know he’d do the same for me. We have a bond. And our SOs just have to deal with it, because it's not going away. We have something better than romance. I don't know what it is, but it's good. It's like we're blood brothers or something, except I'm female.

He did tell me once that if he had to be stranded on a deserted island or in the jungle with anyone, he’d want it to be me. We have talked about how we often arrive at the same conclusion but come at it from opposite ends. We even laugh about it. I know how he is going to react to most situations and he knows how I’m going to react. We like many of the same things. I think that if circumstances were different that I “could” be in a relationship with an ISTP.

My sister is an ISTP and we have a very similar bond. I know she’d do ANYTHING for me and I for her. Both she and ISTP pal are the most loyal friends a person could ever hope for.

I was once in a romantic relationship with an ESTP. The truth is that I cared for him, but it couldn’t last. He was kind and generous to me, but I always felt something was missing, that he was in love with an ideal of who I was and not really who I was, if that makes any sense to you. The relationship moved too fast for me and what he interpreted as me wanting to go into a full-blown life-long relationship was just me not being quite sure how I felt I yet, not having had time to process what was happening. He was saying "I love yous" before I was even sure what I felt or if I felt. However, I did feel like I had lost myself and had somehow become just a figment of someone else’s fantasy. I needed to reground myself, to re-examine myself.

I know he still loves me, though we live far apart and have gone our separate ways, we still talk [via email and a rare phone call], but I haven’t seen him in a long time. I wouldn’t even agree to have coffee with him after we went our separate ways because he didn’t want it to end and I did and I didn’t want him to keep making me feel guilty every time I got around him. He did this sad puppy dog thing, like a dejected child and I just had to make a clean cut. I knew a relationship with him would be eternally one-sided. He would be joyful and I would feel empty. I mean it’s like we had the best physical relationship you can imagine. We had all the “romance” and still…something was missing for me. I cared and still care for him, but I couldn’t spend my life with him then or now.

- How compatible do you think these two types are in general?
I think they can be very compatible, depending on the individuals and their maturity level. I also think that the relationship “could” be one-sided. I could spend a lifetime with my ISTP friend, but we have no strings attached. We have no sense of “ownership,” no expectations and that is what’s so beautiful about our relationship. But my ESTP ex-boyfriend, there was this sense of “ownership” in that I always felt like something he was showcasing to other guys. I don’t know if that’s a good way of putting it, but I sometimes felt that he felt he had to “take care of me,” even when I was perfectly capable of taking care of myself. He still offers to send me money and “take care of me,” but I always turn him down.

- Why are they attracted to each other?

I love that my ISTP friend is strongest in my weakest areas and he loves that I am strongest in his. We totally complement each other. I love that we are both introverts and that we are both laid-back. I love that I can see his Fe when he thinks nobody is looking and I love how that he is fearless. He likes how I never give up and won't turn my back on a friend and that I keep my word and that he can count on me. We have literally placed our lives in one another's hands on more than one occasion. And once, he may well have saved mine.

*EDIT BEGINS HERE* (Rather than making another post, I edited this one to finish answering the questions.)


When it’s not working – What are the challenges when two people of this type are in a relationship?
- What are some of the communication challenges they can have?

I think that one of the biggest challenges is that the relationships can very easily become one-sided. The ESTP thought he understood me, but he really didn't have a clue. He only knew the tip of the iceberg and always commented on how terribly "deep" and "ethereal" I was. He didn't want to talk about that "stuff." And that is ultimately what led to me walking away. I HAVE to talk about that stuff and I have to talk about it in a way that he simply couldn't do, even when he tried. He just couldn't. It was like trying to explain color to a person born without eyes. The person my understand the concept, yet he will never understand the experience of seeing color without some sort of visual miracle.

- What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
How can they take each other for granted?
- What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?

For me, I think it's that, even with my ISTP friend, I often feel that my Ni is dismissed, but since we are not in a romantic, live-together relationship, it doesn't matter and I can always talk to my INTJ friend about whatever Ni thing is gnawing at me. (He always gets it.) For example, the ESTP always wanted me to be "the center of attention." He never believed me when I told him I was an introvert, that I needed time alone. He didn't seem to understand my need to spend hours by myself, and not with him. He smothered me, to always take on over him. Once I told him that I was pretty sure that he was in love with the way I made him feel when he was with me and not with me. He said he couldn't wrap his head around that one. He wanted me to be front and center and he liked the way he felt when everybody was raving about the girl he was seen with. I felt he was really in love with an idea and not the actual person. I remember trying to share my heritage with him and he sort of patronized me and dismissed it [we were from different cultural backgrounds.] I remember trying to share my spiritual beliefs with him and again, he sort of swept them under the rug as if they weren't the main part of who I am. The quickest way to loose an INFJ is to have her share her most sacred thoughts with a guy and then he says, "I never bought into that spiritual stuff." Seriously, her next words may well be, "Have a nice life. I'm gone." And then she is. IF and that's a big IF she shares her real mind with you and you make an off-hand comment, the damage may become irreparable. Because likely, her biggest fear is that she will share something sacred only to have it brushed aside. She will walk away and she won't look back or reconsider.

Another thing to realize is that Ni-doms are fiercely independent. He wanted to "protect" me all of the time. He saw me as "vulnerable" and felt that I needed someone to look out for me, but I didn't and I don't and I never have. I felt like his pet, so the relationship lasted only a couple of years. Ironically, we never had an open fight. But, I just wasn't happy and I knew it wasn't right, though he felt it was. It was a very one-sided relationship. He was getting his needs fulfilled, but I wasn't.


Advice for couples – What recommendations do you have?
- What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
- What advice do you have for each of the two types?
- If you are an INFJ, what advice do you have for the ESTP or ISTPs?
- If you are an ESTP or ISTP, what advice would you have for the INFJs?

If you are an INFJ in a relationship with an ESTP realize that looks do matter to him and realize that he probably likes to look good in public and in front of his friends. Realize that he needs to be doing something or goings somewhere much of the time. Realize that he may bend the truth to make himself look better and that initially, he may tell you pretty much whatever he thinks you want to hear. Realize that he may not think a thing trough before he launches into it, including relationships.

My brother, who is an ESTP, can be very compassionate, but he can also be rash, abrasive, crude and rushes in where angels fear to tread without regarding the consequences. Martial fidelity has not been his highest quality. He has had a tendency to be reckless and live life on the wild side, but he also has a sweetness to him and is very childlike in many ways.

I think with an ISTP, that if you earn their trust, and grow together, that there is potential for a fantastic relationship. Both are introverts, both are independent. ISTP's strengths are INFJ's weaknesses and vice versa and if you learn to work as two-sides of the same coin, it's a beautiful thing. Maybe, it's the same with an ESTP. I wouldn't count it out.
 
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miss fortune

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my sis is an infj and we've known each other for almost 30 years now...

it's an odd relationship because in a way we're on the same wavelength in a way that you don't run across often, but then again, we can't get along if we spend too much time close together

she lives over an hour away and we text silliness back and forth pretty often... I usually help her out with practical things, her concerns aren't usually that attached to practical matters and I've bought her groceries, cell phones and a computer and have threatened to kick the ass of errant boyfriends (and once did)

she's the more thoughtful, sensitive and emotional one of us... if you get something that's actually heartfelt it's from her... she's also the artistically talented one and has things like friends and social connections

I don't keep ties with others well... and I'm apparently a bit of an asshole, though the dutiful daughter and sibling... we've always had a sibling rivalry that way since I'm the overachiever in a lot of ways and tend to express myself by doing things and she's the prodigal daughter who people light up around

our biggest issue is that she's super sensitive and reads things into what I say all of the time and I'm an insensitive ass who says things like "you're making a big deal about nothing... get over it for goodness sake!" :rolleyes:

advice for couples? learn to grasp the good and LEARN TO COMMUNICATE! some of us aren't hiding malevolent intentions in what we say and I DO realize that telling someone to stop being a big baby probably isn't the most effective
 

Xander

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Why ESTPs and ISTPs?

The advice would be entirely different between a second hand car salesman and a socio-path!

....oh, I see...

Basic issue, INFJs bury their emotions beneath a mountain range thinking that it's obvious anyway where as the other two are likely to miss it or give up looking because if it's not flagged or delivered via an Acme rocket then why bother. Also the INFJ I know seems to value peace...can't imagine either STP delivering that though the ISTP (typical one, that is) has a better shot.

I don't understand the whole "When it's working" bit because that's personal to the individual and not related to type particularly.

As for recommendations, as with any relationship, you be yourself and be honest. If it doesn't work under that system or you find no means to compromise then perhaps this isn't "the one".
 

Poki

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I can easily see myself having a romantic relationship with an infj. I know a couple, some I would date, others I wouldn't. But its not personality, its knowledge and openness that would determine it.

I don't think they would have much issues with me either. I can be open enough and close enough, they just have to initiate more at first to break the ice and find common ground to have a solid base.
 

autumnandtherain

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I used to think I could never get along with an ESTP, but I believe one of my good friends is actually an ESTP and it's a very comfortable relationship. We can sit and just enjoy each other's presence without awkwardness, or say just about anything to each other without offense. He also draws me out of my shell and helps me to be more adventurous and try things I might not on my own. I don't like initiating spontaneity but it can be nice when someone else does.
 

seradane

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Weirdly, of all the types out there, I know people who are examples of most types.. but not a single ESTP/ISTP I have known well enough to type as such. I don't know why, but I suspect I don't really get them and they don't really get me, and we just avoid each other.
 

Luv Deluxe

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I'm currently enjoying the second year of a serious relationship with an ISTP, and provided no unforeseen disaster separates us, this is probably the end of my romantic road. I feel like I have a fair amount to share with regard to my situation and why - for me, anyway - this combination works like a charm!


When It's Working

We get each other. Our cognitive functions may be rearranged, but they are the same cognitive functions nonetheless; I cover his weaknesses and he covers mine. It is as though we see more or less the same image, but through slightly different lenses or filters, so that we can contribute to each other's worldviews harmoniously, sharing and comparing almost always without disagreement. This process is not boring to me, and I don't feel like I'm dating myself at all. We are different people, but our preferences of communication style and methods for processing our environment are similar enough that we can understand each other easily.

I met my ISTP nine years ago at a summer orientation session for our chosen major at our chosen university, but due to the volume of introversion within each of us, we never grew especially close until much later. We did, however, help each other out during those scary school years and remain on mutual radar long after we graduated. He was mysterious and interesting, the quiet boy who was so nice to me during orientation but whom I could never quite figure out - and I was attracted to that. Whether intentionally or not, people are typically very open and easy to read insofar as I'm concerned, but this guy was both a puzzle and something familiar. The intrigue did not go unnoticed for him, either. After several nights of (consciously? unconsciously?) seeking out each other's company on Facebook chat at three in the morning, I mentioned that I would be taking a road trip and passing by his town should he desire to meet for a drink. This was the catalyst that finally set everything off, once and for all, though we were hesitant to call ourselves an official pair for a long time.

Mutual introversion, then, can work for or against you. I happen to prefer how slowly things transpired in my own relationship. The glacial pace enabled me to be more sure of my feelings as opposed to jumping into (and out of) a new, exciting sexual venture for the thrill of it, as my younger self was especially prone to. More than that, our relationship has never felt anything other than genuine; we were friends first, at our core, and we happened to be lucky enough to feel a mutual chemistry on top of that. I trust him with my life, and I do not doubt that he feels the same of me.

There are also the practical applications: we understand the need for time alone. Space is a good thing. Being alone is awesome. We respect our tandem need for solo hours and there are no hard feelings; neither of us is clingy and the claustrophobia that previous relationships imparted in me is not present now. I can't emphasize enough how wonderful this is. I get to be myself, by myself, and then I feel perfectly relaxed and balanced, comfortable in my own skin when we cuddle up at night.

Until I met my ISTP, I've never quite encountered anybody else (in person, anyway) who shared my need to keep myself separate from the world while also constantly indulging in it, immersed in it, playing in it. It's a contradiction, one that I struggle to explain sometimes because the feeling is so large. Essentially, I believe that - as [MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION] already pointed out - there is significant weight in one's Enneagram. My ISTP and myself are both introverted 7s. (I know that has the potential to open a completely different can of worms - sorry for those of you who feel that this typing is impossible, just bear with me if you can.) On that ground, I feel I've been very lucky to match with someone who empathizes with and validates these attitudes and approaches toward life. It really means a lot to me that I've found this in a romantic partner.

Perhaps in the same vein, then, I love that I'm never bored with him, nor he with me. We're changeable, active, physical, mental, excitable, restless, open-minded and artistic, eager to learn new things...in love with delicious food, loud music, and different places. Travel is a mutual priority. We share the same twisted sense of humor, and we make each other laugh all the time.

I have my preexisting interests and he has his, but we've happily exposed each other to the beauty of those previously unexplored corners of life and amazingly, everything seems to fit. Even those areas we've been working in our whole lives - like photography - have benefited from our partnership. He's so gifted with the technical aspects of the craft that he's taught me several of his tips and tricks and I've become much better than I was before. He's a great mentor that way. Similarly, I've helped him become more comfortable with expressing himself emotionally. He keeps me a little more grounded; I encourage him to explore his headspace (while avoiding the unpleasant bits, of course).

I'm unable to comment on the INFJ/ISTP-couple-as-parents portion of the topic, though, and this won't change unless I meet another, more family-oriented pair with this type combination. My boyfriend and I do not want children, but we do have a very large, ridiculous cat whom we spoil with snuggles and catnip.


When It's Not Working

When it comes to our innate preferences for dealing with emotions, we do have significant differences. This is probably the most noticeable source of friction that we've encountered (on the rare occasions our feathers are ruffled at all), but it's far from an insurmountable problem. If left to fester it could kill a relationship, but I think with adequate maturity and communication skills, it can also be turned into an enormous wellspring of personal growth for both parties involved.

Though we're both pretty cool on the surface, I am the more outwardly emotional one. If there's an issue bothering me, I'm less able to hide it or distract myself indefinitely. I prefer open communication because it helps me feel better to know that the emotional climate is comfortable, that he's at ease and we can resume the complete and utter enjoyment of each other. I have an extreme dislike of negative sensation, and am susceptible to feeling suffocated by a less-than-ideal environment.

My ISTP, on the other hand, tends to play the role of the strong, silent type. He's often described as "intimidating" by those who don't know him well or have only just met him, and I blame that almost entirely upon his reticence. He's far more reserved when it comes to voicing his emotions, sometimes outright denying anything's wrong (though I'm usually able to tell otherwise) or distancing himself from the source of irritation so well that not only will he not want to talk about it, he actually succeeds in burying it for the short-term. That's not to say he's an unemotional guy - he can be quite emotional, but I had to gently work at those layers to enjoy the warmth he has to share, to experience how thoroughly playful and caring he is with me.

Having said that, I can easily see how this particular conflict of expression could make a less patient pairing fly off the rails into oblivion, fast. I think ISTPs are inclined to deal with emotions by not dealing with them, or at least by being very slow or hesitant to verbally share them, and I think respect for their space in that area is indispensible. It's a learned practice of understanding when to reach out to them and when not to, but fortunately, INFJs are gifted, intuitive communicators and can probably trust themselves to gauge the situation accurately enough. Let the ISTP go be Broody McBroodington or Tough Stuff Who Wrestles Sharks/Climbs Mountains/Builds a Better Mousetrap/LIFTS ALL OF THE WEIGHTS for a day if he or she needs to do that, and trust your gut that if they like and respect you, they'll come back soon enough. Don't sweat it too much, and whatever you do, don't pressure them, make demands, or give ultimatums. If you tell them that you're done unless they're back by eight, they're probably going to tell you off.

Moving right along, then, relationships are a two-way street (or three ways, four ways, whatever you're into). As much as I have fun being a little submissive, my ISTP and I wouldn't be where we are if he hadn't made some concessions to my needs as well. There are times when I know he feels a bit overwhelmed by my intensity, but instead of escaping immediately, he quietly puts his arms around me just to let me know he's there. That, for me, says quite a bit. If he feels compelled to go for a hike or a drive, he calmly tells me. We have an understanding that way, and as a couple, we've grown quite skilled at communicating whatever concerns we encounter. I think, as time has gone on, he's come to view those discussions as decidedly helpful tools. Furthermore, it helps that neither of us takes personal offense to anything being said; we are mature, intelligent adults and our relationship reflects that. Especially when we stay up until five in the morning playing video games in our underwear.


Since we're already on the topic, that pretty much leads me to this:

Advice for Couples

It helps to remember that ISTPs seem to be more demonstrative, physically, when it comes to emotion. Sometimes I tell mine that I love him. Sometimes he replies in kind...and sometimes he chirps at me like a bird, slaps my ass, or displays some other equally silly reaction. I'll take it, because it means he's comfortable with me and it may as well translate to "I love you, too." Gestures are ultimately a little easier for them, I think. About a month ago, mine spent a whole evening spontaneously building a new bookshelf for me, and it was awesome. Perspective is important. If you've got a less verbal ISTP who decides to change your flat tire, play an original bit of music for you, or maybe teach you proper knife-throwing technique...they're just cuddling you in a different way.

This isn't type specific, but I feel that it needs to be said, given that it may well be one of the biggest sources of satisfaction in my relationship: be on the same page when it comes to big-picture issues. If going the distance, or to have any hope of going the distance, explore your desire or lack thereof to have children (as just one example). I love my boyfriend very, very much, but I've got a general idea of how I'd like to navigate my world and children aren't in that picture; I find that for me, life's beauty and fulfillment can be found in all kinds of other ways. Don't enter a relationship thinking you can coax your partner over to your plan if it isn't theirs, too. I feel like this should be common sense, but it still occurs, often at the serious sacrifice of happiness. Know how your potential mate feels about marriage, kids, politics, religion, etc. before going rogue ninja and seducing them into being somebody else (or fighting endlessly with them for being who they are).

My boyfriend and I agree on all but religion; he's an atheist and I'm...spiritual/agnostic/mostly unconcerned. We've talked about it, and we have mutual respect for our positions without being shitty to each other. It has remained a non-issue. However, I know an awesome INFJ for whom religion is a very important part of her life; she would almost certainly not be interested in somebody like my ISTP, nor he in her. So take the big-picture stuff into consideration when it gets serious - or assess it earlier, if you're not interested in taking things as they come. Again, this probably goes without saying, but hey. There you go.

I also advise letting go of the N vs. S dichotomy, at least when it comes to those face-value stereotypes. INFJs can express themselves physically. ISTPs are neither stupid nor lacking depth. My ISTP and I can have conversations that last for hours, when stimulated and excited by a topic - and yes, the topic may be abstract. Sure, I tend to lean toward abstract topics, and sure, he may then expound upon their practical application, but we still connect and feel enthusiastic about shared ideas. There's seemingly a lot of bias against Sensors on the internet for that sort of thing, and I, in my early years of psychological type theory study, may have even been suckered into that myself. I think it is wisest to look beyond that, or at the very least, take it with a large grain of salt.

ISTPs do seem to have a particular attitude toward commitment, one I feel that I generally understand even if for slightly different reasons. My boyfriend is cool with it if we die together and has actually said as much, but we took our sweet time in growing closer to each other, orbiting like satellites until we collided - and in the beginning, having endured a series of terrible relationships, I was just about as stoked to commit to something serious as he was. It was kind of a mutual fear that we overcame together because we've decided that we're just that amazing. I'm interesting enough for him, he's interesting enough for me. Our relationship doesn't feel like a closed door or a removal of options; it feels like an emotional high that we're freely choosing to enjoy for as long as we like. And we really, really like it.

Oh, yeah - and the sex does not disappoint.
 

CubeWuerfel

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
12
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
I dated an ESTP once. I think generally INFJs like the adventurous and gregarious nature of the ESTP and how smooth they are regarding sensing matters which often troubles INFJs regularly. ESTPs on the other hand like how kind and thoughtful INFJs are and how invested and committed they are in their relationships. The ESTPs tertiary extraverted feeling I think makes them fear they'll be respected but never really loved which the naturally generous INFJ can easily sooth. From what I've seen, ESTPs (or just people in general) with INFJs are generally showered with affection and care and they're usually admired openly and feel truly special as a result which strokes their egos a lot. Being loveable to people just seems to be a weak spot for them.

For some reason, ESTPs tend to think they need to protect their INFJs from the 'bad' things and people in the world, they see them as naive somehow and innocent I guess.

As long as INFJs and ESTPs communicate a lot via extraverted feeling I think it should be fairly easy and comfortable. ESTPs might feel neglected if the INFJ spends time alone, doesn't reply to messages quickly. In my experience it's really all the Fe. Talk about those feels. Be vulnerable and you'll get him to your level rather quickly. Feelings are, it seems to me, the ESTPs weakness while it's been a strength for me as an INFJ that just has a better idea of how they work and how they're connected to people and everything and have this internal map with me constantly. You need the courage however to do all this, you need to get out of your comfort zone at times and act in the moment or the moment will pass and you end up thinking a lot but never doing it which is so hard for Ni doms very often, especially with Se doms that are harder to keep up with.

(I hope I could rearrange this cluster of thoughts in a structured enough way)
 

Steel

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2017
Messages
1
I was with and INFJ for 5 years(I'm ISTP) before we had to separate. We're still together in a way, because we both realize that it wasn't our connection or love for each other that was the problem, it was ultimately our communication. We're both a mystery to the other person, and that is what sucked me in to her. I like puzzles and so does she. Problem is, we don't speak the same language. ISTPS and INFJS have a bond, a certain connection that i don't think can be beaten. After we separated, i told her that it didn't matter if we were ever together romantically again. And if we are, it will be with no restrictions. Because while i am a very sensitive and emotional ISTP, my well only goes so deep before i close it off, and she's always need more emotional depth from me that i simply can't offer with my level of emotional maturity(10 yrs old or so) ISTPS are very tricky, because we are some of the most emotional and sensitive people, but we never let it show. Growing up, i was made to feel like emotions were for children, so i simply bury them and "act like a grown-up." I need an INFJ in my life, at least as a best friend. They help me fully realize what i'm feeling. They help me through it. We may never be together again, but our bond is simply too special for me to walk away from. We plan on making it work for both of us if we are ever romantic again.
 

Abcdenfp

Terpsichore
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
1,669
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7W8
I'm currently enjoying the second year of a serious relationship with an ISTP, and provided no unforeseen disaster separates us, this is probably the end of my romantic road. I feel like I have a fair amount to share with regard to my situation and why - for me, anyway - this combination works like a charm! When It's Working We get each other. Our cognitive functions may be rearranged, but they are the same cognitive functions nonetheless; I cover his weaknesses and he covers mine. It is as though we see more or less the same image, but through slightly different lenses or filters, so that we can contribute to each other's worldviews harmoniously, sharing and comparing almost always without disagreement. This process is not boring to me, and I don't feel like I'm dating myself at all. We are different people, but our preferences of communication style and methods for processing our environment are similar enough that we can understand each other easily. I met my ISTP nine years ago at a summer orientation session for our chosen major at our chosen university, but due to the volume of introversion within each of us, we never grew especially close until much later. We did, however, help each other out during those scary school years and remain on mutual radar long after we graduated. He was mysterious and interesting, the quiet boy who was so nice to me during orientation but whom I could never quite figure out - and I was attracted to that. Whether intentionally or not, people are typically very open and easy to read insofar as I'm concerned, but this guy was both a puzzle and something familiar. The intrigue did not go unnoticed for him, either. After several nights of (consciously? unconsciously?) seeking out each other's company on Facebook chat at three in the morning, I mentioned that I would be taking a road trip and passing by his town should he desire to meet for a drink. This was the catalyst that finally set everything off, once and for all, though we were hesitant to call ourselves an official pair for a long time. Mutual introversion, then, can work for or against you. I happen to prefer how slowly things transpired in my own relationship. The glacial pace enabled me to be more sure of my feelings as opposed to jumping into (and out of) a new, exciting sexual venture for the thrill of it, as my younger self was especially prone to. More than that, our relationship has never felt anything other than genuine; we were friends first, at our core, and we happened to be lucky enough to feel a mutual chemistry on top of that. I trust him with my life, and I do not doubt that he feels the same of me. There are also the practical applications: we understand the need for time alone. Space is a good thing. Being alone is awesome. We respect our tandem need for solo hours and there are no hard feelings; neither of us is clingy and the claustrophobia that previous relationships imparted in me is not present now. I can't emphasize enough how wonderful this is. I get to be myself, by myself, and then I feel perfectly relaxed and balanced, comfortable in my own skin when we cuddle up at night. Until I met my ISTP, I've never quite encountered anybody else (in person, anyway) who shared my need to keep myself separate from the world while also constantly indulging in it, immersed in it, playing in it. It's a contradiction, one that I struggle to explain sometimes because the feeling is so large. Essentially, I believe that - as [MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION] already pointed out - there is significant weight in one's Enneagram. My ISTP and myself are both introverted 7s. (I know that has the potential to open a completely different can of worms - sorry for those of you who feel that this typing is impossible, just bear with me if you can.) On that ground, I feel I've been very lucky to match with someone who empathizes with and validates these attitudes and approaches toward life. It really means a lot to me that I've found this in a romantic partner. Perhaps in the same vein, then, I love that I'm never bored with him, nor he with me. We're changeable, active, physical, mental, excitable, restless, open-minded and artistic, eager to learn new things...in love with delicious food, loud music, and different places. Travel is a mutual priority. We share the same twisted sense of humor, and we make each other laugh all the time. I have my preexisting interests and he has his, but we've happily exposed each other to the beauty of those previously unexplored corners of life and amazingly, everything seems to fit. Even those areas we've been working in our whole lives - like photography - have benefited from our partnership. He's so gifted with the technical aspects of the craft that he's taught me several of his tips and tricks and I've become much better than I was before. He's a great mentor that way. Similarly, I've helped him become more comfortable with expressing himself emotionally. He keeps me a little more grounded; I encourage him to explore his headspace (while avoiding the unpleasant bits, of course). I'm unable to comment on the INFJ/ISTP-couple-as-parents portion of the topic, though, and this won't change unless I meet another, more family-oriented pair with this type combination. My boyfriend and I do not want children, but we do have a very large, ridiculous cat whom we spoil with snuggles and catnip. When It's Not Working When it comes to our innate preferences for dealing with emotions, we do have significant differences. This is probably the most noticeable source of friction that we've encountered (on the rare occasions our feathers are ruffled at all), but it's far from an insurmountable problem. If left to fester it could kill a relationship, but I think with adequate maturity and communication skills, it can also be turned into an enormous wellspring of personal growth for both parties involved. Though we're both pretty cool on the surface, I am the more outwardly emotional one. If there's an issue bothering me, I'm less able to hide it or distract myself indefinitely. I prefer open communication because it helps me feel better to know that the emotional climate is comfortable, that he's at ease and we can resume the complete and utter enjoyment of each other. I have an extreme dislike of negative sensation, and am susceptible to feeling suffocated by a less-than-ideal environment. My ISTP, on the other hand, tends to play the role of the strong, silent type. He's often described as "intimidating" by those who don't know him well or have only just met him, and I blame that almost entirely upon his reticence. He's far more reserved when it comes to voicing his emotions, sometimes outright denying anything's wrong (though I'm usually able to tell otherwise) or distancing himself from the source of irritation so well that not only will he not want to talk about it, he actually succeeds in burying it for the short-term. That's not to say he's an unemotional guy - he can be quite emotional, but I had to gently work at those layers to enjoy the warmth he has to share, to experience how thoroughly playful and caring he is with me. Having said that, I can easily see how this particular conflict of expression could make a less patient pairing fly off the rails into oblivion, fast. I think ISTPs are inclined to deal with emotions by not dealing with them, or at least by being very slow or hesitant to verbally share them, and I think respect for their space in that area is indispensible. It's a learned practice of understanding when to reach out to them and when not to, but fortunately, INFJs are gifted, intuitive communicators and can probably trust themselves to gauge the situation accurately enough. Let the ISTP go be Broody McBroodington or Tough Stuff Who Wrestles Sharks/Climbs Mountains/Builds a Better Mousetrap/LIFTS ALL OF THE WEIGHTS for a day if he or she needs to do that, and trust your gut that if they like and respect you, they'll come back soon enough. Don't sweat it too much, and whatever you do, don't pressure them, make demands, or give ultimatums. If you tell them that you're done unless they're back by eight, they're probably going to tell you off. Moving right along, then, relationships are a two-way street (or three ways, four ways, whatever you're into). As much as I have fun being a little submissive, my ISTP and I wouldn't be where we are if he hadn't made some concessions to my needs as well. There are times when I know he feels a bit overwhelmed by my intensity, but instead of escaping immediately, he quietly puts his arms around me just to let me know he's there. That, for me, says quite a bit. If he feels compelled to go for a hike or a drive, he calmly tells me. We have an understanding that way, and as a couple, we've grown quite skilled at communicating whatever concerns we encounter. I think, as time has gone on, he's come to view those discussions as decidedly helpful tools. Furthermore, it helps that neither of us takes personal offense to anything being said; we are mature, intelligent adults and our relationship reflects that. Especially when we stay up until five in the morning playing video games in our underwear. Since we're already on the topic, that pretty much leads me to this: Advice for Couples It helps to remember that ISTPs seem to be more demonstrative, physically, when it comes to emotion. Sometimes I tell mine that I love him. Sometimes he replies in kind...and sometimes he chirps at me like a bird, slaps my ass, or displays some other equally silly reaction. I'll take it, because it means he's comfortable with me and it may as well translate to "I love you, too." Gestures are ultimately a little easier for them, I think. About a month ago, mine spent a whole evening spontaneously building a new bookshelf for me, and it was awesome. Perspective is important. If you've got a less verbal ISTP who decides to change your flat tire, play an original bit of music for you, or maybe teach you proper knife-throwing technique...they're just cuddling you in a different way. This isn't type specific, but I feel that it needs to be said, given that it may well be one of the biggest sources of satisfaction in my relationship: be on the same page when it comes to big-picture issues. If going the distance, or to have any hope of going the distance, explore your desire or lack thereof to have children (as just one example). I love my boyfriend very, very much, but I've got a general idea of how I'd like to navigate my world and children aren't in that picture; I find that for me, life's beauty and fulfillment can be found in all kinds of other ways. Don't enter a relationship thinking you can coax your partner over to your plan if it isn't theirs, too. I feel like this should be common sense, but it still occurs, often at the serious sacrifice of happiness. Know how your potential mate feels about marriage, kids, politics, religion, etc. before going rogue ninja and seducing them into being somebody else (or fighting endlessly with them for being who they are). My boyfriend and I agree on all but religion; he's an atheist and I'm...spiritual/agnostic/mostly unconcerned. We've talked about it, and we have mutual respect for our positions without being shitty to each other. It has remained a non-issue. However, I know an awesome INFJ for whom religion is a very important part of her life; she would almost certainly not be interested in somebody like my ISTP, nor he in her. So take the big-picture stuff into consideration when it gets serious - or assess it earlier, if you're not interested in taking things as they come. Again, this probably goes without saying, but hey. There you go. I also advise letting go of the N vs. S dichotomy, at least when it comes to those face-value stereotypes. INFJs can express themselves physically. ISTPs are neither stupid nor lacking depth. My ISTP and I can have conversations that last for hours, when stimulated and excited by a topic - and yes, the topic may be abstract. Sure, I tend to lean toward abstract topics, and sure, he may then expound upon their practical application, but we still connect and feel enthusiastic about shared ideas. There's seemingly a lot of bias against Sensors on the internet for that sort of thing, and I, in my early years of psychological type theory study, may have even been suckered into that myself. I think it is wisest to look beyond that, or at the very least, take it with a large grain of salt. ISTPs do seem to have a particular attitude toward commitment, one I feel that I generally understand even if for slightly different reasons. My boyfriend is cool with it if we die together and has actually said as much, but we took our sweet time in growing closer to each other, orbiting like satellites until we collided - and in the beginning, having endured a series of terrible relationships, I was just about as stoked to commit to something serious as he was. It was kind of a mutual fear that we overcame together because we've decided that we're just that amazing. I'm interesting enough for him, he's interesting enough for me. Our relationship doesn't feel like a closed door or a removal of options; it feels like an emotional high that we're freely choosing to enjoy for as long as we like. And we really, really like it. Oh, yeah - and the sex does not disappoint.

this was really spot on description for me of my experience with my istp now (in an enfp sorry I know it was meant for INFJ's) I am learning so much currently and I think a couple of hiccups that made me hesitant and lead to a lot of miss communication I've highlighted below but I am currently beginning to understand their nature much better and it helps so much with navigating communication. Thank you for this post. It confirms a lot for me.

I can easily see how this particular conflict of expression could make a less patient pairing fly off the rails into oblivion, fast. I think ISTPs are inclined to deal with emotions by not dealing with them, or at least by being very slow or hesitant to verbally share them, and I think respect for their space in that area is indispensible. (100%)
It's a learned practice of understanding when to reach out to them and when not to, but fortunately, INFJs are gifted, intuitive communicators and can probably trust themselves to gauge the situation accurately enough. Let the ISTP go be Broody McBroodington or Tough Stuff Who Wrestles Sharks/Climbs Mountains/Builds a Better Mousetrap/LIFTS ALL OF THE WEIGHTS for a day if he or she needs to do that, and trust your gut that if they like and respect you, they'll come back soon enough. (I can feel a shift in his emotional state way before he acknowledges it but I have begun to do just that let him be wind chaser and Realizing slowly but surely, he always comes back)
It helps to remember that ISTPs seem to be more demonstrative, physically, when it comes to emotion. Sometimes I tell mine that I love him. Sometimes he replies in kind...and sometimes he chirps at me like a bird, slaps my ass, or displays some other equally silly reaction. I'll take it, because it means he's comfortable with me and it may as well translate to "I love you, too." Gestures are ultimately a little easier for them. (With out question, this confused me for so long because I'm so verbal but I am beginning to see that now they are just cuddling you in a different way I see that now.

Oh, yeah - and the sex does not disappoint. #Ditto
 
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