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  1. #1
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default INTJ and ESFJ/ISFJ Relationships

    What do you think about relationships between INTJs and ISFJs or ESFJs? The focus of this is really on romantic relationships but it also makes sense to discuss your experience in situations where these two types interact in a significant way – such as friendship, at work, etc.

    When it’s working – What are the joys and positive aspects of these relationships?
    - How compatible do you think these two types are in general?
    - Why are they attracted to each other?
    - How to they compliment each other?
    - How well do they understand each other and why?
    - What are they like together raising children?

    When it’s not working – What are the challenges when two people of this type are in a relationship?
    - What are some of the communication challenges they can have?
    - What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
    - How can they take each other for granted?
    - What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?

    Advice for couples – What recommendations do you have?
    - What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
    - What advice do you have for each of the two types?
    - If you are an INTJ, what advice do you have for the ESFJ or ISFJs?
    - If you are an ESFJ or ISFJ, what advice would you have for the INTJs?

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  2. #2
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Hmm...

    Never dated an INTJ. From the few INTJ females I knew I always got the feeling that I was...for lack of a better word, underdeveloped, compared to them. They always seemed to be operating on a much higher level than I, mentally speaking. I suspect they would have been bored with me.

    A shame too, I thought they were rather fascinating too.

    Anywho, to actually answer your questions....

    - How compatible do you think these two types are in general?
    - Why are they attracted to each other?
    - How to they compliment each other?
    - How well do they understand each other and why?
    - What are they like together raising children?
    1) Any two types can work, it just depends on the individuals in question. I think I have a lot of complimentary qualities to an INTJ and they to me, but I can also see how I must frustrate or bore one to tears.
    2) Knee jerk answer: BECAUSE DER HAWT!! Serious answer: That's anyone's guess.
    3) The INTJs I knew seemed emotionally very distant or oblivious, which I think an ISFJ could compliment. The INTJs I knew though seemed to distain apathy whereas apathy and sloth are some of my weaknesses.
    4) Again, the individuals in question. I seem to do very well with NFs so maybe their's hope for NTs as well
    5) Assuming they're not killing each other, I would think they'd do very well. I strongly suspect the INTJ would take the lead and the ISFJ would follow their lead.

    - What are some of the communication challenges they can have?
    - What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
    - How can they take each other for granted?
    - What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?
    1) Depends on the individuals, but I suspect it will be that both sides will think the other is focusing on something really stupid or trivial and so it would be very easy to dismiss the other.
    2) See above
    3) Could happen, but that hey happen in any relationship regardless of type.
    4) The ISFJ becomes bitter and passive aggressive, the INTJ doesn't hold back anymore, and blood shed usually results

    - What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
    - What advice do you have for each of the two types?
    - If you are an INTJ, what advice do you have for the ESFJ or ISFJs?
    - If you are an ESFJ or ISFJ, what advice would you have for the INTJs?
    1) Be clear about what you say, and try not to assume anything until you get to know each other
    2) Patience and giving your partner the benefit of the doubt will work wonders on a relationship. The absence of either of those is a receipt for disaster.
    3) Not an INTJ, but as an ISFJ: Don't over think it, we're a simple folk (note: simple does not mean stupid) so stick to simple, direct gestures to get our attention and then remember that for us, words are truly wind, and that actions very much mean everything and we are WATCHING EVERYTHING YOU DO.

    Especially if you have a very nice tush :>
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    I hope more people respond to this thread because I have actually wondered about how these two might get along. I suspect that my INTJ friend's estranged wife is an ISFP but I'm not quite sure. I don't know her well enough.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #4
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Interesting it is estimated that that between 27 - 37% of all women are of these two types.

    Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org

    It's a pretty common pairing. I will talk about my experiences - probably over the weekend.

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  5. #5
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Opposing Quadra + Opposing Temperament + Mutual Supervision = Conflicting Duality. (ILI-ESE)

    Usually both might be drawn together under the illusion that the other is their dual sociotype, only to find themselves in psychological conflict, in part due to the projection of the values of the dual onto the conflictor for merely operating in the exact same technical sphere as their dual (ILI drawn to SEE's world, and thus ESE's world; ESE drawn to LII's world, and thus ILI's world).

    Conflicting relations undoubtedly have the highest disadvantage to forming a pleasant relationship, which also, unfortunately, produces a similar quality of "moths drawn to a flame" like Semi-Duality, only with both partners trying to mold each other into each others' duals through advice given through the Ego Block, causing both distress as both types want to avoid the neuroticism caused by their Super-Ego block.

    In essence, it would be like the two partners trying to "fix" each other, with both becoming heavily frustrated at the other's resistance, as is played out in the classical scenario of conflicting relations. Of course there are outliers, but far fewer than other disadvantageous relations.

  6. #6
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I've always found with S types in my life there is SOME sort of communication barrier. S and N just operate on different wave lengths, and while those intersect frequently, the peaks and troughs definitely make their appearances.. and you end up with mistranslated intentions, ideas, concepts, etc. When all's well, this isn't a big deal... but so many major concepts can be lost in translation. The S type can think something is fine, and the N type as well, but for completely different reasons and expressed in completely different ways.

    I think two J's together is almost always a great idea.. Assuming they're healthy individuals compatible with each other at all (because there are incompatibilities that have nothing to do with type so I'm excluding that stuff) two J types won't drive each other up a wall.

    SFJs in general have this incredible capacity for empathy. It's something INTJs really need because while INTJs don't lack empathy... they lack the ability to express empathy to others. SFJs I think are like the type O in typology central.. almost anyone can receive them well. INTJs are pretty rough on many types, and I'd argue even types that aren't typology related (like type 4 enneagrams) and SFJs have a bit of endurance to settle in and handle the things INTJs throw at them. In comparison to, say, the ENFP who might bottle things up and get frustrated and think everything is obvious how can someone mess this up, I always found SFJs to be far more level headed in my life.

    I can see the INTJ making the SFJ feel inferior. INTJs in particular are notorious for their lack of emotional communication, not placing much emphasis on it in their lives and trying to put it on the back burner. SFJs can nurture this, and bring it out of a person, but if the INTJ is resistant to that I see some power struggle and power play happening.

    SFJs, to me, are problem solvers too. Very practical mind sets. Which is another reason I think the two are very compatible.

    Clearly I'm more optimistic than some would be, but I find that INTJs's aloofness means they're a bit adaptable to their environment.. so anyone with some understanding, and patience behind their belt is going to be suitable for them. I think extroverts nurture their adventurous side, and introverts tend to support their need for time.. so either way I don't see one type trumping the other.

    S/N miscommunications are... frustrating at times. Even during simple things like how one tells jokes. But truly, when I look at other N-type relationships in my life, while I really enjoyed them.. that wave length alone wasn't the make-or-break in the relationship. The bigger concepts that make a good relationship trumped those silly things every time. While I have frustration with S types, the communication DOES need to be more open, and I wish sometimes they would intuitively leap at what I'm getting at and follow the way I bounce in conversations... Communication is key in a relationship, and the more open those lines are the better. And what I found my N partners doing was RELYING on that intuition to replace communication. No bueno, it doesn't really work in practice.
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  7. #7
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I will read and think more about this later and probably edit my comment to reflect as such, but my mom and dad were an INTJ-ISFJ pairing and I've known one other, and it has always seemed weird to me. My parents weren't ultimately compatible, but they got along well in some respects. The other couple seems to be. Both seemed to reflect traditional gender roles. I wonder if this is a trend. I kind of resented the INTJ for this, but if he has someone who is into it then who am I to judge what people want to do.

    EDIT 2: Oh and I just remembered- my dad's second wife is also an ISFJ. They seem a lot more compatible personality-wise, but probably the same things can apply to some degree.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    3) The INTJs I knew seemed emotionally very distant or oblivious, which I think an ISFJ could compliment. The INTJs I knew though seemed to distain apathy whereas apathy and sloth are some of my weaknesses.
    1) Depends on the individuals, but I suspect it will be that both sides will think the other is focusing on something really stupid or trivial and so it would be very easy to dismiss the other.
    4) The ISFJ becomes bitter and passive aggressive, the INTJ doesn't hold back anymore, and blood shed usually results
    These all seem to have been true with my parents, although there was fortunately no literal bloodshed.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    5) Assuming they're not killing each other, I would think they'd do very well. I strongly suspect the INTJ would take the lead and the ISFJ would follow their lead.
    Actually it seemed to be the opposite. ISFJ's are very assertive in domestic matters, and they'll let you take the lead in others. Although that might mostly be the women; the men might just want to have their own space and routines, and probably like to cook.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    3) Not an INTJ, but as an ISFJ: Don't over think it, we're a simple folk (note: simple does not mean stupid) so stick to simple, direct gestures to get our attention and then remember that for us, words are truly wind, and that actions very much mean everything and we are WATCHING EVERYTHING YOU DO.
    This is very true of the ISFJ's I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Opposing Quadra + Opposing Temperament + Mutual Supervision = Conflicting Duality. (ILI-ESE)

    Usually both might be drawn together under the illusion that the other is their dual sociotype, only to find themselves in psychological conflict, in part due to the projection of the values of the dual onto the conflictor for merely operating in the exact same technical sphere as their dual (ILI drawn to SEE's world, and thus ESE's world; ESE drawn to LII's world, and thus ILI's world).

    Conflicting relations undoubtedly have the highest disadvantage to forming a pleasant relationship, which also, unfortunately, produces a similar quality of "moths drawn to a flame" like Semi-Duality, only with both partners trying to mold each other into each others' duals through advice given through the Ego Block, causing both distress as both types want to avoid the neuroticism caused by their Super-Ego block.

    In essence, it would be like the two partners trying to "fix" each other, with both becoming heavily frustrated at the other's resistance, as is played out in the classical scenario of conflicting relations. Of course there are outliers, but far fewer than other disadvantageous relations.
    This is interesting. I don't know much about Socionics, but I have wondered a lot about relationship dynamics with cognitive function patterns between types. Like when I found out there was an ENFP-INTJ fetishism thing going on, I wondered if there was an ENTP-INFJ fetishism thing, as it is the same pattern. So, by this pattern, INFJ's would have the same dynamic with ISTJ's, yes? I myself have never ever wanted to date an ISTJ. They are nice and can be entertaining in their own way, but they have never seemed particularly exciting or sexy. I guess if I wanted someone to just take care of me for practical reasons and not cause too much drama, an ISTJ might be a good option, but this seems like it would be really unfulfilling and I don't imagine many INFJ's are into traditional gender roles. But I could be wrong. This is why I was surprised to learn of the INTJ-ISFJ dynamic, because I would think INTJ's wouldn't be into it; but maybe it's mostly INTJ men looking for subservient women. I dunno, I can't keep my personal bias about relationship styles out of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    SFJs in general have this incredible capacity for empathy. It's something INTJs really need because while INTJs don't lack empathy... they lack the ability to express empathy to others. SFJs I think are like the type O in typology central.. almost anyone can receive them well. INTJs are pretty rough on many types, and I'd argue even types that aren't typology related (like type 4 enneagrams) and SFJs have a bit of endurance to settle in and handle the things INTJs throw at them. In comparison to, say, the ENFP who might bottle things up and get frustrated and think everything is obvious how can someone mess this up, I always found SFJs to be far more level headed in my life.
    I think I can agree with everything you have said here, but this is a good point and a very reasonable explanation. I think I have a tendency to equate all this with being subservient, and while the two certainly can overlap, this is a much better assessment.

  8. #8
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I've always found with S types in my life there is SOME sort of communication barrier. S and N just operate on different wave lengths, and while those intersect frequently, the peaks and troughs definitely make their appearances.. and you end up with mistranslated intentions, ideas, concepts, etc. When all's well, this isn't a big deal... but so many major concepts can be lost in translation. The S type can think something is fine, and the N type as well, but for completely different reasons and expressed in completely different ways.
    I think this is likely because you're an Ne-dom, and less so from the differences between S vs. N. In my experience, as a bulk I have communication barriers much more frequently with T types, than I do with S types. Which, would make sense since I am an Fe-dom. The dominant function will have a stronger opposition to it's opposing element compared to the aux function.
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  9. #9
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think this is likely because you're an Ne-dom, and less so from the differences between S vs. N. In my experience, as a bulk I have communication barriers much more frequently with T types, than I do with S types. Which, would make sense since I am an Fe-dom. The dominant function will have a stronger opposition to it's opposing element compared to the aux function.
    That very well could be it. I don't really study typology much at all, I like the enneagram better (and even then I'm a jerk and only study my own type ), I only know the basics + experiences with identified types on the forum and irl.
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  10. #10
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I love them!
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