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  1. #11
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    Conflicting relationship.

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I myself have never ever wanted to date an ISTJ. They are nice and can be entertaining in their own way, but they have never seemed particularly exciting or sexy. I guess if I wanted someone to just take care of me for practical reasons and not cause too much drama, an ISTJ might be a good option, but this seems like it would be really unfulfilling and I don't imagine many INFJ's are into traditional gender roles. But I could be wrong. This is why I was surprised to learn of the INTJ-ISFJ dynamic, because I would think INTJ's wouldn't be into it; but maybe it's mostly INTJ men looking for subservient women. I dunno, I can't keep my personal bias about relationship styles out of this.
    There is definitely something to be said for having someone take care of you in practical ways - making meals, doing laundry, seeing to bills and appointments and repairs. My mother did this for me during some of my grad school years and I took full advantage of it, though I always tried to express my gratitude and do what I could for her. I can't imagine this being enough in a partner, though, for two reasons. (1) I expect more from that sort of relationship - someone I can connect with and share life with on a deeper level. (2) If caring for practical matters was my partner's focus in life, I would feel they were cutting themselves off from so many other opportunities, almost depending on me, or on our relationship, for too much.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I've always found with S types in my life there is SOME sort of communication barrier. S and N just operate on different wave lengths, and while those intersect frequently, the peaks and troughs definitely make their appearances.. and you end up with mistranslated intentions, ideas, concepts, etc. When all's well, this isn't a big deal... but so many major concepts can be lost in translation. The S type can think something is fine, and the N type as well, but for completely different reasons and expressed in completely different ways.

    I think two J's together is almost always a great idea.. Assuming they're healthy individuals compatible with each other at all (because there are incompatibilities that have nothing to do with type so I'm excluding that stuff) two J types won't drive each other up a wall.

    SFJs in general have this incredible capacity for empathy. It's something INTJs really need because while INTJs don't lack empathy... they lack the ability to express empathy to others. SFJs I think are like the type O in typology central.. almost anyone can receive them well. INTJs are pretty rough on many types, and I'd argue even types that aren't typology related (like type 4 enneagrams) and SFJs have a bit of endurance to settle in and handle the things INTJs throw at them. In comparison to, say, the ENFP who might bottle things up and get frustrated and think everything is obvious how can someone mess this up, I always found SFJs to be far more level headed in my life.

    I can see the INTJ making the SFJ feel inferior. INTJs in particular are notorious for their lack of emotional communication, not placing much emphasis on it in their lives and trying to put it on the back burner. SFJs can nurture this, and bring it out of a person, but if the INTJ is resistant to that I see some power struggle and power play happening.

    SFJs, to me, are problem solvers too. Very practical mind sets. Which is another reason I think the two are very compatible.

    Clearly I'm more optimistic than some would be, but I find that INTJs aloofness means they're a bit adaptable to their environment.. so anyone with some understanding, and patience behind their belt is going to be suitable for them. I think extroverts nurture their adventurous side, and introverts tend to support their need for time.. so either way I don't see one type trumping the other.

    S/N miscommunications are... frustrating at times. Even during simple things like how one tells jokes. But truly, when I look at other N-type relationships in my life, while I really enjoyed them.. that wave length alone wasn't the make-or-break in the relationship. The bigger concepts that make a good relationship trumped those silly things every time. While I have frustration with S types, the communication DOES need to be more open, and I wish sometimes they would intuitively leap at what I'm getting at and follow the way I bounce in conversations... Communication is key in a relationship, and the more open those lines are the better. And what I found my N partners doing was RELYING on that intuition to replace communication. No bueno, it doesn't really work in practice.
    Lots of good points...

    I think on many of those ideal type quizzes, people would get INFJ, but what they wanted really sounded like ISFJs with a cultured, intellectual streak. People think they are unaffected by cultural ideals, but they aren't exempt anymore than most people. SFJ women will naturally embody the ideal, due both to their tendency to develp in relation to external ideals and to influence its very definition by being the most populous type; this creates a cycle between how they develop and what is regarded as ideal or "normal" (ie. they embody "woman" in most people's minds). SFJ men may not embody all male stereotypes, but they too can embody ideals. They may strike the balance between being traditionally masculine in many ways but with a sensitive, caring streak (ie the stuff of romantic comedies).

    I think it's sad that the appeal of this type for many is how they tend to adapt to others' wishes and seem willing and even satisfied with taking care of mundane domestic details so that their SO can pursue their passion. It seems like an extremely egotistical, selfish reason to desire someone as a partner, and Ive seem it play out first hand for ISFJs with partners who walk all over them. In other words, people may like the ISFJ because they get their way and the ISFJ panders to them. Not all ISFJs will fall for such a dynamic, but it's still sad that is the major appeal.

    All that said, in general, I find xSFJs the least empathetic of all the F types (and was not surprised to see this noted by Dario Nardi), because most of them really struggle to grasp any experience which doesn't fall within their internalized concepts of "normal" and "appropriate". This makes them very dismissive or critical of things they don't understand in others. Sure, they may display loads of sympathy, but it's only when they can easily grasp the feeling. I suspect that this is a matter of inferior Ne, as NFPs seem to do best with imagining "foreign feelings" and seeking to fully grasp prior to making judgement.

    My experience with SFJs, as a Fi type, is that they are highly critical of personalities which they don't grasp readily and which may not fit into their Si picture of how reality is. However, if close to someone already, than they may make more effort to understand them, but not without criticism and efforts to reform (perhaps in an emotionally manipulative way). At best then, you're dismissed as an idiosyncrasy to "how reality is".

    In short, this combo probably works best when the INTJ plays their role "correctly" in the relationship and perhaps has a rather "normal" social image as well.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 03-08-2015 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Typo
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    This all refers to INTJ/ISFJ

    When it’s working – What are the joys and positive aspects of these relationships?
    - How compatible do you think these two types are in general?
    I think there is reasonable compatibility and stability between these two types. Both are introverts, dominant perceivers and judging types. They are both reasonable, clear thinking, practical and tend to not get overly excited about things in general, though the INTJs can get worked up if they fall into a "grip" experience.

    - Why are they attracted to each other?
    This is a true attraction of opposites. They share none of the top four cognitive functions and in fact, the function order is completely reversed, with the INTJ being Ni>Te>Fi>Se>Ne>Ti>Fe>Si and ISFJ being Si>Fe>Ti>Ne>Se>Fi>Te>Ni. The INTJ will admire the ISFJ's social prowess and judgment with people interactions. The ISFJ is capable of helping the INTJ to grow and develop their social and interpersonal interaction skills. INTJs tend to be very stable and committed in relationships, which the ISFJ will appreciate.

    - How to they compliment each other?
    It's a very functional relationship from the standpoint of division of labor - a true working partnership. The INTJ has a penchant for strategy and may handle the investments, planning for the future and other similar things. The INTJ will be the more career oriented of the two is is likely to work long hours. ISFJs enjoy doing things for other people and are much better at handling detailed day to day items than the INTJ, which the INTJ will appreciate.

    - How well do they understand each other and why?
    The INTJ will understand the ISFJ much better than the ISFJ will understand the INTJ. The ISFJ will be very good at predicting what the INTJ will do on a day to day basis but they won't have much of an appreciation for the INTJ's mind or thought process. The INTJ will be the one to confront issues and be persistent in focusing on improving the relationship.

    - What are they like together raising children?
    It is a functional partnership for raising children. The INTJ will encourage the children to become independent and realize their full potential, appreciating their achievements, whereas the ISFJ will do an excellent job of caring for their day to day needs while being quietly firm and clear on expectations and discipline. ISFJs are very good parents.

    When it’s not working – What are the challenges when two people of this type are in a relationship?
    - What are some of the communication challenges they can have?
    Because they are so different from each other, communication can be a problem. As stated above, the ISFJ may never truly understand or fully appreciate the INTJ. They simply aren't conventional or "appropriate" enough at times. The ISFJ will get annoyed at the INTJ's lack of empathy and social interaction skills.

    - What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
    Since they don't have much in common, they may not like doing many of the same things. Also, though they can get along very well, this is not a deep soulmate connection.

    - What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?
    When the relationship is not in a healthy state, the INTJ can feel like they are not understood, bored and wishing at times for a deeper connection. The ISFJ can feel like they don't have enough joy in their life.

    Advice for couples – What recommendations do you have?
    - What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
    The INTJ needs to understand and appreciate the legitimacy of the ISFJ's extraverted feeling, which is very different than their introverted feeling. The ISFJ wants regular communication and wants to be listened to. ISFJs believe that action speaks louder than words and will appreciate if you do little things for them on a regular/consistent basis.

    - If you are an INTJ, what advice do you have for the ESFJ or ISFJs?
    Accept and appreciate the INTJ for who they are

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  5. #15
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What do you think about relationships between INTJs and ISFJs or ESFJs? The focus of this is really on romantic relationships but it also makes sense to discuss your experience in situations where these two types interact in a significant way – such as friendship, at work, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    When it’s working – What are the joys and positive aspects of these relationships?
    Both INTJ and ISFJ are fiercely loyal and longsuffering. Both intend to be in things for the long haul: nothing flighty.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - How compatible do you think these two types are in general?
    It depends on the shared values -- the intellectual processing is the exact opposite ; this may lead to misunderstandings, but it also means that if the two partners
    learn to tag team efficiently, then there is very little within the realm of human endeavor that one or the other can't handle...
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - Why are they attracted to each other?
    Opposites attract; INTJ is attracted to the social stability and "get along with people effortlessly and unostentatiously" ability of the ISFJ; the ISFJ is fascinated, not having heard that there even *was* something called "outside the box" except in rumour and mythology.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - How to they compliment each other?
    See the first comment on compatibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - How well do they understand each other and why?
    It requires retraining the instinctive processing, when dealing with the other, to think in terms of Calvin and Hobbes' "Opposite Day": an INTJ will tell you the core truth in order to make a resolution; the ISFJ will say virtually anything in order to avoid having to force a resolution. The goal is to get along, but the methodology is the exact opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - What are they like together raising children?
    Kids like to play divide and conquer. With the INTJ/ISFJ, the kids can grind out an easy first down on the ground, almost every time, simply by asking one parent out of earshot of the other...

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    When it’s not working – What are the challenges when two people of this type are in a relationship?
    ISFJs are, believe it or not, sensors; the INTJ may mistake the introversion of the ISFJ as meaning there is a hidden gooey center, but there is not: the ISFJ is like caramel dripping all over the outside of the apple. Don't bite down too hard!
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - What are some of the communication challenges they can have?
    t's like talking to someone who assigns the exact opposite of your intent to everything you say. You need to develop an ingoing and outgoing translator.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
    Realizing that the INTJ is not a defective human, just because they are an iconoclastic individualist; realizing that the ISFJ is not a defective introvert, just because they like doing "wheels on the bus" (home maintenance, cleaning, etc.) to recharge, instead of disappearing into the computer or a novel.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - How can they take each other for granted?
    They can take each other for granted in that each one is *very* reliable in their own way, and each is *VERY* good (under certain circumstances) about 'taking one for the team' and not speaking up about their needs: each can do this for an extraordinarily long time without appreciation, but around year 2,000,000, begin to develop grievances.
    Unfortunately, both ISFJs and INTJs tend to do the initial notice of "hey I'm burning out here, appreciate me some here" by passive aggressive behaviour, which is often misattributed.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?
    Mutual Pecksniffian disdain, each getting on a different high horse which the other one considers as laughable rather than intimidating.
    The INTJ must learn to read between the lines (at least) as well as to communicate indirectly; the ISFJ must stop looking for hidden messages in plaintext ASCII communications delivered in the present indicative tense.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Advice for couples – What recommendations do you have?
    Screw like bunnies. Learn to translate.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
    Take specific instances and break them down into bite size chunks; encourage regular feedback and double-checking of messages sent and interpreted.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - What advice do you have for each of the two types?
    Vive la difference! The other person's way *is* efficacious: but usually as these two move in different circles, they can't imagine anyone else like their SO, and can't for the life of them imagine anyone *they* know acting like their SO does, and getting away with it. Realize that the phrase "different strokes, for different folks" is *made* for this couple.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - If you are an INTJ, what advice do you have for the ESFJ or ISFJs?
    When the INTJ is recharging, don't interrupt. If you do interrupt, allow time for the INTJ to return to planet earth before speaking.
    If you don't do this, expect to have between 1/2 and 2/3 of your message irretrievably lost to the internet cloud.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - If you are an ESFJ or ISFJ, what advice would you have for the INTJs?
    Learn when to be quiet about what interests you, learn how to shmooze. Being socially adaptable isn't a sin.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  6. #16
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Also, ISFJs can be incredibly attractive to the INTJ. For me, there is the physical part - omg. Mine is very attractive. On top of that they are intelligent in a completely different way, which is very appealing as well.

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @grey_beard Hey, I have this same trouble....
    When the INTJ is recharging, don't interrupt. If you do interrupt, allow time for the INTJ to return to planet earth before speaking. If you don't do this, expect to have between 1/2 and 2/3 of your message irretrievably lost to the internet cloud.
    Just thought I'd let you know that I share the affliction.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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  8. #18
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @grey_beard Hey, I have this same trouble.... Just thought I'd let you know that I share the affliction.
    (jiggles toggle switch up and down) Is this thing on?

    ...must be the shared Ni, don't ya think?
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    t's like talking to someone who assigns the exact opposite of your intent to everything you say. You need to develop an ingoing and outgoing translator.
    I had to read this several times over to realize there must be a missing "I".

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    the ISFJ must stop looking for hidden messages in plaintext ASCII communications delivered in the present indicative tense.
    You have mentioned one of my main pet peeves. Of course it helps if the plaintext ASCII is correct, and complete. (See above.)

    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #20
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I had to read this several times over to realize there must be a missing "I".


    You have mentioned one of my main pet peeves. Of course it helps if the plaintext ASCII is correct, and complete. (See above.)

    Ah, but you just cocked your head to one side, figuratively, and ascertained the intended meaning.
    You didn't assign the opposite of my meaning to the (remainder of) the sentence. /return volley>
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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