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  1. #11
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    I deny it ALL!
    Likes Qlip, EJCC liked this post

  2. #12
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Based on my experience with several INTP friends and (primarily) my INTP dad:

    When it's working:

    INTPs and ESTJs working together can make for an amazingly effective and efficient team.

    Long version: they balance strategy (INTP) and tactics (ESTJ), vision (INTP) and execution (ESTJ). The INTP keeps the ESTJ from barreling into a situation without enough background information, and the ESTJ keeps the INTP on-task, funneling their more spread-out Ti/Ne brainstorming into something more concentrated and direct.

    Short version: They're pretty much the nerd/non-nerd shopping team.

    (I specify this "teamwork" thing primarily because firstly, it ends up being the way that ESTJs and INTPs end up doing anything together -- planning trips, going shopping, picking a movie to watch, etc. -- and secondly, both ESTJs and INTPs really enjoy that process, when it goes well.)

    INTPs and ESTJs can make for fast friends, in my experience, as long as the INTP respects the Te process and the ESTJ respects the Ti process. Besides that, the litmus test is if the ESTJ can loosen up enough around the INTP to show off their tertiary Ne. Otherwise they might be too "uptight" to have a lot of tolerance for the INTP's sense of humor.

    When it's not working:

    INTPs can be frustrated with ESTJs' tendency to "handle" people, especially when that implies (intentionally or otherwise) a power dynamic in which the ESTJ is perpetually in control. INTPs can feel condescended to in some situations with ESTJs, as if the ESTJ sees them as incapable of doing even the smallest of everyday tasks -- which is a pretty major sore spot for competency-focused INTPs.

    ESTJs can be frustrated by the slower and more methodical pace at which INTPs operate -- kind of a "tortoise and the hare" situation -- as well as the "sensotard" tendencies of many INTPs. The ESTJ may end up feeling a lot of resentment towards the INTP, for "making them do all the work" and "not appreciating them for it".

    Suggestions:

    INTPs, don't take ESTJs personally -- if they say they're doing something for a particular reason, but your instinct tells you that it's a reflection on you somehow, it is very likely not. And if you have concerns, ask them! 99% of the time they are an open book, and are totally fine answering any friendship or relationship questions directly and honestly. Also, let them know every once and a while that you notice all the work they do and appreciate them for it. As was mentioned in the INFP-ESTJ relationship thread, ESTJs are always planning with their friends and loved ones in mind -- whether those plans seem personalized or not.

    ESTJs, recognize what you can learn from INTPs. Their pace is slower because they want to be more accurate and deliberate -- not to mention because they actually know how to relax, unlike you. Recognize the things they take personally and the things they don't, and accommodate that. Don't assume that they are immune to being offended, just because they are so slow to anger.
    Thank you EJCC. That was insightful. I'm wondering how interested are you in the abstracts. Are you willing to discuss theoretical physics?

  3. #13
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by great_bay View Post
    Thank you EJCC. That was insightful. I'm wondering how interested are you in the abstracts. Are you willing to discuss theoretical physics?
    No problem, and thank you!

    Sometimes when I have conversations with INTPs -- and not every INTP, just the ones who are extroverted enough to feel comfortable taking the lead in intense discussions -- I get frustrated because I lose sight of 1) the point, and 2) the direction, of the conversation. I think that in order for me to enjoy having theoretical/philosophical discussions, I need to know those two things. Even if the topic of the discussion doesn't have a practical purpose, I need to feel like the discussion itself has one, and I need to be in touch with that purpose the entire time. INTPs and other types enjoy those sorts of conversations because they get to flex their intellectual muscle, not just in comprehending the topic -- which is my intellectual focus -- but in directing the conversation and shifting perspectives, taking it in new and interesting directions, and playing devil's advocate. Which is fine as long as I can follow along, and as long as I don't lose patience and interest.

    (I should have mentioned this in my first post, but I only just remembered it now. Ah well!)
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #14
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    No problem, and thank you!

    Sometimes when I have conversations with INTPs -- and not every INTP, just the ones who are extroverted enough to feel comfortable taking the lead in intense discussions -- I get frustrated because I lose sight of 1) the point, and 2) the direction, of the conversation. I think that in order for me to enjoy having theoretical/philosophical discussions, I need to know those two things. Even if the topic of the discussion doesn't have a practical purpose, I need to feel like the discussion itself has one, and I need to be in touch with that purpose the entire time. INTPs and other types enjoy those sorts of conversations because they get to flex their intellectual muscle, not just in comprehending the topic -- which is my intellectual focus -- but in directing the conversation and shifting perspectives, taking it in new and interesting directions, and playing devil's advocate. Which is fine as long as I can follow along, and as long as I don't lose patience and interest.

    (I should have mentioned this in my first post, but I only just remembered it now. Ah well!)
    Ok... is that a yes or a no.

  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by great_bay View Post
    Ok... is that a yes or a no.
    I can't answer "do ESTJs like talking about theoretical physics" with a yes or no. Nor can I answer "do ESTJs like talking about theory" with a yes or no. It depends on too many things... like the factors I described above.

    I will say that most ESTJs need the theory they talk about to have some kind of practical application. But the interpretation of "practical application" can depend heavily on the ESTJ -- making them much more or less likely to enjoy talking about topics like theoretical physics. Or the MBTI.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #16
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I can't answer "do ESTJs like talking about theoretical physics" with a yes or no. Nor can I answer "do ESTJs like talking about theory" with a yes or no. It depends on too many things... like the factors I described above.

    I will say that most ESTJs need the theory they talk about to have some kind of practical application. But the interpretation of "practical application" can depend heavily on the ESTJ -- making them much more or less likely to enjoy talking about topics like theoretical physics. Or the MBTI.
    Not everything has to have a practical application. That doesn't stop many people from playing Call of Duty.

  7. #17
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by great_bay View Post
    Not everything has to have a practical application. That doesn't stop many people from playing Call of Duty.
    Most things DO need to have a practical application, for ESTJs. But like I said, it depends on how you define "practical application". You have to have a leisure activity, or else you'd be working all day and would burn out. So leisure activities (such as Call of Duty) are absolutely necessary for your mental health. So I'd definitely call that "practical".
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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