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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by seradane View Post
    This is another reason why my ENTP is good for me - I tend to hide from criticism, would rather hang back than face being exposed, and admitting my own faults sometimes feels as painful as peeling the skin from my body. He freely admits his faults, is breathtakingly honest about darker parts of his past, and doesn't shy away from sensitive questions.

    It helps me to realise that's it's not so bad, not so scary. Sometimes admitting faults and mistakes can be freeing, and I don't have to deal with them all myself. I'm still getting there though.
    Yes, that's exactly this. Accepting faults, and mistakes, and going on.

    What can I say from "my" perspective (I can't think of myself being like all ENTP and her like all INFJ, but what you describe seems sometimes very similar) ?
    I "know" most of the "real" her, and what bothers her inside, but it took years for me. Perhaps...well, at least 5. And at least 3 at the beginning to accept her like she was. But she still amazes me. Sometimes I am overthinking sometimes, and when I give her my idea about something, she has just this sharp "well...that was obvious !". Or when she senses that someone is ill-disposed and manipulative, and tells everyone so, but nobody believes her. And weeks after, when it is too late, some people come and tell her..."oohh, you were right, i'm sorry i didn't believe you before". But she doesn't care of their apology, because she didn't tell them this to be right, but because she had to tell them.

    Someday, she is my real hero. For me, ENTP, I always sense that I lack morality. But she can, like i always say when I make fun of her, "pick up a forgotten flag, fallen in the dirt and covered with blood, and brandish it once again", even lost cause. She can fight for a real cause, selflessly, risks her position, facing her shyness and the her fear of public speaking, because it is what she has to do. That's what I call being a hero.
    I also nicknamed her "Cassandre" because she always knows, but is never believed, because the WAY she expresses it isn't accepted/understood by regular people (when I'm always trusted even when I lie). Even if they recognize her being generous, mostly right, hard worker, selfless, good leader etc.,

    Actually, I'm often stressed by her situation, because i can't control it. Her world is full of enemy, people who don't like her (because she always tells the truth, and sense (and tell it) when they don't). It can be very frustrating for an ENTP NOT to be able to FIX things, to help. So I try to take care of her, and when we talk and walk together, I always find a way to make her smile, laugh and many times we laugh like crazy, me like a clown. I know/think this is important for her, and, well, I'm good at it.
    With her friends it's always very complicated. Not because they don't like me, but she is quite reserved generally, and if i talk "normaly" (doing the show), I can't help but think that I "steal" her friends.

    About debate//lecturing, it's true. When I "lecture", it's because I want to be contradicted, to have a debate. If nobody contradicts me I won't stop. I want that somebody proves me that I am wrong, and then I can take this opinion and make it mine, and be closer from the truth, the knowledge. But for you, Good and righteousness is more important than being wrong. That is the only times we can quarrel, actually.

    And about the fact that I am very (very) talkative, it's because it helps me to focus on what I am doing. It's like...a second memory. I talk, and at the same time I think, and what I am saying is like in another part of my brain, so I can continue to think and use what I just said like if it was a written note.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    I also nicknamed her "Cassandre" because she always knows, but is never believed, because the WAY she expresses it isn't accepted/understood by regular people (when I'm always trusted even when I lie)
    It's not fair!

    Actually, I'm often stressed by her situation, because i can't control it. Her world is full of enemy, people who don't like her (because she always tells the truth, and sense (and tell it) when they don't). It can be very frustrating for an ENTP NOT to be able to FIX things, to help. So I try to take care of her, and when we talk and walk together, I always find a way to make her smile, laugh and many times we laugh like crazy, me like a clown. I know/think this is important for her, and, well, I'm good at it.
    And that's why ENTPs are the best. Although they're supposed to be chaotic and irresponsible, they somehow manage to be all that and yet also be big softies who deep down are all cuddles and nurturing (not that they'd ever admit it in public).

    With her friends it's always very complicated. Not because they don't like me, but she is quite reserved generally, and if i talk "normaly" (doing the show), I can't help but think that I "steal" her friends.
    Haha, yes, this is the same for us. I don't talk a lot in groups, and he jumps right in with my friends. Personally, I can say I don't mind at all. I actually really appreciate that he gets along so easily with all of my people.

    About debate//lecturing, it's true. When I "lecture", it's because I want to be contradicted, to have a debate. If nobody contradicts me I won't stop. I want that somebody proves me that I am wrong, and then I can take this opinion and make it mine, and be closer from the truth, the knowledge. But for you, Good and righteousness is more important than being wrong. That is the only times we can quarrel, actually.
    Hmm, interesting, the need to be contradicted? I haven't seen it in that light before. From my perspective it feels like he is trying to convince me of something - but obviously when I stop and agree he just keeps going, it doesn't resolve it, so that makes a certain amount of sense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    For the most part I disagree. Mental illness does the opposite - create areas of behavior that are nearly impossible for people to change, even when those areas are harmful to themselves and to their lives, which is why we view them as mental ill in the first place. The human mind is extremely malleable with some parts more stable then others - the more static elements tend to be a bit meta, not in the personality characteristics themselves so much as motivations and the processing of information which shapes how you grow and change in reaction to what's around you, though to some extent even your motivations can be shaped by new rewarding experiences as well as by further introspection.

    The motivation to do better by someone you care about is probably a more stable part of your core personality. The execution of that motivation depends on what you know of the other person, and when issues come up in a relationship you get to learn how to better execute it. You get to be better then you were the day before. The same is true for work environments which are largely based on skills and working knowledge, navigating social environments changed based on your understanding of social dynamics, etc. When it comes to execution, growth in your understanding translates into growth in how your personality manifests.
    I agree that as you grow and learn, you are able to navigate the world more successfully and effectively. But I believe those come about by more fully understanding your core self. You may be more or less aware of what it is doing, but it is always there.

    For example, I know I have a tendency to get stuck doing what I am doing - be it watching TV, playing games, whatever. So when someone asks me to do something less fun that I need to do, a chore, or whatever, I have learned I have to get up and do it right then, or I will get distracted by what I am doing, forget I got asked, and never end up doing it, no matter how good my intentions. So from the outside it appears I have gotten more productive, less lazy, whatever, whereas in truth it is a result of my more accurate understanding of myself, that I will always have that tendency, and thus I have figured out a way to work around it.

    Perhaps our difference of opinion is an E/I difference, we approach from within, you approach from without, so it makes sense you feel that the external world shapes you, wheras I feel the opposite! (In any case we may be getting a bit off topic! )
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by seradane View Post
    Hmm, interesting, the need to be contradicted? I haven't seen it in that light before. From my perspective it feels like he is trying to convince me of something - but obviously when I stop and agree he just keeps going, it doesn't resolve it, so that makes a certain amount of sense!

    He is exactly right - I've been in the same situation. This sometimes creates a funny but potentially destructive miscommunication: When something bothers me, and I really want a way to disprove it or find a way to solve it, precisely because I don't want to accept it as an unchangeable fact, I end up going over it again and again in my head and repeating it. The repetition is then interpreted by the INFJ as conviction, which to the INFJ suggests I really want to believe that it is an unchangeable fact.
    Another part is that the repetition might be clearer to Ni doms then it is to other people, because while they get distracted about the issue getting looked at from a different angle, for Ni doms its petty clear the point is still the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by seradane View Post
    I agree that as you grow and learn, you are able to navigate the world more successfully and effectively. But I believe those come about by more fully understanding your core self. You may be more or less aware of what it is doing, but it is always there.

    For example, I know I have a tendency to get stuck doing what I am doing - be it watching TV, playing games, whatever. So when someone asks me to do something less fun that I need to do, a chore, or whatever, I have learned I have to get up and do it right then, or I will get distracted by what I am doing, forget I got asked, and never end up doing it, no matter how good my intentions. So from the outside it appears I have gotten more productive, less lazy, whatever, whereas in truth it is a result of my more accurate understanding of myself, that I will always have that tendency, and thus I have figured out a way to work around it.

    Perhaps our difference of opinion is an E/I difference, we approach from within, you approach from without, so it makes sense you feel that the external world shapes you, wheras I feel the opposite! (In any case we may be getting a bit off topic! )
    Learning yourself is definitely part of the process, though I wouldn't call it "the core self". I tend to evaluate people according to their actions, so when the actions change, so does the person. A simple equivalent to this can be found in studies conducted on online education programs. While in the past it was thought that if someone has a difficulty in a subject they aren't as good in the subject, online education shows that different people have different points of difficulty, and when given a chance to run at their own pace instead of loosing a basic building block in understanding additional material, will overcome these difficulties and will then catch up swiftly with others who started studying the same time they did, in part because eventually others will reach their own hiccups. Could this points of difficulties really be considered part of the "core self" once they are overcome? What if instead of math or psychology or particle physics, this body of knowledge was "ethics", "relationship know how", "dealing with anxieties", and so on, and the education program was... Life itself. Would the hiccups be considered part of the core self then?

    Anyway, if this is besides the topic for you, that is perfectly understandable, you are currently in an INFJ/ENTP relationship so you can speak better to the benefits of one. It is personally relevant for me because it is the main obstacle to considering a relationship with someone who thinks like that, and it's a problem on my mind because rejecting relationship opportunities with people I have extremely good chemistry with is... Not fun. That's clearly not the case for all ENTPs, was not the case for me in the past prior to figuring this out, and who knows, it might not be the case for me in the future.

  4. #54
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    but obviously when I stop and agree he just keeps going, it doesn't resolve it, so that makes a certain amount of sense!
    I can't speak for your friend, but for me, when my friend tell me that she agrees, I always think "does she says this because I annoy her or because she thinks the same?" and secondly "do we think the same because of the same reason ?"

    Actually, it's more important for me to debate than to convince. I'm not an INTJ who wants that the point is settled. I like debating, and I am not searching to tell you you are wrong. I want to understand you, why you are thinking this. Telling me you are right is good for INTJ (more ISTJ, I think, because an INTJ will think you are telling this because you don't want to listen), I WANT you not the agree with me, so that we can debate ! A DEBATE PLEASE ! Of course this sounds like he wanting to convince you. This is the point of a debate, trying to convince. But the important part is convincing, not being "right" (considering that truth exists, which can be debated, anyway )

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Could this points of difficulties really be considered part of the "core self" once they are overcome? What if instead of math or psychology or particle physics, this body of knowledge was "ethics", "relationship know how", "dealing with anxieties", and so on, and the education program was... Life itself. Would the hiccups be considered part of the core self then?
    I would say yes - if you have to learn "dealing with anxieties" in the first place, then those anxieties are likely to always be there... maybe more or less, but although you have learned to overcome them, when you go do something different, learn something different, you are always going to run into a point where your anxieties threaten to derail you.. they may not win, because you have figured out how to manage them, but they will always be there.

    If you struggle with learning when someone's talking at you, without being able to interact, then you may eventually figure out you have to write things down, and then get a friend to talk you through it later, or something. Once you've figured that out, and implemented that, your performance improves, and you no longer appear to be struggling - but that doesn't mean the initial hiccup has gone away, it just means you are working around it.

    It's like performers who have a fear of being on stage, in the public eye... you'd never know it from their performances, but every time, before they get on stage, they have to steel themselves, trick themselves into thinking 'it's not so bad', bite the bullet and just go for it. That doesn't just go away once they've learned how to push past it. It might get a little easier, or their methods for dragging themselves up their get more effective, but they will never be that person who can breeze up their effortlessly without sweating a few bullets first.

    Of course, that being said, there are certainly some superficial 'habits' which are learned behaviours that are certainly not static, and people can overcome bad ones and learn good ones, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

    Anyway, if this is besides the topic for you, that is perfectly understandable, you are currently in an INFJ/ENTP relationship so you can speak better to the benefits of one. It is personally relevant for me because it is the main obstacle to considering a relationship with someone who thinks like that, and it's a problem on my mind because rejecting relationship opportunities with people I have extremely good chemistry with is... Not fun. That's clearly not the case for all ENTPs, was not the case for me in the past prior to figuring this out, and who knows, it might not be the case for me in the future.
    Ah, fair enough, I was just pointing out that on the surface it is a debate about the self, which although informative, is not quite relevant to the topic at hand - but if we can bring it back to the relationship being discussed, then certainly.

    But to that I would say: I don't think type theory is a particularly good indicator of relationship success or otherwise. To limit a relationship with someone because of their type would be closing yourself off to a lot of the joy and self-education that exists in getting to know another person, compatible or not.

    Firstly, almost every type is going to have habits that annoy you, ways of thinking that baffle you, manners that rub you the wrong way, whatever. Every person has their flaws and downsides. Many with nothing to do with type. There's no getting away from that.

    But every 'flaw' also comes in a sliding scale from extreme to minor. Using INFJs as an example and going back to your initial comment, since that's an easy example on hand, if you are to criticise their action, their reaction could be anywhere from: "OMG Why are you always so mean to me! You obviously don't love me anymore and think I'm an awful person and I'm going to curl up in a ball and sob until you apologise!" anywhere to "Well, I'm doing this action because of <explanation of some reason of self>, but I can see it bothers you so I'll try to be better at that in future, or maybe we can figure out some way inbetween."

    Naturally, the former would be very difficult for any partner to deal with, and is likely to get very old very quickly. The latter would be something you could work with, take steps together to resolve the point of contention - and thus though it might bother you, it can be managed. (And most of us are somewhere in between those two extremes, I'll grant!). Yet on paper, both are INFJs, they would both agree they have the same flaw.

    Anyway really it's not about finding someone that doesn't bother you - it's about finding someone that bothers you in ways that doesn't have you tearing your hair out from stress or losing sleep at night from worries. And where the good sides of the relationship more than balance out the bad. Turning someone with whom you have great chemistry down because of a theoretical aspect of their type that might bother you seems... unfair.

    While I'm not advocating to charge into a relationship with anyone with a spark of chemistry, all you can do is evaluate the person you are considering, not just their type. Type is just a tool we use to better understand those people who are in our lives and enrich our existing relationships. It shouldn't be a barrier.

    (Oops, and sorry for the wall of text, so much for wanting to rein things in )

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    I can't speak for your friend, but for me, when my friend tell me that she agrees, I always think "does she says this because I annoy her or because she thinks the same?" and secondly "do we think the same because of the same reason ?"
    Oh yes, he's definitely said the former to me before!

    Actually, it's more important for me to debate than to convince. I'm not an INTJ who wants that the point is settled. I like debating, and I am not searching to tell you you are wrong. I want to understand you, why you are thinking this. Telling me you are right is good for INTJ (more ISTJ, I think, because an INTJ will think you are telling this because you don't want to listen), I WANT you not the agree with me, so that we can debate ! A DEBATE PLEASE ! Of course this sounds like he wanting to convince you. This is the point of a debate, trying to convince. But the important part is convincing, not being "right" (considering that truth exists, which can be debated, anyway )
    You are trying to be convincing, but you don't want to convince!

    I do enjoy a debate too, but my enthusiasm just doesn't always seem to last quite as long as yours. And what I don't understand is when one party 'gives up', either through agreeing, or agreeing to disagree, doesn't seem to matter, you guys won't let the matter lie... the debate has to continue, even if it's only one sided!

    (For me if I'm not being argued against/new material to react to provided I find I will rapidly run out of things to say and taper off into silence even in the middle of my argument.)

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    I'm sorry you have the same issue than us, but, compared to the joy of living with an INFJ, the downsides of all of this are really minor
    Anyway, it's fun to see we have quite the same problem.

    I'm really trying hard to learn to stop talking. I can really stop when I'm thinking hard and lost in my mind (which will end with a "are you there?"), or when I'm seing really beautiful things, like the sea, the forest, the mountains, the full moon in a calm night, a storm, or any wonder from nature/man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What do you think about relationships between ENTPs and INFJs? The focus of this is really on romantic relationships but it also makes sense to discuss your experience in situations where these two types interact in a significant way – such as friendship, at work, etc.
    It's hard to peg behavior because most behavior seems to be a result of environment. I don't think the functions always manifest themselves in behavior ( unless I'm wrong?). We can only theorize in idealistic terms here which has a lot of bias. There would be a huge difference between an ENTP/INFJ couple ( or indeed , any type couple) that have the same values and ambitions vs. a couple that don't even have those things in common. I have no experience in this realm and I'm not sure of my type either.


    How compatible do you think these two types are in general?

    Cognitively speaking , fairly compatible to the extend each develops their tertiary functions. It's less likely to be successful in a younger couple but I can see it working very well for a more mature couple.

    Why are they attracted to each other?

    ENTPs usually exhume a certain confidence which is attractive to less secure INFJs. Even though ENTPs can appear to be ridiculous in some extremities they are comfortable in their own skin which is attractive for the INFJ. INFJs are calm , usually laid back, observers of humanity and every now and then feel an urge to mingle. ENTPs seem to be able to detect that there's a lot going on beneath the hood for INFJs and become curious to explore that.

    How to they compliment each other?

    Ne provides an abstractly broad view of reality while Ni adds depth to let both intuitive people have a mind orgy. Depending on how well the tertiaries are developed they evaluate information in much the same way. They become a teacher/student of each other and learn to grow together.

    How well do they understand each other and why?
    Depends on maturity of both. A well balanced way to take in and evaluate information.

    What are they like together raising children?



    What are some of the communication challenges they can have?
    What are the biggest frustrations between these two types?
    How can they take each other for granted?
    What happens with things “go wrong” between these two types?


    INFJs take more time to develop their thoughts than ENTPs. ENTPs should be careful not to try to 'fill in the blanks' for the INFJ while they are trying to figure something out unless asked to. ENTPs can come off as arrogant know-it-alls while INFJs can come off as self righteous martyrs pretending they are the only decent person that exists. Maturity helps here.

    Advice for couples – What recommendations do you have?
    - What things should each type do to facilitate better communication?
    - What advice do you have for each of the two types?
    - If you are an ENTP, what advice do you have for the INFJs?
    - If you are an INFJ, what advice would you have for the ENTPs?


    INFJs - The ENTP may not always think things through and just blurt out something mid-thought and sometimes it can come out unrefined and distasteful which isn't even immediately noticed by the ENTP. Most of the time I don't think ENTPs are trying to be jerks but it may seem that way. ENTPs are impersonal about heated issues , even ones you might be passionate about , and they may test your logic just for inquiry/entertainment. If they disagree with something about your opinion its purely about the opinion and not about you. It's possible for an ENTP to hold you in the highest regards of intelligence but also think your opinion is stupid. Don't personalize everything the ENTP does and make it an issue of ethics/morality. ENTPs don't always take themselves seriously and when they don't you shouldn't take them seriously either. If you suspect your ENTP is being flakey , ask the ENTP directly and they will usually answer you directly ( if they are mature) and will appreciate the straightforwardness.

    ENTPs - Be patient with your INFJ. Outwardly they may not be thinking as fast as you but they are probably thinking deeper and going to intuitive realms you can't even imagine even with all of your Ne. Don't start picking apart an INFJs opinion when they didn't even get a chance to figure it out yet. Understand that even though INFJs appear pretty laid back on the surface they are deeply serious and actually DO take themselves seriously. If you feel like you have impulsively need to tell your INFJ something that could bring out conflict go for a walk and just think about it for 15-30 mins and structure your words to be complete and comprehensible. It's great that you can make yourINFJ laugh but realize when they want to be serious and keep the sarcasm in the locker for a bit. If you hooked an INFJ , congrats , that type only selectively opens up to people. Respect that and let your INFJ know you appreciate the trust and feelings they giving you. Remember INFJs do value logical consistency like you do but they value harmony even more and learn to see the value in that.

    That's it. I believe I am ENTP but meh , who knows?

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    The main complaints I hear from the different types are are ENTPs are too flaky, extroverted, argumentative, irresponsible etc, while INFJs are too stifling, controlling, judgemental etc, or too emotional and sensitive. Typically ENTPs are 7s, often INFJs are 1s or 4s, I think Enneagram is the basis for most of the stereotype issues between the two types.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I can't look at this thread without thinking of Shai Gar... *shudder*
    Oh, okay, I see your issue.

    You've confused "narcissist hunting prey" with ENTP & INFJ.

    =p
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    I like ENTP and INFJ pairing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by great_bay View Post
    I like ENTP and INFJ pairing.
    ikr
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.
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