User Tag List

First 3456715 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 168

  1. #41
    Senior Member Studmuffin23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9
    Posts
    171

    Default

    ENTPs and INFJs can be excellent matches because they are both creative free-spirits, and tend to be somewhat eccentric. The two sympathize with each other as rebels against the norm and develop a close friendship out of this. The ENTP is especially valuable in this relationship because of their desire to please, which the oft-depressed INFJ responds well to. The INFJ's value comes from their devoted support of loved ones, which brings healing to the ENTP's (usually hidden) emotional wounds, whose creative ideas are frequently met with criticism and rejection.

    The relationship is not without it's problems. For starters, ENTPs and INFJs tend to have opposing personal values. The former values progress, efficiency, and collectivism, whereas the latter values truth-seeking, ideals, and individuality. If the gap between the couple is wide enough, this will cause no end of problems and interpersonal turmoil for them. It's the biggest and most difficult issue that the ENTP/INFJ pairing faces. Another one is the hidden but fierce competitiveness that lurks beneath the surface of these two types. Neither INFJs nor ENTPs are good losers, and when it does happen, they erupt on the inside with bitter fury, beginning to see their partner as an antagonist rather than a companion.

    I'm not really sure if there's any advice I could give to ENTP/INFJ couples, since I have never been in a relationship myself. But the universal good idea for relationships is to always put your partner before yourself; never seen a couple fail while doing that.

  2. #42
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,368

    Default

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #43
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,078

    Default

    Z Buck's ammonia and bleach analogy struck a chord with me. I don't even have enough experience to say with certainty that that is the case between the two types, but I think it it valid to say

    1) it's likely that INFJs will often share commonalities in their reactions to certain traits, even if certain traits are not inherently bad.

    2) the experiences of both types, while not accurately representing the experience of every INFJ/ENTP pair, could form a broader, more complete picture for someone considering the romantic possibilities of the pairing. Whether someone feels those impressions are fair or not, they do represent that person's experience base, which can be informative in a variety of ways.

    I guess what I'm saying is that neither type is on trial, but if multiple people experience the same difficulties with the pairing, that is useful information.
    Last edited by fidelia; 03-22-2015 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #44
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    5,619

    Default

    How many people are having Easter egg decorating parties today...huh? Huh? <-ENPs are that's who. Putting priorities in the proper order since the dawn of priorities.

    "If, of thy mortal goods, thou art bereft,
    And from thy slender store two loaves alone
    to thee are left,
    Sell one...and with the dole,
    Buy Hyacinths to feed the soul"

    - Muslihuddin Sadi,
    13th Century Persian Poet




    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Going back to this first (because I found it grating- I feel like something is being read between the lines):



    I don't really understand how it seems like I'm putting forth a double standard. Does it seem like I am implying somehow that Ne is quantitatively more oppressive/stifling to Ni than Fe is to Fi (and etc)? I know I'm not thinking it, so I don't see how I could be implying it. I feel a perpetual frustration that (some) Ne types in this forum seem oblivious to the fact that Ne can be every bit as stifling/imposing as Te or Fe- but I don't have a similar bias towards Fe.

    Case in point (I really can't tell if you're being hyperbolic to be sardonic/add humor or if you really believe Fe and Te are more stifling in some objectively quantifiable way- I assume it's the former, but I do think the latter is heavy bias problem in this forum):



    I know I sure as hell regard it as a 'true extraverted function'- that's kinda my whole thing here.

    Generally when I have a bad reaction to something said about Fe- it's either because a tendency is being wildly exaggerated (and no acknowledgment will be made to that effect when the exaggeration is pointed out), something is being attributed to Fe that doesn't seem Fe (in a way tantamount to the "Thanks Obama" meme), or because it seems like some weird motivation is being projected (like this thing about believing 'the group' should all feel the same thing....I have yet to see a Fe dom actually say 'yes, that's what's going on'). But the notion that Fe can stifle Fi? I have no objection to that. In fact, if Fi types could consistently post observable behaviors (instead of posting their projections of what those behaviors mean) that would be INCREDIBLY helpful, as a Fe person, in knowing how to stop being stifling. But it usually comes out as projection/assumptions and that's where things go sour.

    I'm not entirely sure which statements you are referring to when you mention at the top of this quote "reading between the lines..." (I'll just go ahead and share this secret: I have enough trouble just reading the lines themselves on this forum haha! No, seriously...everything you just wrote is exactly my meaning.

    I'd like to briefly mention that you won't find a whole lot of me speaking poorly about Fe on this forum beyond what I believe to be obviously exaggerated attempts at poking fun. In fact, some of what you and I have touched on here from our personal exchanges... stems from an interaction where I was defending Fe and its value (<-which I have done a good number of times...to which all the INFJs are like "Starry, from the bottom of all of our hearts - thank you for seeing Fe's worth and for speaking out on that on our behalf...even in the face of significant resistance. Or maybe that doesn't happen haha.) Anyway, I wanted to identify myself as one of the Ne doms that sees Ne as just as extroverted and oppressive as Fe. Hello everyone, hi. My name is Starry and it's been three weeks since the last time I've oppressed others with Ne..."


    The quote you referenced of mine in this regard... requesting understanding and a bit of a pardon for Ne... <-I made this same plea in your blog on behalf of Fe. What I have said many times is that the extroverted functions exist in the present...alert, alive...looking out over the horizon. They remain mindful in the moment of purpose and potential so to deal actively and immediately with direction and/or challenges in an effort to secure the best possible outcomes for the whole. And this is a drive...an instinct...as opposed to an aspect of self that the individual has worked towards developing and subsequently possess more of an awareness of and control over the specific qualities.

    This sense of moving everyone forward towards each "greatest of goods" or "best possible outcomes and our survival and well being..." this is something the native will feel compelled to do whether there is a conscious awareness of the ongoing mission or not. And since they deal with survival and well-being in the more immediate sense...they are wired to push-up against resistance. Heck, I'm thinking some persuasive person could argue that they are wired to "resort to temporary negative [behaviors and actions] if it insures future safety and goodness for as many as possible."

    Yes, there are times I experience the "holy fuck where'd you come from oppressive Fe and what do you want with me?" And it helps to appreciate the intention rather than focusing on everything you are about to lose haha no. But assuming the individual is well meaning I try to appreciate the purpose...the desired outcome. Or with my Mom...appreciating that the manipulation, imagined reality that is being forced upon you... and the self-centeredness disguised as altruism by way of unknown and miraculous forces...might not be that but something meant for good (haha god I hope you know I'm exaggerating for fun and because I don't really know what I'm saying.)


    Obviously it is easier to empathize with pushy examples of our own extroverted functions... but I sometimes think I'm seeing INFJs here acknowledge Fe as oppressive...and when dealing with a specific person suggest/conclude "they mean well." And yet these same well-meaning qualities are not easily extended to Ne. Ne dom/aux are willfully executing these horrendous actions and behaviors due to sociopathic tendencies and a desire to exploit humankind.


    The primary point I've been attempting to make is HELLS YES I want you to see Ne as an extroverted function and oppressive.
    I want it to be acknowledged as a legitimate function that has a greater purpose than merely providing fun and games or ...when in a bad way...consciously draining others. {edit: I didn't construct this paragraph properly and it's all over the place but I just can't correct it because I don't really have the time} feel a sense of empathy for why Ne exists...how it kept us alive...how sometimes survival is dependent on someone that refuses to retreat in the face of a challenge...that doesn't give up easily if the solution isn't easily had but rather pushes and assesses...pushes and assesses until (there is actually theories out there which hold that attention deficit "disorder" was an advantageous mutation that was then selected and evolved because having this kind of thinker around increased survival in significant ways. Let's make March 22..."Hug a tribal medicine man/woman that has the advantageous condition we call ADD and ADHD in today's world."


    I just think it is strange to do things like suggest Ni withdrawal is an involuntary process...while Ne's pushing and rapid problem solving is not instinctual but rather something we could control if we were better people...not lazy exploiters of the kind-hearted...etc. That's all.

    I will need to return to respond to the rest.
    Likes star tripper, Z Buck McFate liked this post

  5. #45
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    23

    Default

    As an INFJ dating an ENTP for 3+ years, I think we make a really compatible match. I can't really speak much for what an INFJ brings to the table for an ENTP, but I can say in direct contrast to my last relationship (INFP), the ENTP personality is very good for me.

    My ENTP has an unending well of enthusiasm and energy. He breaks my inertia, sometimes by coaxing, sometimes by nagging, and drags me into doing something, anything, usually what he terms "an adventure". He is very talkative, makes friends easily and unconsciously commands conversations even when he's the new person in a group of well-established friends. He is a mix of chaos (messy, disorganised, unpredictable) and responsibility (he makes me breakfast every morning, gets me out of the house on time and makes me go do the exercise that I totally need to do but can't be bothered with right now). I think when he is 'looking after' someone he is quite responsible and caring, however when it's about himself it's just not important.

    Interestingly, he claims I'm the super-confident one and the outgoing one, wheras I think the exact same thing about him. I think perhaps that is because we both have something the other lacks (external talkativeness/internal composure). He believes he's not extraverted at all, because "I like alone time too", but he can't deny that the ENTP description fits him to a T. I love just sitting and talking to him, because I find him hilarious and interesting and above all really easy to talk to, and running through ideas and possibilities and futures is fun, because we both love to explore the possibilities.

    I think we both look after each other in differing ways.. I keep him (somewhat) organised, grounded and curb some of his negative habits, he makes sure I remember to eat a proper meal and not stay up hours past my bedtime, and hands me a glass of wine and runs me a bath when I'm feeling down. He used to feel guilty about leaving me alone to go off and do activities with his friends - it took me a while to convince him I'm perfectly happy chilling by myself for a while!

    The downsides: He occasionally gets into a 'lecturing' mode, where he gets onto a topic and gets stuck on it. I might agree, or disagree, at first, but eventually I run out of things to say in response, so I go quiet, and he keeps talking, talking, talking, until I feel like I'm being beaten over the head with it. Often it's because he doesn't think I understand what he's trying to get across. I do, I either disagree (and am not going to just agree with him because he keeps making the same points at me), or I agree with him, yet he feels like I'm saying that to shut him up and don't really agree. I haven't quiet figured out a way to tactfully get across that he's doing it yet, usually it ends up with a short argument, some tears on my behalf, and then we both drop it.

    In fact, I think our conflict resolution is our weakest point. We don't argue or get upset with each other easily, and I think we're both fairly good at forgiveness and admitting we were wrong, so nobody is holding any grudges, however when things do go south, we perhaps make things worse than they would otherwise be by slightly differing communication styles.

    When he is upset, he gets angry, and I tend to be an emotional sponge, so I often feel slightly upset too. This doesn't really help calm him down. Otherwise, I just feel lost, like I don't know how to help him.

    He says he gets frustrated when people get teary and won't explain themselves, which is exactly how I react when I get upset or mad. Fortunately, for the most part when he's not upset himself, he is actually quite good at coaxing me out of my shell and not letting it be until I come out with it. And I always feel better once I manage to explain myself, however poorly.

    So in terms of what we could do better/advice - ENTP: Be patient, we're trying to get it out. Feel free to nudge, in fact, please do, just make sure you're encouraging and supportive or we'll clam up further. I'm not sure how to solve the lecturing thing, I'll get back to you on that!

  6. #46
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    834

    Default

    In relationships, people hurt each other. In the long term I don't think that's avoidable, all you can do is to aspire to not do so and trust the other person to do the same, and part of this means having the ability to bring the hurt to the table and negotiate an understanding so it doesn't happen in the future.

    I noticed that with self-described INFJs, one of two things happen:
    - "I am sorry I did that, I don't know what is wrong with me, why am I such a terrible person!"
    - "I would never do that, how dare you suggest that, the very idea is just ugly and devaluing!"

    In both of those cases, I feel there's a sense that the "self" is a static object that they feel they have no control over, that they do the best they could and that it needs to be devalued or defended as-is, which is ironic, because these very people tend to have better self discipline then anyone else I've known. I understand the desire to be liked and loved, and wanting to view yourself as someone worthy of love, and how it would hurt if a person you have grown to love and expect love from would describe you in a way that doesn't fit your ideals for yourself. But I am having trouble understanding the view of the self as a static object to began with. Don't we all remember days we understood less about how we effect our environment then we do now? Can't today be such a day?

    Unfortunately, so far trying to communicate that has the opposite effect of what I intend and makes them feel even worst about themselves, soaking further into a sense of helplessness, either getting more self flagellation or more defensively self righteous. When I want a behavior with negative consequences to change, the goal is not to degrade their self esteem, the goal is to stop the negative effect it has (On me, on others, and in the case of people I love, more often then not on themselves), and to build a trust that they understand how what it does and will try not to do it. For me, when someone I care about accuses me of ill behavior that effects them negatively, I inspect it in terms of the behavior itself - did I not understand how it would effect them? What were the circumstances? Should I avoid doing this in the future? What should I do next time? These are all in terms of the behavior, the choice I made. There were many possibilities and I chose one, now I get to learn from that better understanding how that choice effects others so I can make better choices in the future.

    I don't know if this is a type thing, a function thing, a question of maturity or just a part of being human that I have somehow managed to miss out on (Or maybe even unaware when I do it myself), but until I know how to overcome this, I don't think I could consider a serious romantic relationship with someone who thinks like that, even when there is some very clear chemistry. I don't want to fall in love with someone just to see them get hurt and question their entire self worth whenever there's an issue, I don't want to be in a relationship with dozens of unresolved issues I couldn't bring up because it would do nothing but hurt them, I certainly don't want someone I love to undermine the validity of how the consequences of their behaviors effected me because the very idea of hurting someone they care about threatens their entire sense of self worth, nor do I want a fleeting disposable relationship that is only good as long as nothing comes up.

    That's said, I reserve judgement about this on a case by case basis, preferably after I get to know someone but before getting involved romantically.

  7. #47
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seradane View Post
    As an INFJ dating an ENTP for 3+ years, I think we make a really compatible match. I can't really speak much for what an INFJ brings to the table for an ENTP, but I can say in direct contrast to my last relationship (INFP), the ENTP personality is very good for me.

    My ENTP has an unending well of enthusiasm and energy. He breaks my inertia, sometimes by coaxing, sometimes by nagging, and drags me into doing something, anything, usually what he terms "an adventure". He is very talkative, makes friends easily and unconsciously commands conversations even when he's the new person in a group of well-established friends. He is a mix of chaos (messy, disorganised, unpredictable) and responsibility (he makes me breakfast every morning, gets me out of the house on time and makes me go do the exercise that I totally need to do but can't be bothered with right now). I think when he is 'looking after' someone he is quite responsible and caring, however when it's about himself it's just not important.

    Interestingly, he claims I'm the super-confident one and the outgoing one, wheras I think the exact same thing about him. I think perhaps that is because we both have something the other lacks (external talkativeness/internal composure). He believes he's not extraverted at all, because "I like alone time too", but he can't deny that the ENTP description fits him to a T. I love just sitting and talking to him, because I find him hilarious and interesting and above all really easy to talk to, and running through ideas and possibilities and futures is fun, because we both love to explore the possibilities.

    I think we both look after each other in differing ways.. I keep him (somewhat) organised, grounded and curb some of his negative habits, he makes sure I remember to eat a proper meal and not stay up hours past my bedtime, and hands me a glass of wine and runs me a bath when I'm feeling down. He used to feel guilty about leaving me alone to go off and do activities with his friends - it took me a while to convince him I'm perfectly happy chilling by myself for a while!

    The downsides: He occasionally gets into a 'lecturing' mode, where he gets onto a topic and gets stuck on it. I might agree, or disagree, at first, but eventually I run out of things to say in response, so I go quiet, and he keeps talking, talking, talking, until I feel like I'm being beaten over the head with it. Often it's because he doesn't think I understand what he's trying to get across. I do, I either disagree (and am not going to just agree with him because he keeps making the same points at me), or I agree with him, yet he feels like I'm saying that to shut him up and don't really agree. I haven't quiet figured out a way to tactfully get across that he's doing it yet, usually it ends up with a short argument, some tears on my behalf, and then we both drop it.

    In fact, I think our conflict resolution is our weakest point. We don't argue or get upset with each other easily, and I think we're both fairly good at forgiveness and admitting we were wrong, so nobody is holding any grudges, however when things do go south, we perhaps make things worse than they would otherwise be by slightly differing communication styles.

    When he is upset, he gets angry, and I tend to be an emotional sponge, so I often feel slightly upset too. This doesn't really help calm him down. Otherwise, I just feel lost, like I don't know how to help him.

    He says he gets frustrated when people get teary and won't explain themselves, which is exactly how I react when I get upset or mad. Fortunately, for the most part when he's not upset himself, he is actually quite good at coaxing me out of my shell and not letting it be until I come out with it. And I always feel better once I manage to explain myself, however poorly.

    So in terms of what we could do better/advice - ENTP: Be patient, we're trying to get it out. Feel free to nudge, in fact, please do, just make sure you're encouraging and supportive or we'll clam up further. I'm not sure how to solve the lecturing thing, I'll get back to you on that!

    I am an ENTP, and has been living with the same INFJ for 8 years, and I could have written every words of this post above, but from the other perspective.
    With time, I learned (and loved to learn something so different) to TRUST Ni, nearly as a result of my own mind, and not just as vague impression.
    It took time to accept that these unproved insights were the RESULT of a different way of thinking and not just "impressions" like I can have someday. My ideas come very easily, and, with them, logical explanations. She has her own way. I respect that.

    About lecturing, I would be happy to give you a solution...but...i fear that...i'm doing the same. I try very hard not to, but sometimes I can't help. Sometimes, I just stop in the middle of a "lecturing" being suddenly aware what I'm doing. But it's very frustrating NOT to finish !
    Likes seradane, Florence Atley liked this post

  8. #48
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    23

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    I noticed that with self-described INFJs, one of two things happen:
    - "I am sorry I did that, I don't know what is wrong with me, why am I such a terrible person!"
    - "I would never do that, how dare you suggest that, the very idea is just ugly and devaluing!"
    I was about to object, as I think your above descriptions are misleading and exaggerated, but upon further reading I figured out you were saying that INFJs feel that when someone is unhappy with what they've done, it feels like a personal criticism, which the INFJ will respond to with either denial or will absorb the criticism fully into their self-esteem.

    I don't think it's necessarily always that extreme (I feel like I am happy to accept when I am wrong, and also feel for the most part reasonably confident in my self, opinions may however differ) but I do agree that criticisms and judgments from others do often feel like an attack on my inner self, which can be crushing. Objectively, my logical side knows it is the behaviour only they are referring to, but as the behaviour is the extension of the self, does it not make sense that it should reflect back on who you are? They say actions speak louder than words, etc etc.

    This is another reason why my ENTP is good for me - I tend to hide from criticism, would rather hang back than face being exposed, and admitting my own faults sometimes feels as painful as peeling the skin from my body. He freely admits his faults, is breathtakingly honest about darker parts of his past, and doesn't shy away from sensitive questions.

    It helps me to realise that's it's not so bad, not so scary. Sometimes admitting faults and mistakes can be freeing, and I don't have to deal with them all myself. I'm still getting there though.

    In both of those cases, I feel there's a sense that the "self" is a static object that they feel they have no control over, that they do the best they could and that it needs to be devalued or defended as-is.
    How is the self not static? We grow, sure, we mature, but the core of what we are, simply is. I do not believe people deviate much from their baseline personality, barring catastrophic events or mental illness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    I am an ENTP, and has been living with the same INFJ for 8 years, and I could have written every words of this post above, but from the other perspective.
    Glad you can relate! I'd love to hear more from the ENTP side of things.

    About lecturing, I would be happy to give you a solution...but...i fear that...i'm doing the same. I try very hard not to, but sometimes I can't help. Sometimes, I just stop in the middle of a "lecturing" being suddenly aware what I'm doing. But it's very frustrating NOT to finish !
    Yep my ENTP tells me the same! My problem is that it doesn't seem like there is a finish! :P

    We can't always rely on you guys always picking up when you're doing it, as I'm sure from your side there's sometimes not much difference between a debate and a lecture (I find the former can turn into the other without notice sometimes), so there's got to be a way to gently let you guys know that it's going down that path before it gets upsetting, ha. So you guys get to conclude your arguments before we get cranky. :P

  9. #49
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,368

    Default

    One day, all will finish.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.
    Likes Starry liked this post

  10. #50
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    834

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seradane View Post
    How is the self not static? We grow, sure, we mature, but the core of what we are, simply is. I do not believe people deviate much from their baseline personality, barring catastrophic events or mental illness.
    For the most part I disagree. Mental illness does the opposite - create areas of behavior that are nearly impossible for people to change, even when those areas are harmful to themselves and to their lives, which is why we view them as mental ill in the first place. The human mind is extremely malleable with some parts more stable then others - the more static elements tend to be a bit meta, not in the personality characteristics themselves so much as motivations and the processing of information which shapes how you grow and change in reaction to what's around you, though to some extent even your motivations can be shaped by new rewarding experiences as well as by further introspection.

    The motivation to do better by someone you care about is probably a more stable part of your core personality. The execution of that motivation depends on what you know of the other person, and when issues come up in a relationship you get to learn how to better execute it. You get to be better then you were the day before. The same is true for work environments which are largely based on skills and working knowledge, navigating social environments changed based on your understanding of social dynamics, etc. When it comes to execution, growth in your understanding translates into growth in how your personality manifests.

    Quote Originally Posted by seradane View Post
    This is another reason why my ENTP is good for me - I tend to hide from criticism, would rather hang back than face being exposed, and admitting my own faults sometimes feels as painful as peeling the skin from my body. He freely admits his faults, is breathtakingly honest about darker parts of his past, and doesn't shy away from sensitive questions.

    It helps me to realise that's it's not so bad, not so scary. Sometimes admitting faults and mistakes can be freeing, and I don't have to deal with them all myself. I'm still getting there though.
    That sounds like an extremely positive dynamic you two have going. Cheers for you two
    Likes seradane liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFJ] ENFJ and INFJ Relationships - How to Love Them
    By copperfish17 in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 137
    Last Post: 10-27-2015, 03:31 AM
  2. [MBTItm] ENTJ and INFJ Relationships
    By chegra in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 11-09-2011, 06:40 PM
  3. [MBTItm] ENTP and ENFJ relationship tips appreciated
    By Sparrow in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-01-2010, 11:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO