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  1. #31
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I appreciate your post Z Buck. What if, however, I were to take the paragraph you wrote above... leaving everything as is...the same sentiment...the same message...every period and space accounted for... But I removed Ne and Ni...and replaced them with Fe and Fi. And then I posted it in a thread OrangeAppled had been active in? What then?
    I'm pretty sure the reciprocate for this has been posted (complaints about FJs not believing others' experiences, because they hadn't experienced something comparable themselves yet), and then some. All the possible ways in which Fe overwhelms and oppresses people has been discussed in this forum ad nauseum. And Fe does have a default of dispatching very unsupportive things to say when Fi is being 'too focused on the self'- and basically treats a Fi'er as if it's an selfish choice they shouldn't be making- all from lack of not realizing Fi types can't rush through the same kind of information in the same way.

    When I ask someone, "What if I switch what you said around, and applied it conversely- what would you think then?" - it's usually a nudge for someone to reconsider what they've said, to find the inconsistencies on their own and present their idea again without the inconsistencies that clog up my ability to consider it (to get rid of some of the bathwater, so that I can find the baby). Is that why you ask? I know this could be wrong, but my assumption is that you ask in hopes that I'll catch what's 'wrong' with what I said on my own. And I'm not seeing it- I actually presented it in a way that I'd be able to 'hear' it- so if there's something you strongly disagree with (or if you sense asserting of some kind of type superiority, or that I'm positing some incorrect assumption about the other side) I'm going to need it more clearly expressed.

    I said what I said because I've noticed- irl, and in the forum (especially from people who show up to complain about specific INFJs)- that Ne dom/aux in particular truly don't seem to believe how easily INFJs get nonplussed to the point of not being able to interact anymore, how quickly all reality starts looking like some unformed Magic Eye 3D image in conflict. In conversation here (I'm looking at you, doorslam thread ), it's consistently treated as something we could 'turn off' if we decided to (and we'd 'decide to' if we were more thoughtful people who cared about others). [Also, keep in mind that paragraph you quoted was in response to the advice, "INFJ's bring up issues right away in a calm manner." I'm trying to explain that I get the consistent impression that Ne doms can have unrealistic expectations of how "right away" INFJs can be.]

    If for approximately 99% of the population...withdrawal and cessation of communication means something negative... how are we supposed to know and subsequently trust that this 1 time for this 1 person it doesn't?
    Other people's visible behavior/reactions aren't always going to mean the same thing it would mean if we were to exhibit that behavior/reaction ourselves- ...so, (in answer to the question) the same way everyone else learns this kind of thing? The same way a Fe dom need to learn what a Fi dom needs to feel respected. Through 2 parts 'live and learn' and 2 parts dialogue with people who aren't like us I guess.

    Honestly, if a Fi dom feels really stressed- I'd advice against them turning to a Fe dom who hasn't learned any of that^ to work through what's bothering them. [eta: And it isn't about trusting the Fe dom's (or whatever extraverted-counterpart dominant's) authentic desire to help or genuinely care, someone can genuinely care and genuinely want to help and still inadvertently steamroll and cause more mess than they help resolve.]

    What bad thing would happen if an INFJ communicated this: "I need time to think"...?
    It's not common sense to know this actually needs to be said to someone- any more than magically knowing when 'backing away to process' isn't common sense. Not having the need to back away when being pelted with too much inconsistent information is so foreign that it's hard to understand how 'backing away to process' isn't obvious. Finding out this even needs to be said to someone, in itself, is something that needs to be learned.

    And incidentally, I know from experience that "I need more time to think" can get met with (yet more) argument about how I shouldn't need more time to think, with a million bajillion reasons why it 'shouldn't' be a need I have. That's just what overzealous, compulsive Ne does.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #32
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Shouldn't it be easy - technically - for INFJs to express themselves? Fe Ti

    Ni might slow it down a bit.
    .

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Shouldn't it be easy - technically - for INFJs to express themselves? Fe Ti

    Ni might slow it down a bit.
    I think, that for the most part, you're right. I have no trouble expressing myself, both in writing and in oral communication, provided the listener gives me time to formulate what I want to say and gives me a chance to get a word in edge-wise. However, ensuring that my meaning is understood is an entirely different matter. Much of that depends upon the mental and emotional state of the receiver.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #34
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I said what I said because I've noticed- irl, and in the forum (especially from people who show up to complain about specific INFJs)- that Ne dom/aux in particular truly don't seem to believe how easily INFJs get nonplussed to the point of not being able to interact anymore, how quickly all reality starts looking like some unformed Magic Eye 3D image in conflict. In conversation here (I'm looking at you, doorslam thread ), it's consistently treated as something we could 'turn off' if we decided to (and we'd 'decide to' if we were more thoughtful people who cared about others).
    When I was 10 years old one of my best friends full-on convinced me she was an alien. And I carried her astonishing secret with me for two whole days until she couldn't stand it anymore and burst out laughing...ending with "I can't believe you believed that."

    When I was 12 years old my aunt full-on convinced me that my Geometry teacher was a vampire. And as an up-and-coming Inspirer...in genuine fear for my classmates' safety...I, in turn, convinced many of them Mr. C was a vampire eventually resulting in Mr. C having to use an entire class period in an effort to convince the class that he was in fact not.

    I recently wrote about unintentionally, by way of a misunderstanding, having convinced my Ne dom best friend that she had been a KFC chicken in a previous life. We were around 18 I believe when this occurred... <-And, you know, I'll just leave it at that so as not to embarrass myself with all the other completely impossible things I came to believe with merely the slightest of suggestions as I've advanced in age.

    I assure you, as an Ne dom, I am hard-wired to believe pretty much anything anyone ever tells me (key words: tells me.)


    Yes. I would very much like it if you were to give Ne the same pardon...the same understanding and allowance you might give Fe. I don't even really understand what you mean with regards to these statements:

    It seems like an unfortunate default in ENPs (and even some INPs) to start dispatching insults and accusations (to nudge INFJs into expressing things faster when dialogue isn't happening fast enough- instead of believing that it truly is a challenge for INFJs to know how to express what they sense is 'off'),
    If an Ne dom had a default setting like you suggest... in where each and every time something didn't go fast enough for them they started dispatching insults and accusations... how much of an Ne dom's lifetime might you think would be spent dispatching insults and accusations... say like maybe 98, 99% of their lifetime devoted entirely to dispatching insults or somewhere around in there...? No, I promise you...long before you and your Ne dom ever met...they had already come to terms with the fact that nothing goes as fast as their mind. And so thank fuckin god we're a little on the bendy-flexy side because we are always yielding to other people's schedules. No, "we've got this.' And heck, we usually have reputations for being rather agreeable and so I must conclude if an Ne dom is dispatching insults like you say something else is probably going on.

    I need to post this and return

  5. #35
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Re dispatching insults etc. one thought just occurred to me that I gleaned from one of the Fe Fi threads some time ago. What I found to be insulting would have been taken by a fellow Ne/Te user as completely benign or even constructive, while a statement I (as a Ni and Fe user) absolutely had not considered being hurtful was experienced that way by those in the thread with opposite functions from me. Further complicating things, both of our cries for the other to back off or approach in a different way were not as plain as we both believed them to be, even though we sincerely believed we were sling the request in plain English. I can't remember what caused the translation breakthrough, but even after it happened, I think both parties were a bit mystified as to what made the message in the later phrasing any different or more understandable. To me, it felt like the distinction between "I need some quiet" and "Quiet is needed by me" ( I'm exaggerating of course)!

    In any case, I'm wondering if this is what is going on. It takes some time to realize that what is in your own internal landscape may share commonalities and also extreme differences with others', and we often don't know which are same and which are different till conflict uncovers it. What is a very real need for one is seen as a triviality for another, because it simply doesn't Impact them in the same way, and it takes time to believe it is truly a valid need.

    Even after that, it takes time to understand how to properly express needs so that they can be heard and understood.

    Finally, it depends on the willingness of both parties to persevere.

    I'm wondering if this part of the issue here being expressed. I'm not suggesting it's the fault of either party, but perhaps some pairings lead to more of these kinds of conflicts...
    Likes LonestarCowgirl liked this post

  6. #36
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ...if you sense asserting of some kind of type superiority, or that I'm positing some incorrect assumption about the other side...
    I said what I said because I've noticed- irl, and in the forum (especially from people who show up to complain about specific INFJs)- that Ne dom/aux in particular truly don't seem to believe how easily INFJs get nonplussed to the point of not being able to interact anymore, how quickly all reality starts looking like some unformed Magic Eye 3D image in conflict.

    I apologize. I honestly didn't think it would take me this long to return (why am I apologizing for this?) Had I known I would have phrased the final words of my last post differently.

    Do I know what nonplussed means? No, because I haven't googled it yet. But as I drove from place to place today...always seemingly right next to the only drunk driver on the road at that time... I kept thinking "No fair! Why is it that only the INFJs get to be nonplussed?" "Why am I always just the dick dispatching shit? Whatever man."


    I know that Ne doesn't get the same recognition for being a true extroverted function ...the same credit and "benes" as the two kingpins...Te and Fe. But we are in fact one. We're running the same game we just don't have the highly developed skill set as the two Dons - but we're working on it.

    As it stands, we're currently sucking when it comes to the contingency plan.
    Like, we just don't have Te's ability to either come to an efficient resolution for all involved or if that doesn't work...still remain completely plussed by maybe saying something like... "You're an idiot and I'm still the most intelligent individual in the room." Likewise, when we can't clear a hurdle and remain on a forward moving basis... we can't turn to our flock...our disciples and say "guess whose reputation we will now be united in destroying for the next 500 years in a row?" like the Fe doms do.

    We don't even have the luxury of Fe in the auxiliary position. We don't have what it takes to turn to the person next to us and say "hey person that thinks and feels just like I do...listen to this story and then give me your 100% unbiased opinion of my behavior/my part. OKay see, I knew I didn't do anything wrong." <-This proxy doesn't work for us. So, thanks stupid Introverted Judgment with your purity standards. Needing to work directly with the source. Without the source and meaningful resolution we are utterly alone with...this is weird...too many possibilities which is experienced as distressing and profoundly confusing kinda like what...?


    All day I wondered if we weren't all manipulative bastards and possessed souls...if we were capable of achieving a state of nonplussedness... what would that look like for Ne?

  7. #37
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    If an Ne dom had a default setting like you suggest... in where each and every time something didn't go fast enough for them they started dispatching insults and accusations... how much of an Ne dom's lifetime might you think would be spent dispatching insults and accusations... say like maybe 98, 99% of their lifetime devoted entirely to dispatching insults or somewhere around in there...? No, I promise you...long before you and your Ne dom ever met...they had already come to terms with the fact that nothing goes as fast as their mind. And so thank fuckin god we're a little on the bendy-flexy side because we are always yielding to other people's schedules. No, "we've got this.' And heck, we usually have reputations for being rather agreeable and so I must conclude if an Ne dom is dispatching insults like you say something else is probably going on.

    You're right, thank you, I could have phrased this better. By "default" I'd meant sleepy/compulsive behavior that people slip into- there are commonalities according to type (e.g. Te: steamrolling). The issuing of insults/accusations is a "default" inasmuch as it's just a human default to do so when we're frustrated with (what seems like) ludicrous, selfish, thoughtless behavior creating too much work for us (for lack of realizing that not everyone is wired like we are). This isn't to say that all individuals of a type have one foot on a banana peel and the other over a steaming pile of the negative default behaviour though. By including the ways in which FJs do this, I was hoping to convey "I'm not saying only ENPs do this, I'm just focusing on ENP right now because that's what my post is about." But that probably wasn't enough to stop if from sounding somewhat exaggerated.

    There's also the problem of people interpretting something as an insult or an accusation- as fid said. I think we dispatch things that feel like almost inconsequential nudges (because that's what they are to us) for someone to look at their behavior, only it has the effect of a sledghammer because we're invalidating something that's actually a valid need. And what's actually frustration at something in the external world making interaction difficult for us is taken personally- it's read as forcefulness or excessive pressure to cave to the other person's conviction, when it's really clumsy frustration. (I'm very slowly realizing, I think, the extent to which this is what a lot of 'steamrolling' actually is- that it's not intended to be pressure to cave, so much as a Te dom/aux simply being frustrated that the external world isn't matching up.)

    I actually find it somewhat reassuring when other people get bent out of shape about descriptions of their types seeming exaggerated or unfair- it's validating, and (because I think this happens to Fe more than any other type) I can definitely, definitely understand. It makes me feel less like Gollum for having gotten so annoyed myself.




    I don't know what to tell you about the 'not believing' bit though- it's real. I'd like to point out my exact words were "my experience of ENPs is that they almost never believe the fastest we can express issues is the fastest we can express issues" (and I should have said "my experience of ENPs in conflict", because that would be more to the point). That is my experience. (I'd also like to point out you don't seem to believe me... )

    I think all types can run into the problem of not realizing others process information differently and that others have valid needs that we don't have ourselves. While people here tend to bitch incessantly about the ways in which Fe does this, it's actually something all types do- work on the assumption that what's easy (and a priority) for us 'is/should' be easy (and a priority) for others and berate and trivialize others' experiences/needs for not 'keeping up'.

    I'm not saying Ne doesn't believe *stuff*- in that generic regard, you're absolutely right, Ne is probably the least connected to cold hard reality of all the functions. My claim was about something very specific though and I don't think you heard it. At any rate, I'd be happy to PM you examples of you doing this to me, if you want.

    As far as that last post- you lost me. I really don't understand what your complaint is exactly at this point or how you're getting at anything you wrote there. It seems to me like you're getting bent out of shape about your own interpretation of what I said- bouncing off the surface and getting indignant at points that I never even made. I don't mean to frustrate you, but I truly don't know how to respond to it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #38
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    You're right, thank you, I could have phrased this better. By "default" I'd meant sleepy/compulsive behavior that people slip into- there are commonalities according to type (e.g. Te: steamrolling). The issuing of insults/accusations is a "default" inasmuch as it's just a human default to do so when we're frustrated with (what seems like) ludicrous, selfish, thoughtless behavior creating too much work for us (for lack of realizing that not everyone is wired like we are). This isn't to say that all individuals of a type have one foot on a banana peel and the other over a steaming pile of the negative default behaviour though. By including the ways in which FJs do this, I was hoping to convey "I'm not saying only ENPs do this, I'm just focusing on ENP right now because that's what my post is about." But that probably wasn't enough to stop if from sounding somewhat exaggerated.

    There's also the problem of people interpretting something as an insult or an accusation- as fid said. I think we dispatch things that feel like almost inconsequential nudges (because that's what they are to us) for someone to look at their behavior, only it has the effect of a sledghammer because we're invalidating something that's actually a valid need. And what's actually frustration at something in the external world making interaction difficult for us is taken personally- it's read as forcefulness or excessive pressure to cave to the other person's conviction, when it's really clumsy frustration. (I'm very slowly realizing, I think, the extent to which this is what a lot of 'steamrolling' actually is- that it's not intended to be pressure to cave, so much as a Te dom/aux simply being frustrated that the external world isn't matching up.)

    I actually find it somewhat reassuring when other people get bent out of shape about descriptions of their types seeming exaggerated or unfair- it's validating, and (because I think this happens to Fe more than any other type) I can definitely, definitely understand. It makes me feel less like Gollum for having gotten so annoyed myself.




    I don't know what to tell you about the 'not believing' bit though- it's real. I'd like to point out my exact words were "my experience of ENPs is that they almost never believe the fastest we can express issues is the fastest we can express issues" (and I should have said "my experience of ENPs in conflict", because that would be more to the point). That is my experience. (I'd also like to point out you don't seem to believe me... )

    I think all types can run into the problem of not realizing others process information differently and that others have valid needs that we don't have ourselves. While people here tend to bitch incessantly about the ways in which Fe does this, it's actually something all types do- work on the assumption that what's easy (and a priority) for us 'is/should' be easy (and a priority) for others and berate and trivialize others' experiences/needs for not 'keeping up'.

    I'm not saying Ne doesn't believe *stuff*- in that generic regard, you're absolutely right, Ne is probably the least connected to cold hard reality of all the functions. My claim was about something very specific though and I don't think you heard it. At any rate, I'd be happy to PM you examples of you doing this to me, if you want.

    As far as that last post- you lost me. I really don't understand what your complaint is exactly at this point or how you're getting at anything you wrote there. It seems to me like you're getting bent out of shape about your own interpretation of what I said- bouncing off the surface and getting indignant at points that I never even made. I don't mean to frustrate you, but I truly don't know how to respond to it.


    I think you are one of the most insightful people on the internet (that I've encountered in my lifetime.) <-And sure, I could attach an "in my opinion' to that statement...but I really don't have to because here I know with certainty that I share this sentiment with many. I also know with certainty that you are modest and if you would like me to come back and edit out this short paragraph I will. But I felt a strong need to say it. (And no, I am not at this time bent out of shape. I don't have an attachment to being liked and will often take-on the "voice" of my family, my ancestors, my culture, my heritage as a collective because I find it so unbelievably fascinating how quickly three separate groups will form out in front of me. Members that understand precisely what I'm saying and why, members that don't, and most interesting - members that will use...what is always labeled a very Fi/Te culture/cultural voice...as an opportunity for willful misunderstanding).

    I want you to know that I acknowledge each and every time you made an indication that your opinions, as they pertain to the Ne dom/aux, are to be entirely confined to the realm of your experience. <-It would be foolish though to assume that this kind of disclaimer has a "one size fits all" meaning to it. I often see it expressed when someone just wants to pass along information to others that may use it in some helpful way like "hey man, I don't know what to make of any of this but this is what happened in my experience." With you I get a different sense...and while I don't know if I'm picking up on something real or imagined... I hear something more along the lines of "I have this opinion of NPs that comes from my first-hand experience with them and while I feel fairly confident my opinion in this regard is actually fact I don't deal in absolutes and so I need to use the disclaimer." <-Again, not saying this sense is real...but this is what I seem to be getting from your entire presentation. I mean it when I say I 100% support and will stand behind any negative opinion you wish to hold with regards to my type. Once it seemed to me that the boundaries of opinion were being breached and shit was flying too close to the "fact zone"...I just showed up to say you're not interpreting things accurately. You've got it wrong in so many ways.

    Normally, just being the offensive voice of "you're not interpreting things accurately" is enough for me and my attention threshold for these kinds of things. This thing with the "ENPs not believing how long it takes for you guys to process is totally real" <-Because you've even accused me of this...leaving me nonplussed...I wish to comment on this one thing. And so I'm going to give you what I feel is the missing piece.

    While I'm constantly blown away by you guys' flashes of profound insight and genius...I humbly admit that because of my experience with my Mom, sister, ex I really struggle sometimes to comprehend the NFJ reasoning. <-And remember...this is all coming from someone that at some point or another believed in aliens, vampires, etc. and according to you has a dominant function that is most out of touch with reality. And it's true...I'm happiest when my mind is in the land of the impossible. But when I sit down to reason...I go step by step by step and I keep those steps very close together. I sometimes notice that NFJs take larger steps than I would when attempting to arrive at a logical conclusion. And when I see this occur, when I can't figure out how we went from A to K so quickly and did I miss some stuff? and then combine it with my personal experience I feel a sense of insecurity regarding what outcomes might come from it.

    Sometimes when you talk...I get the sense you imagine all INFJs in existence are very open and forthcoming about this state of being nonplussed. And if I'm not mistaken ...you are the only person that has ever explained this... thing...this thing that absolutely exists...in a meaningful way. And I've read a hell of a lot on the INFJ. Prior to you...I do remember reading one joint INTJ and INFJ description that superficially mentioned "may withdraw to process"...so I'm of course thinking... "for an hour or so just like Dad." And since you...I saw it briefly mentioned on the "INFJs and criticism" video where the dude said "And folks...be sure and give us some time to process after you criticize us."

    No Z Buck, you are literally the only person that I have ever encountered explaining this. Since you first put words to it...other INFJs here have agreed with you and were thankful for your explanations...but you are the only person I've encountered to really put words to this phenomenon. And I fuckin believe you!!! I know what you say is true...but it is absolutely not true that this is a common thing for the majority of INFJs to....even know they have let alone explain in a meaningful way to an ENP they are in some close relationship with...to which we could then start collecting data of how often ENPs subsequently accuse INFJs of lying about it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

    Hold on...

    eta:
    I just read over your comments in this thread and I'm sorry...I just don't have the heart to go on. I'm reminded of the fact I don't think anything I say here with you will matter.
    And so I will leave you to your experience.

  9. #39
    ka-POW labyrinth_perhaps's Avatar
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    ENTPs bewilder me. I feel sympathy for ENTPs. For awhile I thought I was an ENTP. I realized It's just because i'm the class clown and present myself INRL rather eccentric/emotionally detached. Also I suck in school, and usually get good grades for the immense effort I put in. But to be that damn intense without even always being socially intense, must be very difficult/rewarding to live with.

    AAAANYWAYS. I just posted in the ENFP/INTJ relationship. I believe my severely questionable theory applies with INFJs and ENTPs as well. because my sub personality theory may be stereotyping INFJS.

    ENTPs stereotypes are hard. I feel as if ENTPs are very true to type. It's either the comedian/funny professor/ or the independent politician all with the same drive. in my perspective.

    if you're interested in wondering what i'm talking about, check it out.

    I believe the basis for personality foundation, has to deal with the mental, emotional and physical self. Depending on what stage you're developing; helps attract your opposite imperfect, perfect match. Attracted by similar want, but are complete opposites.
    "I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying."
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  10. #40
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Please excuse the length, I tried to be succinct. And even though Starry is ENFP and this thread is about ENTP/INFJ pairings, I do think a lot of the issue here is Ne/Ni so I'll focus on that.

    Granted, initially what I wrote had that "every ENP does this at the drop of a hat" ring to it more than I'd intended- (as I said) I was in a relationship with one for eight years, one that I would hope not many ENTPs would be proud to have as their mascot, so my post bled a bit of the frustration I still feel (not just from him, though I suspect my threshold for it is particularly low because of that experience). It's always annoying when someone does that, it causes enough problems in conversation around this forum that I should have remembered to be more careful. (Again- this is actually validating in a way, because usually any acknowledgment at all is more than the people who sling wildly exaggerated mud at Fe or INFJs are usually willing to put forth. And it is annoying.)

    Going back to this first (because I found it grating- I feel like something is being read between the lines):

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Yes. I would very much like it if you were to give Ne the same pardon...the same understanding and allowance you might give Fe.
    I don't really understand how it seems like I'm putting forth a double standard. Does it seem like I am implying somehow that Ne is quantitatively more oppressive/stifling to Ni than Fe is to Fi (and etc)? I know I'm not thinking it, so I don't see how I could be implying it. I feel a perpetual frustration that (some) Ne types in this forum seem oblivious to the fact that Ne can be every bit as stifling/imposing as Te or Fe- but I don't have a similar bias towards Fe.

    Case in point (I really can't tell if you're being hyperbolic to be sardonic/add humor or if you really believe Fe and Te are more stifling in some objectively quantifiable way- I assume it's the former, but I do think the latter is heavy bias problem in this forum):

    I know that Ne doesn't get the same recognition for being a true extroverted function ...the same credit and "benes" as the two kingpins...Te and Fe. But we are in fact one. We're running the same game we just don't have the highly developed skill set as the two Dons - but we're working on it.
    I know I sure as hell regard it as a 'true extraverted function'- that's kinda my whole thing here.

    Generally when I have a bad reaction to something said about Fe- it's either because a tendency is being wildly exaggerated (and no acknowledgment will be made to that effect when the exaggeration is pointed out), something is being attributed to Fe that doesn't seem Fe (in a way tantamount to the "Thanks Obama" meme), or because it seems like some weird motivation is being projected (like this thing about believing 'the group' should all feel the same thing....I have yet to see a Fe dom actually say 'yes, that's what's going on'). But the notion that Fe can stifle Fi? I have no objection to that. In fact, if Fi types could consistently post observable behaviors (instead of posting their projections of what those behaviors mean) that would be INCREDIBLY helpful, as a Fe person, in knowing how to stop being stifling. But it usually comes out as projection/assumptions and that's where things go sour.

    I hear something more along the lines of "I have this opinion of NPs that comes from my first-hand experience with them and while I feel fairly confident my opinion in this regard is actually fact I don't deal in absolutes and so I need to use the disclaimer."
    This is a fair point (the conviction feeling weightier than simply 'my experience' warranted).

    There have been times when I've been surprised by amount of feedback from other INFJs on a single post, letting me know they strongly agree (be it through public response, rep or otherwise). This was one such example:



    I sound fairly confident in this regard that my opinion is not mine alone because of interactions with other INFJs confirming such. It does extend beyond 'my experience' (although in personal interactions, the problem is not having my experience believed- it's just that I also know this isn't something that happens to just me). This is not to say that every single INFJ out there would agree- this is just to say it's enough of a common INFJ issue that the comment above received a surprising amount of (and some emphatic) agreement, as well as this very grievance coming up in conversation here and there in other places too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Sometimes when you talk...I get the sense you imagine all INFJs in existence are very open and forthcoming about this state of being nonplussed.
    There's probably a lot of truth in this- out there, away from all discussion of typology and/or any psychological analysis, I don't have much idea what the average INFJ is like. I only know the ones I've become friends with personally (irl) and the ones I've met online. But I don't understand how this negates what I was trying to explain? If anything, I'd think that would further my point? Any new immediate experience is so not self-evident that it's rare for an INFJ to be able to express what seems 'wrong' (unless we're observers instead of direct participants, or the situation closely enough resembles something we've already had to do the work of sussing through so we're already familiar with it).

    There is a very peculiar and practically invisible bemusement that accumulates for INFJs. (And in saying so, btw, I'm not insinuating other types never experience bemusement or nonplus or whatnot. I'm just saying- if you look at the responses to the post below under the spoiler, there weren't any other types chiming in to say "but this applies to me too, I have this problem too!") There's a particular kind of fogginess that feels almost impossible to express, because it is so vague.

    Another post that was met with a surprising amount of agreement from other INFJs:



    Previous to this forum, I don't think I'd have been able to describe it so well- although I remember that paragraph (you have to actually follow the link to the actual post to see this) I quoted from Thomson's description of INFJ really, really hit home for me when I first read it. I don't think it's Ni alone- because INTJs don't seem to have this problem (nor do they seem to understand how baiting/distressing certain things are for us)- it seems to be something that happens primarily to people-oriented Ni. I'll kind of go so far as to say that if I don't sense this bubble of reticence/guardedness around someone who identifies as INFJ, then I can't help but suspect they're mistyped (and lady x has a great description somewhere around here of this- which I may or may not be able to find and link)- actual INFJs who can react quickly typically also come across as very irrational/batshit. Because it's not something we can 'turn off' when it gets inconvenient. Which leads me to the other thing you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I humbly admit that because of my experience with my Mom, sister, ex I really struggle sometimes to comprehend the NFJ reasoning. [...] But when I sit down to reason...I go step by step by step and I keep those steps very close together. I sometimes notice that NFJs take larger steps than I would when attempting to arrive at a logical conclusion. And when I see this occur, when I can't figure out how we went from A to K so quickly and did I miss some stuff?
    There are big leaps. Or from Pierce Presents: INFP (he lists it in the INFP description, but not his INFJ descriptions)

    ...the INFJ is problematically unaware that their intuitions are entirely subjective. An INFJ may be inspired by a droplet of water to ponder on how it represents the true nature of the cosmos, and then develop a grand vision, forgetting that their only real-world evidence for said vision is a droplet of water. INFJs have trouble realizing the subjective origin of their seemingly objective visions.

    Incoming information expands- and in my experience, the only INFJs for whom that^ is actually a problem are the ones who don't realize the information is expanding as it enters their head (and those are the ones who can act mercurially, and it's why they come across as so irrational). I submit that a great many INFJs actually are painfully aware- on some level- that this is happening, and it's why we're so slow and conflict avoidant. Because we can't 'turn it off' until the dust settles, the potential big-leap-ometer is always on. I think probably this usually happens just below the radar of our consciousness- like, I doubt most INFJs would be able to tell you why they back away when an environment or certain people feel too turbulent/unstable/unpredictable (and keep a safe distance where they can observe but not get directly caught up in it)- but on some level, on a very instinctual level, rational INFJs are all too aware of how subjective that vision is. Until we have more 'real-world evidence' to verify what we're looking at, it's practically impossible to be 'open and forthcoming' about it.

    Could we be better at clearly stating we need time (or just knowing that it's even necessary to say it)- or get better at being able to explain why the person seems incompatible, instead of simply deciding (on our own) they are incompatible? Absolutely. Am I suggesting INFJs are inherently more mindful than other types? No. I think the ratio of INFJs who are mindful about it is about the same ratio of ENPs who are mindful of how they effect others. One of the most annoying things about this forum is when someone tries to imply (repeatedly) another type is profoundly less considerate than their own type. I'm not sure how to make it clear that I have no illusion about this.

    A super unfortunate thing about all this is that in the expanding information we may get a very strong impression that someone/something is a really bad idea for us long before we can explain why. To be very clear: when I say "bad for us", I DO NOT mean the person/thing is "bad" in itself. Much in the way that ammonia (in and of itself) is not harmful, and bleach (in and of itself) is not harmful- but mixed together, they can result in something very harmful- "bad" here is a very relative term. So in that expanding information, there's can be an impression that someone/something is a very bad match for us- and while we can try to ignore that impression at first (and many of us do, so long as we can't explain it, because we're the only ones who see it), ultimately (if it's correct) that impression can become so distracting that it's impossible not to distance or block someone out. It's like, I can make the conscious effort to ignore the impulse until I can explain it- but I'll start to have a visceral reaction and it's like my body starts rejecting everything about the person. All this can go down without being able to explain it.

    And it's at this point that things like this become a serious problem (under spoiler- this member is gone, not sure if it's a mistake to use this as an example, but it is a good example so I'm using it):



    ...at best this is oafish and oblivious, but at worst it's emotionally abusive. Regardless of the intent, the effect can be emotionally abusive. I've jokingly said before that if someone were to attempt to stop ENTPs from expressing ideas, those ideas would probably physically explode out their frontal lobe Alien style. INFJs have the opposite problem- we need to be careful about how we shine a light on it (how we 'make sense' of it) or *poof* it's gone....only it isn't really gone, it's just silently snowballing back there only to resurface as a visceral (and even more confusing) revulsion. So I have to be somewhat careful about who I bounce the raw batter off of, lest I get weird funhouse mirror-style feedback that leads me in the wrong direction instead of helping me figure out what Ni is actually picking up on. (Again- this has nothing to do with intentions- someone can genuinely want to be helpful, but really only have a counterproductive effect.)

    And that^, is why comments like this (below) are so baiting:

    We don't even have the luxury of Fe in the auxiliary position. We don't have what it takes to turn to the person next to us and say "hey person that thinks and feels just like I do...listen to this story and then give me your 100% unbiased opinion of my behavior/my part. OKay see, I knew I didn't do anything wrong." <-This proxy doesn't work for us. So, thanks stupid Introverted Judgment with your purity standards. Needing to work directly with the source. Without the source and meaningful resolution we are utterly alone with...this is weird...too many possibilities which is experienced as distressing and profoundly confusing kinda like what...?
    The reciprocate of that comment: We (INFJs) don't have the luxury of Ne- to gloss over the shallow surface of all the information without any of it expanding as it comes in. <- That proxy doesn't work for us. So thanks stupid Introverted Perception for its own kind of purity standards (which are typically COMPLETELY FUCKING INVISIBLE to many Ne types.....who seem to think Introverted Perception revolves almost entirely around 'getting stuff done' and 'being productive, like cogs' and who can't seem to get enough of glorifying their own Introverted Judging function as The Source Of All Purity and Truth). Needing to take all reality and work with the entirety of the situation to get a holistic perspective (everything that person has said before, a million bajillion aspects about everything being said and about everyone involved that aren't right there in the present moment *but which shape that present moment* so it's important to be aware of it all) and not simply the flotsam and jetsum of isolated pieces of 'the source' that happen to float directly in front our eyes. Without a more holistic understanding of everything that led up to that moment, we are left with a very shortsighted assessment of the isolated fragment we are looking at.

    And at the bolded: I'm not saying this is never the case, but it sure as hell isn't always why an INFJ needs to be prudent in figuring out who can help make sense of reality. And if you accuse an INFJ who is actually more mindful than that of doing this- that's one of the best ways to land in the 'incompatible' heap. It's not punishment, it's not vindictiveness, and it's not because you weren't willing to stroke their ego- it's because you're just not the right person for the job.

    There is a conversation here about how we suss out the people we can bounce reality off of: Freaking NFJs.....How Do I Know You Mean It (it isn't started with that intention, but the discussion turns in a direction which I found helpful to describe who gets deemed 'compatible'). It's not a decision that gets made so much as an observation about who ultimately can be helpful in parsing out the impressions and who isn't. In getting to know people, either they're helpful or they're not.

    This really seems to piss a lot of people off. ( <- Understatement of the year? Someone should eventually read through this forum and write a book write a series of books start an entire branch of psychology on how much INFJs piss people off in this way.) We generally don't tell someone why they're not making the 'cut', and yes, we could get better about that (at least, with individuals we've established some connection to- it's shitty to cut off a connection without an explanation). But reciprocally, the people who get the most pissed off could get better at realizing there is a valid reason why we're careful about who we bounce reality off of. To imply that we all do it (or even that 'most' of us do it) so that we can get tailored feedback for the easiest possible existence or to feed a hungry ego is making very petty assumptions about our character- and (for those of us whom that assumption is incorrect) when someone can't give me credit for who I am, if they are going to project their own pettiness into me when my behavior doesn't make sense to them, then it is a bad idea to turn to them when I need to make sense of the vague impressions swimming around my head.

    Finally, it wouldn't feel like a typo c post if I didn't at least try: *inserts a veiled assertion that my own introverted function is truthier and/or openly assert that Ne looks and smells like my cat's butt* (....not funny/too soon?)

    [If you feel like there was an important point I glossed over, then please let me know.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari
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