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  1. #101
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    ENTP would be someone that counters my ideas constantly. Whatever it is that I am thinking the ENTP tells me in words a version of what I'm thinking. But I feel annoyed, because it's like they are lagging behind me and make so many connections about 1 word (I'm exaggerating it, but it's like a simple question, with a few words) that I said that I can't move forward because I'm the sap that sits there and listen to them babbling. I have to constantly trying to steer them in the right direction. When they are finally finished. I have to unfortunately have to inform them that they have been going on about something that I have no interest in, because my focus was on another issue. I'm already past what they have told me, meaning I'm already there and I need to move past that concept, idea. So I wonder when we get to that point I guess they feel their talk was pointless and futile and then get defensive (perhaps offensive?).

    But I haven't spent enough time with one yet to see if we could ever move past that mental block, because both are tired of the analysis that was at the time considered fruitless. It would be interesting to see if there is something at the end of the rainbow.
    That's harsh bruh. Not sure it can be fixed, I think the goal isn't a goal, but the journey.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #102
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    ENTP would be someone that counters my ideas constantly. Whatever it is that I am thinking the ENTP tells me in words a version of what I'm thinking. But I feel annoyed, because it's like they are lagging behind me and make so many connections about 1 word (I'm exaggerating it, but it's like a simple question, with a few words) that I said that I can't move forward because I'm the sap that sits there and listen to them babbling. I have to constantly trying to steer them in the right direction. When they are finally finished. I have to unfortunately have to inform them that they have been going on about something that I have no interest in, because my focus was on another issue. I'm already past what they have told me, meaning I'm already there and I need to move past that concept, idea. So I wonder when we get to that point I guess they feel their talk was pointless and futile and then get defensive (perhaps offensive?).

    But I haven't spent enough time with one yet to see if we could ever move past that mental block, because both are tired of the analysis that was at the time considered fruitless. It would be interesting to see if there is something at the end of the rainbow.
    First off and reference to the OP, you're not an INFJ or an ENTP, at least according to your description. Moving on.

    In hope of enlightening this issue you're describing:
    To us ENTP, debate is how we form ideas. It's not an attack on you. But just keep in mind you might have been thinking and considering something and in your mind you want to go to the 'end of the story'. The ENTP is still looking at the map of the USA and trying to see which roads to take and what destination to choose.

    To correctly challenge an idea we need to define terms. So when the ENTP is arguing about a specific term you need to understand that to a primary Ne person, change one word and you bring about 10 new ideas. We are very conscious of how things 'connect'. Often times a wrong term to us is like a short circuit, it 'offends' the 'flow of thought'. It's like an error in en equation. We don't accept your conclusion if the premise is not communicated coherently, using words that fit the purpose. You see the word as an approximation and put the importance on the conclusion. Because no word can express the whole idea. To us the idea is a combination of smaller 'concepts' which can be correctly described by words. We create the idea using the words as ideas we articulate together. To us if the words are wrong, the idea is wrong OR you are not giving us the 'correct information' to reach a 'correct' conclusion.

    You think =mc²! We think E?=

    In your mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have a specific overall idea/vision you want to communicate. To you you are presenting a whole package, and the fact that the ribbon on top of it is not perfectly tied is NOT the point. I've had that conversation many many times with INFJs for example.

    To an ENTP that 'ribbon' is not so. Because you look at it from the finishing line, to us you're telling us that this is a 100m sprint run and we're like "but wait a minute, you're showing me a 80m obstacle run". And we can't accept you point until your terminology fits what we see, otherwise how can we accept your conclusion if we are not assured that we mean the same thing when we use certain terms.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  3. #103
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Nashville stands for any opinion. INFJ worked out the idea and want to communicate it.
    ENTP hasn't and wants to 'form the idea'

    INFJ: So we are in Nashville now and the thing about Nashville...
    ENTP: wait. Why are we in Nashville. How did we get there?
    INFJ: you're missing the point: the thing about Nashville... (getting frustrated)
    ENTP: (asking for information to allow him/her to understand how you reached Nashville) Ok, let's backtrack here, which road did you take?
    INFJ: oh it was a highway, the T2.
    ENTP: the t2 doesn't lead to nashville (implied: so how could you reach Nashville then. Are you sure you are in Nashville?)
    INFJ: BUT I AM IN NASHVILLE. IT DOESN'T MATTER
    ENTP: Ok if you are in Nashville then which road did you take? (ie: I don't get how you reached that idea with what seems like a wrong premise)
    INFJ: *strangles entp*
    ENTP: Why can't you just answer so we can start off this conversation from an equal standpoint?
    INFJ: Why can't you let me start the conversation and obsess about details
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
    Likes chubber, Cloudpatrol liked this post

  4. #104
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    My mom seems particularly attracted to them; they've always blow up in her face.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  5. #105
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Nashville stands for any opinion. INFJ worked out the idea and want to communicate it.
    ENTP hasn't and wants to 'form the idea'

    INFJ: So we are in Nashville now and the thing about Nashville...
    ENTP: wait. Why are we in Nashville. How did we get there?
    INFJ: you're missing the point: the thing about Nashville... (getting frustrated)
    ENTP: (asking for information to allow him/her to understand how you reached Nashville) Ok, let's backtrack here, which road did you take?
    INFJ: oh it was a highway, the T2.
    ENTP: the t2 doesn't lead to nashville (implied: so how could you reach Nashville then. Are you sure you are in Nashville?)
    INFJ: BUT I AM IN NASHVILLE. IT DOESN'T MATTER
    ENTP: Ok if you are in Nashville then which road did you take? (ie: I don't get how you reached that idea with what seems like a wrong premise)
    INFJ: *strangles entp*
    ENTP: Why can't you just answer so we can start off this conversation from an equal standpoint?
    INFJ: Why can't you let me start the conversation and obsess about details
    I would've said just let me explain and I'll tell you, my fault is overexplaining things when people just want a short and sweet answer lol.

  6. #106
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    I would've said just let me explain and I'll tell you, my fault is overexplaining things when people just want a short and sweet answer lol.
    Well it depends I guess.
    If you say something with little moving parts then the conversation can start on equal grounds.
    Lets say "the earth is round" --> noone will question what you mean by earth. I will automatically correct you by saying it's oval though. but close enough right.
    Then we can go on and discuss about roundness and why and such and the concept of beauty and the human brain. Now keep in mind that I will tell myself the exactsame thing if i say or think "the earth is round'. I'm not saying that because it's you.

    If you say 'Canines like people' though. Even though you mean DOGS and not every single dogs on earth. My mind will automatically come up with 5 counter arguments. Starting with: wolves are canines. Wolves don't particularily 'like humans'. As I will be then standing on 'shaky grounds' my mind will automatically start questioning the terms 'like' and even 'humans'.

    Now if your point was to talk about human-dog common fondness we're good. Because we're going to be discussing that for a bit.
    If your point was to talk about allowing pets in federal buildings and the dog thing was just an intro, you'll get frustrated.

    Overall however I think INFJ/ENTP interactions are beneficial to both parties. The infj learns to be more "Ti' and break down their arguments a bit more for general NT consumption as well as to better understand their own minds. The ENTP will remember that feeling something in an argument can be a strength and to be 'softer' in their communications as to federate people around them.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #107
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well it depends I guess.
    If you say something with little moving parts then the conversation can start on equal grounds.
    Lets say "the earth is round" --> noone will question what you mean by earth. I will automatically correct you by saying it's oval though. but close enough right.
    Then we can go on and discuss about roundness and why and such and the concept of beauty and the human brain. Now keep in mind that I will tell myself the exactsame thing if i say or think "the earth is round'. I'm not saying that because it's you.

    If you say 'Canines like people' though. Even though you mean DOGS and not every single dogs on earth. My mind will automatically come up with 5 counter arguments. Starting with: wolves are canines. Wolves don't particularily 'like humans'. As I will be then standing on 'shaky grounds' my mind will automatically start questioning the terms 'like' and even 'humans'.

    Now if your point was to talk about human-dog common fondness we're good. Because we're going to be discussing that for a bit.
    If your point was to talk about allowing pets in federal buildings and the dog thing was just an intro, you'll get frustrated.

    Overall however I think INFJ/ENTP interactions are beneficial to both parties. The infj learns to be more "Ti' and break down their arguments a bit more for general NT consumption. The ENTP will remember that he/she does have a heart and feeling something in an argument is not a flaw.

    I could see how that's frustrating but actually just as entertaining as well. I'd learn so much from you.

  8. #108
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    I could see how that's frustrating but actually just as entertaining as well. I'd learn so much from you.
    It depends.
    Now imagine we're talking about a topic you hold close to your heart and I'm 'pedantically' defining terms.
    Both mean well in general. But the more the entp focuses on 'please define terms' the less empathetic they get (aka: they're in logical problem solving mod) and the more the INFJ's patience is taxed. Meanwhile the ENTP still didn't get an answer and can't move on with the conversation (ie: I need conclusion a to draw conclusion b)

    I think that's like 90% of INFJ-ENTP conflicts
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #109
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    It depends.
    Now imagine we're talking about a topic you hold close to your heart and I'm 'pedantically' defining terms.
    Both mean well in general. But the more the entp focuses on 'please define terms' the less empathetic they get (aka: they're in logical problem solving mod) and the more the INFJ's patience is taxed.

    I think that's like 90% of INFJ-ENTP conflicts
    I agree I am not the best at language. o_o BUT is the definition narrow enough?

  10. #110
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    I agree I am not the best at language. o_o BUT is the definition narrow enough?
    That's because Ni is about 'big units'. A big complex atomic idea that can't be expressed properly with few words. The challenge is to define thousands of words in 10.

    An ENTP considers that 'one idea' is a combination of lots of small ideas that live and shift and have many possible equivalents. The challenge is to rule out as many 'possible view points' as possible as to arrive at some kind of coherent argument.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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