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  1. #21
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    Well I appreciate your candor and idealism. Nice to know that people-stuff is hard for more than just me, I don't feel so bad now since friends are hard to come by even for enfp's.
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  2. #22
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    I think what shits me so much about enfp's is the capacity for constant lying in an effort to grease the social wheels. I have such a hard time respecting anyone who lies to me in this manner. I don't trust it nor the person it comes from. It's just a tactic....I'll tell you what you want to hear so you will give me what I want. It's totally legit because it's the 'smart' thing to do in this situation.

    Not in my book. It's theft of the other person's confidence because you presented a false aspect in order to gain access to something they would not have given you, had your intentions been clear. Which naturally leads to the suspicion that you will now betray them since you had less than honest intentions in gaining it.
    Interesting....I experience this far, far more with FJs. I don't find ENFPs so insincere, generally speaking.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Interesting....I experience this far, far more with FJs. I don't find ENFPs so insincere, generally speaking.
    I was in a training session once with a bunch of peeps and we did MBTI training stuff as part of the course. In that course there were 2 ISFJs, a female and male, and a male ESFJ. I found the Js came across quite bluntly but I'm accustomed to that. Can't say as I found any of those people to be particularly disingenuous. Abrasive at times? Definately but not necessarily manipulative.

    There is something about the open-ended P which sets me off I think. The saying of things which could be interpreted either way, it rankles me a bit. Almost like it's a double blind study to see which of those two options I'm going to take and I invariably think I'll pick the wrong one. It's a trap! That coupled with the natural enfp curiosity about people, something I see as a tendency to want to tinker with emotional states and button pressing.

    Whereas a J is really obvious. They just straight up state what's on their mind. They've decided, it's not up for debate, a what is statement is what you get from them. I appreciate that about people and I think I trust it more. Subconsciously I think it says to me.....this is a person who has already decided and they won't change their mind just because of the flow of sentiment that's going to ensue. They're not waiting to see where the tide is turning and jump on the winning side. However wrong that subsconscious thought is, it's what's going on with me.
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  4. #24
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chthonic View Post
    I was in a training session once with a bunch of peeps and we did MBTI training stuff as part of the course. In that course there were 2 ISFJs, a female and male, and a male ESFJ. I found the Js came across quite bluntly but I'm accustomed to that. Can't say as I found any of those people to be particularly disingenuous. Abrasive at times? Definately but not necessarily manipulative.

    There is something about the open-ended P which sets me off I think. The saying of things which could be interpreted either way, it rankles me a bit. Almost like it's a double blind study to see which of those two options I'm going to take and I invariably think I'll pick the wrong one. It's a trap! That coupled with the natural enfp curiosity about people, something I see as a tendency to want to tinker with emotional states and button pressing.

    Whereas a J is really obvious. They just straight up state what's on their mind. They've decided, it's not up for debate, a what is statement is what you get from them. I appreciate that about people and I think I trust it more. Subconsciously I think it says to me.....this is a person who has already decided and they won't change their mind just because of the flow of sentiment that's going to ensue. They're not waiting to see where the tide is turning and jump on the winning side. However wrong that subsconscious thought is, it's what's going on with me.
    I think it depends on the individual for what counts as insincere. I've had people claim me to be very insincere, and people claim me to be one of the most sincere person they've ever met. Why the difference? What they categorize as sincere and insincere. I operate heavily off the external world, and for a type such as an INFP, that can seem very wrong and very alien to them. They operate off the internal and that is why the view themselves as very sincere and genuine because it comes from the self and is "pure" in effect. Where as if you operate off the external there is a lot of filters, loops, checks, etc that, from the prospective of someone who doesn't operate that way, appears insincere, hollow, or wrong.

    I consider myself a very sincere person. The thing is though the way I am and appear changes a lot depending on where I am at. That doesn't make me any less sincere, it's just environmental dependent; whatever I output is going to be what I regard as normal for the conditions. But to many, the idea of giving different outputs depending on the environment violates the very definition of sincere.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think it depends on the individual for what counts as insincere.

    They operate off the internal and that is why the view themselves as very sincere and genuine because it comes from the self and is "pure" in effect. Where as if you operate off the external there is a lot of filters, loops, checks, etc that, from the prospective of someone who doesn't operate that way, appears insincere, hollow, or wrong.

    But to many, the idea of giving different outputs depending on the environment violates the very definition of sincere.
    Oh...so many new thoughts here. Thanks for that. I had never considered it this way. Goes off to check some stuff.....
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  6. #26
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The INTJ would likely spike the ENFP at some point which would invoke the rage of the ENFP which would then offend the INTJ and make them get all defensive.
    I have an INTJ brother, and it goes just like this. He has so many intensely private schemes, that it's not possible to live side by side without getting spiked or tripped up. I try to be honest and open and keep things positive, but it never works out!

    We went through a period of a decade or two, when we got along well. We could discuss things at length, and play games, and get along (mostly). But ultimately, my need for a positive upbeat atmosphere was not compatible with his need for studied, private, often sour judgements.

    I am surprised that a lot of sites recommend the ENFP - INTJ mix. I don't see it.
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  7. #27
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    I have an INTJ brother, and it goes just like this. He has so many intensely private schemes, that it's not possible to live side by side without getting spiked or tripped up. I try to be honest and open and keep things positive, but it never works out!

    We went through a period of a decade or two, when we got along well. We could discuss things at length, and play games, and get along (mostly). But ultimately, my need for a positive upbeat atmosphere was not compatible with his need for studied, private, often sour judgements.

    I am surprised that a lot of sites recommend the ENFP - INTJ mix. I don't see it.
    I can only surmise that once the extremities of the personalities have been worn down by the world that the differences in that mix make for an entertaining life. My ENFP and INTJ friends have hearty debates and seem to get on well to a certain degree. Both know that the other comes from an entirely different standpoint and each seems to value the others thoughts regardless of whether they agree with them. It's certainly not boring to observe for me
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  8. #28
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I can only surmise that once the extremities of the personalities have been worn down by the world that the differences in that mix make for an entertaining life.
    Our debates and discussions were - as you say - entertaining and respectfully two-sided. Same with other INTJs I've known.

    But with my brother, his tendency to lock himself away, and to treat people badly, thinking himself very superior, and to indulge in long-term selfish schemes - has - in my view - *given* him depression. He has suffered from clinical depression for a long time now.

    When, occasionally, I treat someone harshly, and I feel a wave of depression come down over my eyes, it's a rare thing; but I know what it feels like. And I think that's what he has done to himself, so frequently, and with so much self-justification, that it has become permanent. So he is in his own death spiral, a consequence of his INTJ'ness, and now he lives alone with his victim mentality. When I visit or stay a while, he is welcoming. But after a while we get the death spiral, because I am in his space, accidentally upsetting his secret schemes and arrangements. So, uuhhh. I don't visit much, and nor does anyone else.

    The other thing that happens now, is that when I try to engage him in positive conversation, he tries to damp down everything to his depressed level. If I make some wild exclamation, he will react with a raging nastiness because he hates that positivity. For him, the world is sh*t and he *knows* he is right, and cleverer, and I am an idiot, and .... *sigh*!
    Status: was , then , now
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  9. #29
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    Our debates and discussions were - as you say - entertaining and respectfully two-sided. Same with other INTJs I've known.

    But with my brother, his tendency to lock himself away, and to treat people badly, thinking himself very superior, and to indulge in long-term selfish schemes - has - in my view - *given* him depression. He has suffered from clinical depression for a long time now.

    When, occasionally, I treat someone harshly, and I feel a wave of depression come down over my eyes, it's a rare thing; but I know what it feels like. And I think that's what he has done to himself, so frequently, and with so much self-justification, that it has become permanent. So he is in his own death spiral, a consequence of his INTJ'ness, and now he lives alone with his victim mentality. When I visit or stay a while, he is welcoming. But after a while we get the death spiral, because I am in his space, accidentally upsetting his secret schemes and arrangements. So, uuhhh. I don't visit much, and nor does anyone else.

    The other thing that happens now, is that when I try to engage him in positive conversation, he tries to damp down everything to his depressed level. If I make some wild exclamation, he will react with a raging nastiness because he hates that positivity. For him, the world is sh*t and he *knows* he is right, and cleverer, and I am an idiot, and .... *sigh*!
    Sounds like a coping mechanism gone wrong to my amateur ears. Sounds like he started out by shutting out the world because it messed with his conceptions and now he can't let it back in again.

    Personally I think that every NT needs an NF close by just to feel like part of the human race some days. A shame it didn't work out for your brother that way.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  10. #30
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Yeah, could be. I'm his closest brother and I don't know. Our mother doesn't know. No one knows, because he keeps it all locked up.

    I suspect it is related to the NT ethic of stripping everything down its bare minimum, to reach the truths. His truths are often compelling. But he has stripped away the need to be nice to people he doesn't care for, the need for people at all(?), the need for this and that. What remains is a life hardly worth living, and nothing to satisfy some of the most basic social instincts (the ones which everyone has).

    I wonder if living in a hidden lair near the North Pole would suit him.
    Status: was , then , now
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