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[so] Does typology really appeal to so many so-lasts?

Neokortex

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I think typically so-lasts are either unaware of any of it, or actually really don't care about sticking out.

I second that.

so by looking deeper into human interaction, i'm seeking to find the nature of ourselves outside of cultural/societal/regional/etc. influence.

so to me, the rules or feedback my environment gives me for how different people relate to one another seems narrow or unreliable. also, it doesn't work for me. so i'm looking for other ways to understand it. because i really love people and connection, but i also tend to be socially brutish.

I second that. How does that brutishness look like? Could you provide an example? Btw your avatar is very, very idealistic. Not brutish at all :D ;)

Yes, humanity is most fascinating. It's our greed that's made us rise above the animals. And yet, it's our greed that's also caused the vast majority of problems. We're all caught up in our own agenda.

And that's exactly the tragedy. The way I see people, social types especially will use Enneagram to cover-up for that greediness. To act as if they don't have an agenda, they're not extroverted enough to have vested interests, that there's no way for them to be complicitous in all the bs that's been going on. Well of course I'm part of it and ofc I'm playing along. If I didn't I'd be in the madhouse. But since I enjoy watching porn and think I'll be less likely to get a girlfriend in and after psychiatric confinement then I play along. Deviants are not liked by a society that's already deviant and unhealthy.
 

thoughtlost

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I agree that social firsts are pretty intellectual. They can view/analyze systems such as typology theory in a "detached" way and this is especially the case if enneagram 5 is prominent in them. They want to have an understanding of how things (in this case, humans) work in the world like cogs in a machine.

A person who is sexual first and interested in this system might not be interested it from such a "detached" standpoint. Instead, an interest in typology systems may stem from a desire to "color" their world emotionally, so it doesn't look as dull. You get to explore the tumultuous depths of the human psyche using the enneagram.

Both of them will look to have the same interest in such systems when it comes to understanding people, but the internal motivation for such an interest will be different.

I'll have to think harder for those who are self-preservation first. Hopefully someone else can chime in on this one.
 

Neokortex

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I agree that social firsts are pretty intellectual. They can view/analyze systems such as typology theory in a "detached" way and this is especially the case if enneagram 5 is prominent in them. They want to have an understanding of how things (in this case, humans) work in the world like cogs in a machine.

A person who is sexual first and interested in this system might not be interested it from such a "detached" standpoint. Instead, an interest in typology systems may stem from a desire to "color" their world emotionally, so it doesn't look as dull. You get to explore the tumultuous depths of the human psyche using the enneagram.

Both of them will look to have the same interest in such systems when it comes to understanding people, but the internal motivation for such an interest will be different.

I'll have to think harder for those who are self-preservation first. Hopefully someone else can chime in on this one.

I don't think there's any correlation btw being intellectual and social first. Socials are cursory in a sense that they want to see the big social landscape, new trends, gossips about some stars, etc. Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx are particularists, they rather investigate one thing more deeply than socials would but fail to connect it to broader societal tendencies. Whereas social can see a murky picture of what people say about certain other people and (imagined) communities but they won't get beyond stereotypes.
 

thoughtlost

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I don't think there's any correlation btw being intellectual and social first. Socials are cursory in a sense that they want to see the big social landscape, new trends, gossips about some stars, etc. Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx are particularists, they rather investigate one thing more deeply than socials would but fail to connect it to broader societal tendencies. Whereas social can see a murky picture of what people say about certain other people and (imagined) communities but they won't get beyond stereotypes.

You are right, social dominants won't really go beyond stereotypes. For some social dominants, social norms really matter. The sexual and self-preservation won't have focus on that ...although they'll be aware of it to some degree.

Any one can be intellectual, but I meant that the variants can be intellectual in different ways. Social dominants have a more "detached" way of being intellectual. I feel like sexual dominants are more likely to be innately "artistic" with their understanding of typology. Yeah. I guess that is what I meant.
 

Neokortex

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You are right, social dominants won't really go beyond stereotypes. For some social dominants, social norms really matter. The sexual and self-preservation won't have focus on that ...although they'll be aware of it to some degree.

Any one can be intellectual, but I meant that the variants can be intellectual in different ways. Social dominants have a more "detached" way of being intellectual. I feel like sexual dominants are more likely to be innately "artistic" with their understanding of typology. Yeah. I guess that is what I meant.

"Detached" could mean that responsibility for knowledge is shared. You won't latch onto it because you have an awareness that others are also working on that topic. It's not your sole responsibility to figure it out yourself like some crazy scientist locked away in his room waiting on the "heureka!" to arrive. "Detached" could mean sarcasm over current news of politics. Irony over MBTi fandom. Amusement over the pervasive addictiveness of these theories while at the same time typing some big stars, prominent public figures oneself. Relying more on what some self-professed knowers assert strongly about the theory, come up with theory than oneself coming up with ideas... only to be "detached" again if another authoritative-seeming figure rebuffs the previous' ideas.
 
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OrangeAppled

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Or, the alternative question: How do so-lasts view typology?

I notice a lot of people on this forum (and Personality Cafe) are sp/sx or sx/sp. It's something that I find strange, mainly because typology deals with a very human issue. In many ways, both Jung/Socionics and the Enneagram can be viewed as matrices that box humans into a grid of relative behaviours.

My understanding of the social instinct is as follows:

It's ultimately a desire to identify within societies or create them. I feel like socials are the intellectuals among the Enneagram, being generally more "sophisticated" in their interests. They are not necessarily the deepest thinkers, but I imagine fields such as comedy and debating are filled largely with social firsts. Possibly a large number of documentaries are made by social-firsts as well. Most university/college societies are headed by social-firsts.

I suppose that a sexual creative (secondary instinct) is typically going to be more idealistic and emotionally-charged than a self-preservation creative, which is focused more on order. I imagine that Keirsey's Guardian Temperament was a loose interpretation of the so/sp stacking.

In general though, I think there's a strong element of duty within all forms of the social instinct. It's the recognition that we're not alone, and we desire to create social structures. I imagine most advocates of art within society are so/sx: at least as far as using it to enrich a society is concerned. If the sexual instinct focuses on creating fulfilment, I imagine that when it's second to social, much of its energy is used to create a more fulfilling, perfect society. It's a de-valuing of the focus on practicality that is self-preservation.



I quite agree with this point and think it is under-emphasized. Generally speaking, I'd say so types are most likely to have an intellectual streak and sx types the least likely. If this was pointed out more, then it might affect how people choose to self-type.

I think certain enneatypes display the social instinct in ways that don't look obvious (ie enneagram 4 is a great example of this...the person is likely to still have a loner identity and excess focus on a romantic saviour figure, which may make them think they are social last). On top of this, we have an excess of INxx types here, and even if social, being INxx types may make it hard to identify it in themselves.

It's also possible that social enneatypes are more drawn to online discussions with a wider focus. Typology is so narrow and so focused on personal identity. Certainly it can be used as a system to define social groups (which is what Keirsey-ian temperaments seem to do, and he is less popular around these parts), but most who are drawn to typology forums seem to be more on a search for self.


---

Personally, I have considered NOT being social last for that reason, but generally I go with "best fit" and sp/sx consistently is my best fit. Having the social instinct as a blindspot and something I largely avoided until it interfered with other areas of life explained a lot for me.

When the social instinct is last, to me it is similar to the inferior function in MBTI....it affects you as much if not more than the secondary instinct/function. It's a blindspot or opposing force in your psychology that often causes a lot of problems, much as the excessive focus on the first instinct throws you off too.
 

Blacksheep2017

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It's a strange thing. I don't connect well in social environments, despite identifying as social first. It doesn't change the fact that most of the things on my mind are society-related. I've been obsessed with the U.S. Elections; the unfairness of being stuck with two great villains and a frustration of people picking on Trump, despite Hillary being (at best) barely any better. I've thought about the problems in this world: I've dreamt of creating a new society, I've thought about the endless problems a society can create. I've wanted to create my own fictional world, and recognizing how to really make it a great place, the society must be coherent. I haven't written the stories yet, because right now I don't have a good model in my head of how my own world works. Oh, and I'm really fascinated by the history of my own country and how the many towns and cities that make up England formed. All related to the social instinct, in my mind. I've tried to run a protest because the bus system in my University is run by a godawful company.

Yes, humanity is most fascinating. It's our greed that's made us rise above the animals. And yet, it's our greed that's also caused the vast majority of problems. We're all caught up in our own agenda.

This.
I feel ya.
:hifive:
 

Kasper

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I notice a lot of people on this forum (and Personality Cafe) are sp/sx or sx/sp.

OP, this is part of why there are less identified So doms on typology forums;

Socials are cursory in a sense that they want to see the big social landscape, new trends, gossips about some stars, etc. Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx are particularists, they rather investigate one thing more deeply than socials would but fail to connect it to broader societal tendencies. Whereas social can see a murky picture of what people say about certain other people and (imagined) communities but they won't get beyond stereotypes.

That's not So. People misunderstand what a So dom is, they mix it with being sociable and see negative stereotypes which makes it really easy to find unrelatable. Words often thrown about are 'gossip', 'shallow', 'social activist', or 'networkers' and none of them are right. So doms would not relate to so many descriptions thrown about, to confuse matters more, some of the people throwing the stereotypes around claiming to be So-last will turn out to be So doms (not directed at you specifically, Neo).

A second reason is people also frequently misunderstand what Sx dom is and over-idealise it.

So dom is about a focus on how one is relating to a group, a lot of So types tend to be introverted so they can do that observing away from the group however it's a keen focus on the relationship and where you are with the group.

As a So dom I dislike gossip, don't keep up with trends, have a craving for depth of conversation and understanding, can be slow to observe changes in others, and am generally a withdrawn observer in social environments, this is despite being a So dom who is also an Extrovert. What I am automatically prone to is seeking understanding how I relate to a group and where I fit within it, or rather, do not. I do not claim that personal perception is accurate, for the most part it is prone to be negative, it's part of my preoccupation of being a So 9.

Which is the other thing to keep in mind, So doms can be anti-social or a-social, particularly if unhealthy, partly because of their preoccupation on how they do/do not fit within groups.

As always, I agree with cascadeco, especially with this;

imo much of the typical So-descriptive things you find on the internet tend to describe 1)extroverts 2)e3 or e1 enneagram especially (ie those who tend to 'network', belong to organizations, value community stuff, and so on)

As for the intellectual aspect, the instincts can be divided into the most intellectual, the most action orientated and the most emotional for each E-type, it's not consistently So although some E-types are.
 

Neokortex

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That's not So. People misunderstand what a So dom is, they mix it with being sociable and see negative stereotypes which makes it really easy to find unrelatable. Words often thrown about are 'gossip', 'shallow', 'social activist', or 'networkers' and none of them are right. So doms would not relate to so many descriptions thrown about, to confuse matters more, some of the people throwing the stereotypes around claiming to be So-last will turn out to be So doms (not directed at you specifically, Neo).

:DDD You're actually right. Think about it. Who in their right mind would consent to being shallow? A gossiper? A social climber? IMO, this is where the meanings of words gets shifted. People look into the mirror and explain away those extra 20 pounds. It just can't be me... And they're right bc on the flip-side there're positives about being a social. However, language is a slippery thing. When you wanna emphasize the positive, that's when lg becomes political.
A second reason is people also frequently misunderstand what Sx dom is and over-idealise it.

So dom is about a focus on how one is relating to a group, a lot of So types tend to be introverted so they can do that observing away from the group however it's a keen focus on the relationship and where you are with the group.

Agreed.
As a So dom I dislike gossip, don't keep up with trends, have a craving for depth of conversation and understanding, can be slow to observe changes in others, and am generally a withdrawn observer in social environments, this is despite being a So dom who is also an Extrovert. What I am automatically prone to is seeking understanding how I relate to a group and where I fit within it, or rather, do not. I do not claim that personal perception is accurate, for the most part it is prone to be negative, it's part of my preoccupation of being a So 9.

As I said, language is a slippery thing. There are so many ways to keep up with the world. I do it on the level of aesthetics (E4)... I'm acutely aware of trends in clothing, accessories, new/local slang, even though on the level of action (E1) I don't follow. Enneagram is best understood by the ones who can extrapolate. Gossip does not always mean trivia; trends don't always mean my Uncle Joe's hipster beard; depth can't really exist without the shallow; high culture feeds from low culture, people are withdrawn bc they have smartphones, etc.

But if you emphasize that you're an So/Sx 9, then your Sx creative and 9ness gives meaning to: craving depth in conversation - as in sx second looking for intimacy; not keeping up w/ trends - as in so/sx wanting to be on the forefront of culture w/ an assertiveness that overrides previous trends (they define the trends); being slow in observing changes and being withdrawn in social environments - as in the 9's tranquility and the withdrawing side of its ambiverted nature (+, who knows you have a 5 or 4).

Which is the other thing to keep in mind, So doms can be anti-social or a-social, particularly if unhealthy, partly because of their preoccupation on how they do/do not fit within groups.

So-dom... depends on the Enneagram and instinct type. So/Sxs are interesting, though, because they also have a rebellious streak; they try to channel it into the social. Since their So-domness is an excess in their personality, they shun it. They often mistype themselves as Sx/Sps. I, as an Sx/Sp, have a core Social 4. I also shun my social 4, although to such an extent that I'm not good anymore with making compromises with a group about my "revolutionary" ideas of change. Hence we butt heads all the time that ends up me being kicked out. So/Sxs are better with this because like other socials, they want to build structures, work together. Sx/Sps are like unhealthy socials that had gone anti-social. We want to integrate back but on our terms, without compromise.

Yeah, this was addressed to you, Kasper. I know it's rushed, I don't know you at all, but your tirade made me want to do my own tirade... and apologize later :DDD
 

Kasper

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:DDD You're actually right. Think about it. Who in their right mind would consent to being shallow? A gossiper? A social climber? IMO, this is where the meanings of words gets shifted. People look into the mirror and explain away those extra 20 pounds. It just can't be me... And they're right bc on the flip-side there're positives about being a social. However, language is a slippery thing. When you wanna emphasize the positive, that's when lg becomes political.

Fair point on who would want to associate with it, however appearing to be negative traits isn't my quarrel. The Enneagram system is negative. What would be the point of a system that can help people grow if it isn't going to highlight all the problematic issues you need to address, as cliche as it is; there is no gain without pain here. If someone encompasses those traits, then denying it to themselves because they are only interested in the positives shows they should maybe stick to horoscopes or other such feel-good-fluff.

My issue with those words isn't one of meaning; it's that they are words bandied when non-So identified types explain their understanding of So, these are not words So types take on to explain their shortcomings or negatives.

So one of two things are happening here;

1. The people who identify as So are not aware, do not recognise their behaviours and motivations, or
2. Those kinds of descriptions are coming from an uneducated or unhelpful perspective.

I'm not suggesting using any such terms would be universally wrong, in fact, the term social climber is a perfect choice when looking at So 3s. However, it would be a wrong description with other types and my issue with there is that non-3 So doms would legitimately not identify with the description and then expect they are some combination of Sx and Sp without delving deeper into understanding So.

I believe this is a cause of the disproportionate Sp and Sx typings on forums like this. Until that aspect is addressed, I don't believe we can know if there are less So's on forums.


As I said, language is a slippery thing. There are so many ways to keep up with the world. I do it on the level of aesthetics (E4)... I'm acutely aware of trends in clothing, accessories, new/local slang, even though on the level of action (E1) I don't follow. Enneagram is best understood by the ones who can extrapolate. Gossip does not always mean trivia; trends don't always mean my Uncle Joe's hipster beard; depth can't really exist without the shallow; high culture feeds from low culture, people are withdrawn bc they have smartphones, etc.

Absolutely. My preference, however, is to identify/examine the root cause, if you focus on that, then the behaviours have meaning without needing to provide justifiers. The problem with instincts is without the context of the E-type that leaves very short and barely relatable descriptions.

And I sincerely hope there was no negative undertone to your comment just there. The popular resurgence of beards are the gift from hipsters, despite all their mason glass holding cold-pressed boutique beer drinking wakstering that comes with it, a most precious gift.


But if you emphasize that you're an So/Sx 9, then your Sx creative and 9ness gives meaning to: craving depth in conversation - as in sx second looking for intimacy; not keeping up w/ trends - as in so/sx wanting to be on the forefront of culture w/ an assertiveness that overrides previous trends (they define the trends); being slow in observing changes and being withdrawn in social environments - as in the 9's tranquility and the withdrawing side of its ambiverted nature (+, who knows you have a 5 or 4).

Sure, and that level of dissection provides individualised understanding, my being a withdrawn type adds a relevant element to how I interact in a social space, a connection to 4 like you guessed does as well, and so on. That kind of individualisation is relevant, however when looking at the topic of why are there so few So doms on forums, and in considering my answer that there is widespread misunderstanding causing mistyping, then the generalist answers are part of the issue, it needs to be able to be relatable to So doms who are unaware of the nuances of how their type applies. That said, I stongly believe that instincts should be looked at after one has their E-type.


Yeah, this was addressed to you, Kasper. I know it's rushed, I don't know you at all, but your tirade made me want to do my own tirade... and apologize later :DDD

Heh, never needed, as a 9 I mean no offense, and as an ENTP I take none :D

If it sounds otherwise, it's only because I enjoy the topic. My So is the cause of so much irritation for me!
 
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