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  1. #1
    Senior Member Psyclepath's Avatar
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    Default My ramblings on instincts - I'd like to discuss these

    Most descriptions I read of it are something I completely hate, and certainly can't relate to. I mean, they make it sound like a depressingly conformist person. I actually think there's a correlation between the social instinct (possibly sexual to an extent) and typology; given that typology deals so heavily with the human condition.

    The stereotype for sp/sx is a brooding, melancholy, anti-authority loner - which to an extent I fit. Authorities and communities frequently irritate me by virtue of being completely superficial and shallow - an example of this was the MLP Community in the UK. I had a very deep enthusiasm for the show, and have met some interesting individuals in those circles. However, I felt a sense of inferiority from many people within the community, who were obviously a great deal more knowledgeable and accomplished than myself. At the time, I was suffering severe self-confidence problems and took that very personally; as I've grown I've come to realize my inferiority stemmed from projecting these individuals in a very false light. They're actually very arrogant and superficial; exactly the people I want nothing to do with. The idea of devaluing a community because I couldn't connect with them is something that most social descriptions won't account for. But that's not community spirit. That's just fitting in.

    Just yesterday, I began planning a protest. Buses in my area are notoriously unreliable, with drivers stopping to smoke midway through a journey or even stop to chat to a friend. The timetables at every bus station are completely out so there's no planning in advance (unless it's a really late bus, those at least are consistent) and the last bus of the night on one occasion didn't even show up (despite the driver of another bus telling me it would arrive soon!) forcing me to walk back an hour's walk to my home. Oh yeah, and people always complain that buses drive straight past them, despite them signalling. Regardless, I'm sick of complaints and I want to take action. And I've always fancied myself as a fighter of justice, so I regard this as a test of my ability.

    I associate fitting in with self-preservation. I don't like my personal interpretation of this instinct, because I believe it's about self-survival and is extremely inauthentic in its approach to being. I associate it with selling-out and being false for the sake of security; I'm a practising musician and my Mum all the time tells me I should write pop music because it'll give me money. I won't, because it opposes the very thing I stand for - to use art as a means of expression.

    Oh yes, and I'm trying to understand typology so I can accurately type individuals. I remember spending so long looking for my type and being fooled by people's poor descriptions. I hate the simple approach to it that causes so many people to mistype, and I hate people who go around typing despite being mistyped themselves. It completely ruins the system and social structure, something I can't abide.

    And by the way, I believe my instincts are So/Sx - possibly Sx/So. Being Sp last makes the most sense to me, but that's tainted by my biases. Or is it a bias against a de-valued instinct?
    I am exploiting others as guinea pigs to further my understanding of typology.

    I'm a Ti-Ne. My MBTI is listed as ENTJ because from dichotomies alone, that's my best fit.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Default

    You sound like me. It's a trip I've been on recently, about how bad descriptions are. Would you believe I learned this stuff back in high school when a teacher explained the enneagram to us, and it took me like 15 years to figure out my core type? A lot of this was because of misleading bullshit on the internet unfortunately.

    Descriptions of instincts are even worse. I agree. The way they're rendered into buzzwords and you get people saying things like, I'm so intense I must be sx-first! I don't like group work so I am soc-last. There's so little authoritatively published that I basically studied people irl and came to my own conclusions about the instincts. Much of what the (official) descriptions say is actually true, but you can't simply choose a list of adjectives and assign yourself an instinct based on that. It's an entire sphere of focus and some associated characteristics. And it doesn't necessarily transmit well on paper/screen.

    Well, I was once one of those annoying people who typed others without knowing my own type. I thought I knew my type, but instead I was a fucking idiot and probably misled a lot of people. I still feel really bad about this. Since learning it, I've understood the enneagram on a much deeper level and feel very hesitant to type someone over the internet at all. What's difficult for me is that not everyone else has followed me. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I find it obvious when someone understands enneagram on a less-deep level, and particularly galling when these people try to assign type based on, say, buzzwords (you used the word 'courage', so you're a 6; you wrote 'civilized' so you're a 1). And it's like, you're missing the point...

    Like if I had figured out my type 15 years ago, I think I'd be in a much better position today. Instead, as you say, I was misled. All those years of inner work and personal development that I will now never have. What's also awful is how these social statuses and myths form around the types on forums like these, thus inhibiting further progress. Worse, people can wind up getting caught up in some of the attitudes and even adding and spreading their own falsehoods. Like people come online for more information and sometimes wind up even more confused...I'm a good example of what can happen, but I'll say no more. Just sharing some of my experiences and commiserating.
    *Need enneagram questionnaire?
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2218641
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Psyclepath's Avatar
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    Default

    Amen.

    My girlfriend introduced me to Avatar: The Last Airbender, and I've come to really enjoy the whole show. I've decided that Fire is my favourite element, and I especially feel a kindred spirit to Prince Zuko. The character seems to be Ti-dominant (ISTP I would guess) like myself, so I understand his somewhat obsessive, brooding nature and irritation with his Uncle Iroh (ISFJ?).

    But this is all conjecture. As is just about everything I say. I sometimes feel like I'm trying to avoid falling into every pitfall humanity has set me... and if I rush, I won't. Doesn't stop me being fucking eager to find a solution.

    And your teacher taught Enneagram? I believe teaching Enneagram to people at a young age is dangerous. Seems like it would encourage segregation. You can't teach something like that to a large class, unless they're ready. Not until at least 16, I don't think - and even that seems a stretch.
    I am exploiting others as guinea pigs to further my understanding of typology.

    I'm a Ti-Ne. My MBTI is listed as ENTJ because from dichotomies alone, that's my best fit.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Psyclepath's Avatar
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    Default

    Published this on my Facebook. Thought I'd publish it here as well.

    The idea of being a 5 is that you seek knowledge. The thing you fear is being without an answer.

    As such, Fives are always intensely solitary people. Even Fives who de-value the Self-preservation instinct (I suspect myself to be one) have an intense need for solitude, to be in a place where they can think freely.

    The Enneagram is interesting in that unlike Jung’s archetypes (which Briggs-Myers severely warped), it is unclear as to whether our Enneagram type is truly intrinsic to us. I personally believe our Enneagram type is shaped from our childhood experiences, and I do consider the (very unlikely) possibility that one may change Enneatype over their lives.

    I should make it clear that I was diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. I do not personally believe that Asperger’s Syndrome is real, and it is certainly not a disorder. It is merely a mindset, some regard it as a disorder because they do not understand the way it works. It is similar, (albeit a great deal less extreme than) to deeming science evil, because it did not make sense in its early days to the deeply religious societies it had been brought into. I believe that Asperger’s Syndrome is someone’s explanation for an individual with my mindset. Us humans hate the things we don’t understand.

    Lastly, one’s Jungian type tells their thinking pattern, but has nothing to do with an individual’s drive. That’s where the Enneagram comes in. It’s hard to tell where my drive came from, because as a child one is much more visceral and many thoughts are not consciously understood. Possibly it is that the socially detached style of communication typical of my Jungian type (TiNe) led me to recognise that I am an outsider and that I need an explanation, because I do not understand anything that is happening around me. It is interesting that many people of my Jungian type (though many are not!) Enneagram fives like myself.

    It would be fascinated to dive into my memories of being a young child, because ultimately here is where I would have the most unfiltered access to the workings of my mind. However, this is a double-edged sword; part of the reason these thoughts are unfiltered is because they are so unconscious and instinctive; many of them are without words. It is once you consciously recognise your intentions that you begin filtering your instincts: leaving only a very short timeframe where your mind is whole.

    To an extent, The Investigator is naturally intellectual; although intellectualism is an acquired taste to me. There are many intellectual fools, who irritate me because their workings are so far removed from anything real; and they are void of any substance or passion. It would be hypocritical for me however, to proclaim I hate intellectuals, because while I am not particularly academic, I am most definitely an intellectual.

    Another aspect of drive that must be brought in here is Instinctual Variants. There are three of them: Self-Preservation (focus on needs and necessities), Sexual (focus on intimacy) and Social (focus on societal structures). It is believed in the Enneagram that people value different instincts; my ordering is Social, Sexual, Self-preservation. With the Sexual instinct being focused on attraction to something outside the self and the Social instinct fired towards bonding, this creates a character that is one moment intensely reclusive and the next intensely outgoing. Perhaps because the Social instinct is paired with Sexual, I cannot remain within a circle of people unless I feel a strong connection with it - a frequent happening within my life.

    I am a deep thinker, and philosophy - even more than music is my drive. I deem music as something that is highly important to my philosophy, and I perceive the message I bring in my music as extremely important - because music is a way of expressing one’s thoughts. It is much more visceral than verbal or written communication, and as I explained in an above paragraph it is much purer.

    I would like to write more, but I am lost for words. I may write another entry on this. I hope you have enjoyed this read.
    I am exploiting others as guinea pigs to further my understanding of typology.

    I'm a Ti-Ne. My MBTI is listed as ENTJ because from dichotomies alone, that's my best fit.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyclepath View Post
    And your teacher taught Enneagram? I believe teaching Enneagram to people at a young age is dangerous. Seems like it would encourage segregation. You can't teach something like that to a large class, unless they're ready. Not until at least 16, I don't think - and even that seems a stretch.
    Well most people just didn't care. I was the only one who took it further, I think.

    Though we were in the "gifted" class, and most of us actually were 16 at the time. Still I understand your reservation, because I've seen people a decade older than that unable to handle the information in a thoughtful, mature manner.

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