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  1. #91
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
    468 sx/so
    :-( None


    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    You were exaggerating about how "desperate" I must be for favoring phone calls over text messages. And waiting for that time when the other would quit beating around the bush.
    No, I'm not saying you are personally desperate. I'm saying I disagree with the wording and I wouldn't want it attributed to me.

    Haha, and you give authority to theorists over experiences? Well, I tell you, they all have to do with it. Based on the theory Sx can be anything if it means wasting your energy on something to get high. But the only thing that narrows it down, is maybe that particular Enneagram that is associated with it. Otherwise, I see myself get high on all kinds of things (especially as a core 4) and I like to get high on women as well.
    Actually, I give credence to theory inasmuch as it checks out with my personal experiences, not vice versa. But that being said, I do listen to the cannon and make it a point to read published works so that I have a clear idea of what the theoretical premises are to begin with. I do not disagree with what you say in the bolded, as long as we remember this is figurative.

    Can you explain to me your thoughts about how core 4s are especially prone to getting high on all kinds of things? I was under the impression it was a bit different but I want to hear your take.

    Naaa, there's more to your blind spot than just neglect. It's actually the very reason why you have it's opposite as dominant in the first place.
    "The dominant instinct is the one you're focused on by default. It is generally not an easy area. If it is too easy, you are probably mistyped."
    No, actually you're focused on both. They're not separable. And I'd say the blind spot is the damaged area and the dominant is the area of overcompensation that can go bad if gone out of control.
    Actually, practitioners usually state that the dominant instinct is in fact damaged. See these words, for example, published on Enneagram Monthly:

    There are three fundamental instincts in human existence: the self-preserving (survival), the social and the sexual. You are governed by every one of these instincts, of course, but one of them will dominate your life. The instinct dominating you is the one that is the most DAMAGED of the three, where you are the least in touch with your essence, where you have the least access to that effortless flow the Zen archer uses to hit his target without aiming. In a three-party system, it is the one which carries the voice. In a family with three children, it is that crippled child who needs the most attention. It is where you are leaking essence the most dangerously. It is where you waste the most energy, while resisting the flow of essence. But just as you can change your enslaving passion into liberating virtue, your gravest deficiency can turn into the greatest fulfillment, and your most damaged instinct can become your most healed. Free-flowing instinct is pure energy.
    However, you must work with the instincts separately, entirely on their own and independently of the enneagram, in order to recognize which is the one ruling you and how your particular delusional system operates. You might want to rank them, from most to least damaged; it is useful to know such things about oneself.
    That's pretty generally accepted among enneagram practitioners. If you would like to try to prove me wrong, by all means, but I do understand the theory regardless of what you might suggest.

    No offense miss, but this is more reflective of you, I think. Ya know, Eight being the lustful type and all. DDD I mean about the stuff you write, about Sx not being the easy area... for me it's rather Sx having trouble with the social norms. The only uneasiness is to assert it in a way that they won't call me a madman. But I don't feel like a madman, because I know that everyone's just like me. Except when Sx 1 rage gets out of hand, then I'm a psychopath, haha. D But then again, people are also psychopaths. But I've never blamed my Sx, I've always feared my So blind spot.
    Again, you're going to have to explain exactly what Sx-first has to do with having trouble in the social realm in your case. I'm serious, I'm not seeing the connection. Please be specific--are there examples of how this works for you?

    I do see one reason, though: you haven't given me info about your Sx before you became avoidant, abstinent. And you said you were a boring person...
    ... and described Sx experimentation without the subversive potential of Sx.
    I mean you can be Sx but if you hold abstinence over your Sx qualities until the end of your life or or you narrow down your Sx qualities to a very few and general cases, then you mostly likely aren't.
    Sx isn't about having lots of sex. That's all I care to say about it. It may be that we are having parallel conversations where you think I'm saying one thing about myself, but I'm saying something quite different.

    "no part of instinct theory ever touches upon and no theorist mentions;" "Absolutely nothing to do with it in my case." - is there never any "in-between?" And, e-hm "While I can easily see you as sx-first due to your hangups;" "Legitimately sorry if you perceive that;" "I'm honestly sorry if you see me worried about..." What hang-ups?? And why sorry? Is this an often used choice of words at your place or have I just been missing out on an air condescension there?
    No condescension intended. I don't understand why I can't say I'm sorry if.... and that's not seen as a genuine expression of sorriness. "I don't want you to see me as ___ and I apologize if you do". I don't think it's that condescending. And yes, I see this entire thread as an expression of a hangup--you're fed up with girls who won't hit on you, and now you're taking it out on women who type as sx-first. There are no sx-first women, because if there were, they'd get it on with you right then and there, swinging from the chandalier. That's the distinct impression I am getting.

    And not having a social sphere... and by that I meant a group where you belong... well, then wait to see what that unidentified person wrote about Sx/So 8s, haha
    A) Who says I'm an 8?
    B) You were just questioning whether I put theory over experience. I am going to ask you the same. The Oceans Moonshine blurb you cite there is but one example from an obscure corner of the internet. Not a bad source, but not the final verdict on how your instinctual stacking may manifest. It's a blurb, something to reflect on and take into account, but not the ultimate authority.

    You're right there. I wasn't specific enough. Bot Sx-doms are more experimental about the social sphere... meaning that they bring a transformative quality due to their own heightened self-awareness. The Sx/Sp about their own self-awareness and Sx/So about their deeper insights into group dynamics. Confer the following excerpts...
    I am still not sure I see the connection that you do, but I thank you for sharing anyway.

    Yours against mine?? D What if most of the guys I know have all limited experience with women being initiative, direct and straightforward to them? D Gotta make some phone calls D
    What if most girls I know say the opposite??

    We could be on opposite corners of the globe, have different cultural traditions, or whatever else. Each person has a different experience, which is THE important lesson from the enneagram. One person's word against another, worlds collide, greater tolerance and understanding and all.

    Well, ya know. The experimentation you talked about a while back. I quoted you. Ring a bell?
    Yes, but just like "experimentation" doesn't have to be wild and/or sexual, it also doesn't necessarily have to come from a place of sx-first. I am sorry, but you will have to give a very clear example of how sx experimentation can run amok in the social sphere for you, or a lot of people won't quite see the connection the way it's written.

    In that regard, the most I'd say about the sx-subtypes I have known is that they were indeed eccentric, but not habitually into breaking out of the social system for its own sake. The one exception to this would be my sx/soc 6w5 father because, well, he rebelled against everyone.

    Okay, it's not my intent to be condescending or anything but eeehm... Maybe, perhaps, even for a little bit, theories may be a bit farther away from what your real strengths are? And the world needs people like that, don't get me wrong, but uuhm...
    I may quite fairly say, Two can play at that game. Back at you.

    Something I find interesting in this particular case is that according to my understanding of the theory, I quite honestly can see and accept you and your circumstances as a sx-subtype, in addition to seeing myself the same way despite ostensible differences. Your understanding, though, doesn't seem to account for mine, presumably because what I explain about mine doesn't agree with yours word-for-word. I'm not telling you a right and wrong here, or a lesson you're supposed to learn. Just food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Wait. Wait... I've missed this one. What " 'romance-' bullshit" ? Who talked here about romance? Or "romance?" DDD Did just calling by phone turn romantic overnight? DD Gimme yo #! xDDDD
    "Romance" in the English language can range from cutesy-frilly nonsense, to "loving feelings and courtship", to "romantic encounters" ie, sex. Much of which does pertain to the themes you've raised. I don't believe there was anything off about my choice of words, but if you'd like to continue mocking me, I will pull out of this discussion very quickly.

  2. #92
    Member Neokortex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    461 sx/sp
    EII Si


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    A) Who says I'm an 8?
    Methinks. It's on your tag. But now I'll also assert it. I hate 8s but after learning some more it seems to me that this whole long debating (arguing?) comes down to your 8 hiding its weaknesses. (and me being naive to fight against it) And it got sooo complicated that I even lost the woods for the tree.

    And yes, I see this entire thread as an expression of a hangup--you're fed up with girls who won't hit on you, and now you're taking it out on women who type as sx-first. There are no sx-first women, because if there were, they'd get it on with you right then and there, swinging from the chandalier. That's the distinct impression I am getting.
    Women had never been (intended to be) the main focus here. Rather the idea of social subtypes being more compromising (conforming) and thus using technology as a form of relating because their Sx blind spot would not make the risks that earlier generations did. But I don't think this applies to you since 8s are very good at making risks. I watched this video and this . I felt it wasn't worth continuing this conversation for I needed some more research to back it up and also that strong confrontation I was getting from you. Like, there still are discrepancies and things I find I can complement your knowledge with but since I hate 8s and you might become defensive (=offensive) again, I won't go the trouble. You can call me sensitive/over-reacting but in-between your lines the 8 dynamic is easily recognizable.

    So it's not big research but I thought I'd share the "anecdotal truth" that came out of my inquiries. Over the winter holiday I asked a couple of acquaintances, old friends about their experience with women.
    E8-3w2-6 ENTJ
    E9-- ISFP
    E9-3 ISFJ
    E...Sx/So 6? IXXJ
    E6-3 ESFP

    Generally, all of them said that it's rare for women to initiate. However, the ISFJ and ENTJ in particular had more instances of that happening. ISFJ pointed out that when he was working out he used to have more women come up to him and a few cases sounded exceptional while others didn't entail as much risk from the women's part. Then I remembered that ENTJ and ISFP have as much athletic, muscular body types as ISFJ. IXXJ, although very social, is as lanky & lean as me and could be also because of his gender role bias but he couldn't recollect any cases. ESFP has been having a long term relationship and his and ISFP's comments consolidated the idea that earlier in high school (8-10th grades) it was more common for girls to initiate.

    I think 8 can be easily mistaken with Sx qualities, there may be an overlap there. And when some are stronger on the 5 side of 8, compensating the 5 introversion with 8 (acting tough) could be the reason for the appeal of Sx. Of course I'm not insinuating anything... My reason for making this thread was another 8 girl who acted tough then was not willing to call me back. Because of my 1ness I'm also keen on being aware of power relations and the physical/biological energy state of the other. Hence I find this discrepancy btw the bravado of the 8 and the physically weaker sex trying to attract attention bot not in a straightforward way. Even if making this thread had something to do with whining about women, the more important thing that can come out of that is the recognition of what women's boundaries are, biologically determined, when it comes to taking risks. She was lucky with me being a 1, had I been an 8 I'd have slapped her face right away after her messing around with me passive-aggressively. "Confrontation intimacy" is just not my thing.

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