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  1. #31
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    I very often feel deep connections to a particular someone, but they are always inaccurate and never reciprocated. I always daydream about love and someone I like without pursuing it ever, whenever I see someone I really like, I can't be myself and I just need to get away. These things aren't usually what I imagine them to be, it takes so much courage to even initiate something that is supposed to be so natural. In the meantime, I see all these people with their relationships, and I feel like shouting in their faces - 'How in the world do you do it?!?!?!?'... Oh well!
    As a supposed sx-first, I feel like this!

    Thanks for this thread, btw, guys. This is really interesting!!

  2. #32
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    And to Redbone and BlackCat, not sure if you were addressing it to me or the OP or just your experiences, but I'm Sp-dom. Meanwhile the OP was discussing an So-dom acquaintance, so carry on.
    No, no...not really addressing you. It just sent me Ne spinning...

    More spin-off...
    My co-worker is an So-dom (pretty sure he is so/sp). It takes up a large chunk of What Is Important. He says it gives him joy to see everyone together, having fun and feeling good. He also wants to make sure that they are comfortable, have good food, drink, etc. That it hurts when people are left out, left behind, or forgotten...go hungry, thirsty, and what not. His wife isn't like this and he doesn't understand why she doesn't feel good to be a part of the circle ('round the fire?). He will often ask me if I'm getting with my family or friends over the weekend and if we'll be having a "good time" and urges me to connect with others in this way. He thinks my reluctance and that of his wife's comes from shyness. He frequently talks about how he spent the weekend with friends and family. It's clear that this gives him a great deal of joy and he finds a lot of meaning from the social connections he has with others.

    I feel a little wistful from time to time wondering if I am missing something.

  3. #33
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    + a million. Learning more about the other instincts (and what their cravings are for) is so helpful. That said, the bolded has been unfortunately true for me in certain cases. I was close friends with a Sp/So 2w1 for several years and always left frustrated and feeling held at arms length. I cared a lot about her, but rarely felt let in-- when I was it was very few and far between, but good. The truth though is that relationships loose value for me if they are not regularly emotionally intimate, if I'm not involved in their life (and they in mine) on a weekly basis. My relationship with the aforementioned friend eventually deteriorated in part because I'd voiced my frustrations a number of times, and all she could really do was shrug and apologize. I still see her from time to time and in passing, but it just didn't nourish either of us.

    I think I need to meditate more on how my Sp-last mannerisms manifest negatively.
    This is a general comment (and certainly not directed at you specifically, small.wonder) but I admit I'm getting a little irritated by some of the posts like this. I know you're simply expressing your experience but it is so common for Sx-lasts to be talked about like this. We are so often the punching bag and I just get a bit tired of it. The So-lasts in this thread have admitted a degree of fault on their part, but so far Sx-doms haven't exactly done the same. There can be an implied assumption that the fault lies purely with us and not with you guys. Yes, So-users are a great deal more adaptable to others, but the burden should not entirely placed on them.

    There's these implications that we Sx-lasts are all vapid, soulless, robots incapable of passion or the sorts of boundless intimacy that Sx-doms endlessly demand. We could just as easily talk about Sx-doms as selfish, needy, neurotic, emotional vampires, drama queens and spoilt children, who use and exploit other human beings to feed their needs like a crack addict. That sort of stereotyping* approach serves no one and we shouldn't apply them so readily. Also we need to acknowledge that while Sx-lasts need to be more open and present for their friends, maybe So-lasts/Sx-doms need to chill the hell out too.

    Sorry, I'm ranting a bit and don't mean for anyone to take this personally. I just hate when I start to see discussions about Sx-lasts descend into that sort of thing. I'm simply advocating for a little more balance and a deeper understanding (pun intended) of the factors involved.


    *I for one, am a e4, therefore intensity of experience IS important to me - albeit not as much as some Sx-doms.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #34
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    There's these implications that we Sx-lasts are all vapid, soulless, robots incapable of passion or the sorts of boundless intimacy that Sx-doms endlessly demand. We could just as easily talk about Sx-doms as selfish, needy, neurotic, emotional vampires, drama queens and spoilt children, who use and exploit other human beings to feed their needs like a crack addict. That sort of stereotyping* approach serves no one and we shouldn't apply them so readily. Also we need to acknowledge that while Sx-lasts need to be more open and present for their friends, maybe So-lasts/Sx-doms need to chill the hell out too.
    I feel you here SK. I haven't been in thread because I have personally been on the fence about being so-sp or so-sx.

    If you think of sx-firsts as energy consumers rather than energy conservationists (sp-first) or energy providers (so-first) it's easier to define the edges. As a consumer, sx-first primary need or expectation is to be fed. Once nourished, they will be able to give energy-out (sx-so) or hoard it (sx-sp). sx-firsts have the hardest time of any type maintaining a balanced relationship to energy, because they know they want it and it always feels to them like it is being withheld. Therefore, the attitudinal perspective is one of looking to the other as the causative factor in that withholding, rather than coming to the realization that their need for energy outstrips the resources around them.

    In an sx-sx relationship, the tension of who's feeding who tends to increase with time, as one partner will generally feel that they are being tapped for resources rather than being nourished with them.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  5. #35
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel you here SK. I haven't been in thread because I have personally been on the fence about being so-sp or so-sx.

    If you think of sx-firsts as energy consumers rather than energy conservationists (sp-first) or energy providers (so-first) it's easier to define the edges. As a consumer, sx-first primary need or expectation is to be fed. Once nourished, they will be able to give energy-out (sx-so) or hoard it (sx-sp). sx-firsts have the hardest time of any type maintaining a balanced relationship to energy, because they know they want it and it always feels to them like it is being withheld. Therefore, the attitudinal perspective is one of looking to the other as the causative factor in that withholding, rather than coming to the realization that their need for energy outstrips the resources around them.

    In an sx-sx relationship, the tension of who's feeding who tends to increase with time, as one partner will generally feel that they are being tapped for resources rather than being nourished with them.
    I think this is an apt description (in broad terms).

    Then why is it so often that Social doms are accused of denying others of what they demand, instead of questioning the right to reasonably make those demands in the first place? The matter is so much more complex and two-sided than people seem to want to allow
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #36
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel you here SK. I haven't been in thread because I have personally been on the fence about being so-sp or so-sx.

    If you think of sx-firsts as energy consumers rather than energy conservationists (sp-first) or energy providers (so-first) it's easier to define the edges. As a consumer, sx-first primary need or expectation is to be fed. Once nourished, they will be able to give energy-out (sx-so) or hoard it (sx-sp). sx-firsts have the hardest time of any type maintaining a balanced relationship to energy, because they know they want it and it always feels to them like it is being withheld. Therefore, the attitudinal perspective is one of looking to the other as the causative factor in that withholding, rather than coming to the realization that their need for energy outstrips the resources around them.

    In an sx-sx relationship, the tension of who's feeding who tends to increase with time, as one partner will generally feel that they are being tapped for resources rather than being nourished with them.
    Yeah, I absolutely don't think there is fault in any one party with an sx-dom and sx-last person having relationship issues as a result.

    This post rang pretty true to me. I get my energy from being immersed. It's been a part of growing up for me not to rely on people for that, especially not only on my intimates. I am developing other ways to feed myself by exploring ideas, getting lost in music, going on solo adventures, etc. However well I develop those self stimulating strategies, I'm still sx first, and I still need a higher degree of intensity or closeness especially in my romantic relationships. It's about finding balance while still honoring your needs.
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  7. #37
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel you here SK. I haven't been in thread because I have personally been on the fence about being so-sp or so-sx.

    If you think of sx-firsts as energy consumers rather than energy conservationists (sp-first) or energy providers (so-first) it's easier to define the edges. As a consumer, sx-first primary need or expectation is to be fed. Once nourished, they will be able to give energy-out (sx-so) or hoard it (sx-sp). sx-firsts have the hardest time of any type maintaining a balanced relationship to energy, because they know they want it and it always feels to them like it is being withheld. Therefore, the attitudinal perspective is one of looking to the other as the causative factor in that withholding, rather than coming to the realization that their need for energy outstrips the resources around them.

    In an sx-sx relationship, the tension of who's feeding who tends to increase with time, as one partner will generally feel that they are being tapped for resources rather than being nourished with them.
    This is a great way of putting it!
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #38
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think this is an apt description (in broad terms).

    Then why is it so often that Social doms are accused of denying others of what they demand, instead of questioning the right to reasonably make those demands in the first place? The matter is so much more complex and two-sided than people seem to want to allow
    I think sp-first get accused of this the most. But the idea of having some right to the demand seems so, yes. The idea that there is some protocol to be adhered to, or else you are being unreasonable in your demands. Since you're so/sp, you probably have both aspects. Being sp/sx, I have a bad tendency to want to receive more than I give, as far as energy. I want more response to me than I want to respond in turn, and it's a problem in my relationships if I don't keep aware of it. I like getting emails, messages, texts, invites, etc, but I feel burdened to respond. I just soak up and soak up. But the energy it takes to respond sometimes is overwhelming.

    I know so types generally expect a reasonable, fair, even give-and-take, and I like that idea, but I don't practice it as well in reality (and it's funny considering I DO worry about unevenness in feelings, of caring more than others. I suspect this self-preservation aspect is also protecting me from putting out energy where I may not receive anything back, so I make others "prove" it).

    When someone is sx-dom, I think it's like they don't realize how much they are demanding. They just seem aware of what they are putting out, and not considering they are not always reciprocating, but just sucking, or that their giving feels like it has strings attached. The so type's "giving" feels like it has strings attached too, but not in the luring-in way an sx's does, where they seem to begin to take at a higher rate than they are giving once they've "got you".

    I know an e2 who I think is sx/sp, and she creates this fun, sexy, party girl image to attract a boyfriend, then once she's moved in and frequently gotten engaged within 2 months (yes, its a pattern), she stops being so fun & sexy. Now all of her many illnesses, physical & emotional, come to the fore & she can no longer work, so she expects the fiancé to support her. She still wants tons of pampering, attention and affection, while really contributing nothing to the relationship, not even being emotionally supportive, and not even bothering to cook or clean or do anything despite not working. Then when they cannot handle it all, she dumps them & moves onto someone else.

    That's a very extreme example of someone who is unhealthy in many ways, but it illustrates the luring through appearing to give a lot, and then eventually demanding more & more without giving as much as times goes on.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #39
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This is a general comment (and certainly not directed at you specifically, small.wonder) but I admit I'm getting a little irritated by some of the posts like this. I know you're simply expressing your experience but it is so common for Sx-lasts to be talked about like this. We are so often the punching bag and I just get a bit tired of it. The So-lasts in this thread have admitted a degree of fault on their part, but so far Sx-doms haven't exactly done the same. There can be an implied assumption that the fault lies purely with us and not with you guys. Yes, So-users are a great deal more adaptable to others, but the burden should not entirely placed on them.

    There's these implications that we Sx-lasts are all vapid, soulless, robots incapable of passion or the sorts of boundless intimacy that Sx-doms endlessly demand. We could just as easily talk about Sx-doms as selfish, needy, neurotic, emotional vampires, drama queens and spoilt children, who use and exploit other human beings to feed their needs like a crack addict. That sort of stereotyping* approach serves no one and we shouldn't apply them so readily. Also we need to acknowledge that while Sx-lasts need to be more open and present for their friends, maybe So-lasts/Sx-doms need to chill the hell out too.

    Sorry, I'm ranting a bit and don't mean for anyone to take this personally. I just hate when I start to see discussions about Sx-lasts descend into that sort of thing. I'm simply advocating for a little more balance and a deeper understanding (pun intended) of the factors involved.


    *I for one, am a e4, therefore intensity of experience IS important to me - albeit not as much as some Sx-doms.
    Yeah, I think this is unfortunately true of some Sx-doms and the way they paint Sx-last folks-- I personally do not see my previous post as doing that though (and I do acknowledge you said it wasn't addressed towards me individually). I said that the reason my close friendship didn't work out was because neither of us were feeling satisfied with the friendship. She was Sp first and I'm Sp-last, so I'm sure she was just as frustrated in other ways in our relationship-- though the only time she ever gave voice to that was after much passive aggression, when she ended basically telling me that she resented the "power over her" she'd given me by allowing emotional intimacy. This flabbergasted me because I'd felt manipulated by her...obviously it's a long story, but it was definitely mutually agreed on as not a great thing-- at least not to have as a staple friendship.

    I am sorry you have have had negative experience with Sx first individuals and the way the have framed those with different instincts, though I'm not sure I'm guilty of that personally. I've definitely been frustrated by the disconnect it sometimes causes in relationships, but would never blame that on the other person or who they are.

    I feel a similar sentiment of being "written off" as a Sx dom too, like I'm just too much for everyone and feeling like I set fire to things, and people just steer clear of me. This is not reality, but it is how I feel sometimes!
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  10. #40
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I've had/have three very close relationships with sx last. Maybe these can provide food for thought.

    My mom is sp/soc. She's very warm and helpful, ESFJ 2w1. She will absolutely do everything to make you feel better if you're feeling bad, but it's all about action and practical things. And hugs, lol. But she's very self-effacing, which is 2, but also sx-last. It's hard to get into her emotional core, even though though she's very much a Feeler and she's incredibly caring. It's like there is a level of her which rarely presents itself and is really hard to reach. But she forms such deep bonds. It's a steady, incredibly strong, practically-expressed love. And it is so, so strong. What is surprisingly like sx to me is that she has those super, super strong bonds with her parents, my dad, and her children. And not really any others. I think they take a really long time to develop.

    My best friend in college was soc/sp. Part of the reason I became friends with her was that I was fascinated by her "shell". She was very private, even though she was a fairly outgoing and gregarious ENFJ, 3w4. She had an incredible veneer. Very perfect on top and lots of stress below. And later, as I would learn, pain. She was so careful about who could see what of her, and only leaked the hurt parts to the people she had a high level of trust for. I felt like I was always the one pressing for us to be closer friends, but as time went on, she also came to trust and rely on me. She has shared heartbreaking depth, though. I know that there are very few people in the world who have been privy to her sharing those feelings. After college, we went on separate paths, and I catch up with her periodically, but I still have to prompt her for private feelings. She will stay in the "socially acceptable" zones otherwise.

    I'm in a relationship now with a sp/soc 9w1 ISFJ. I sometimes feel a lack of that "burning passion" sense in our relationship, but the longer we are together, the more I understand that it's not that those strong feelings are not within him, but that he is actually fairly uncomfortable with them - as far as I understand it he feels like they disrupt his feelings of personal stability - and he's uncomfortable about voicing or demonstrating them, as well. He also was slower than me to voice feeling love, but we spent a ridiculous amount of time together at the beginning of our relationship. We still do, actually, if life doesn't stop us. We have to intentionally cut ourselves off of we will hang out with each other until we are sick of each other. That seems like an sx thing, but evidently not.

    So I think... Patterns being... I notice a theme of difficulty to "get in" to their intimate feelings. That might be represented by a shell, or by time needed to establish connection, or by certain "keys" being needed to feel ready to open up with someone. It's also usually a limited amount of people they bond deeply with, but the bonds are very strong where they exist. And they may not prefer the emotionally, dynamically charged, urgent expression of feeling that I think sx-strong people tend to prefer.

    FWIW, I do not think they are "less deep". I used to fear that, which is as lacking in truth as N being "deeper" than S. Both are illusions brought about by differing ways of conveying information. I think if Sx-first feels like they are not getting enough or if Sx-last feels like they are overwhelmed (and even as Sx-second I have personally felt overwhelmed by some Sx-firsts!), then it is probably a "lost in translation" more than an inherent flaw on either person's part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    Then why is it so often that Social doms are accused of denying others of what they demand, instead of questioning the right to reasonably make those demands in the first place?
    First - want to say that I emphasize with the feelings in your post. Sx-last tendencies seem to become a scapegoat for Sx-first frustration sometimes.

    IRT the quote - Can you give an example of what you mean? I don't think I've heard this before, or maybe I have and I don't realize.

    --

    PS - Not sure I can see myself as an energy provider, or other Socials like that. I see the creator-preserver-destroyer triad and I love the idea but I don't think it necessarily works here. Maybe Social as energy/resource rearranger if anything.

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