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  1. #51
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Interesting.

    The sp vs so proportions are EXACTLY what I have always figured.

    The sx dom representation, if my whole estimation is correct, is ~6x what it would be in the normal population, tho.
    Interesting that sx-lasts are the least common as well. I'm sure there's a reason for it, but it might also be that people would have an aversion to labeling themselves as sx-last.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  2. #52
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Are they?

  3. #53
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Sorry the replies took so long. I was on holiday in Australia.


    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Southern Kross,

    Clueless n00b de-lurks to fire a photon (oh, all right, technically it's an electron) torpedo.
    But now that I have observed it, it's behaving like a wave.

    I agree with you that one's Enneagram influences the outward appearance of one's instinctive stackings; the more so when the "leaning" of the instinctive stacking runs counter to the, err, the "stereotypical" bent of one's Enneagram: as for example an SO-dominant E9 INFP, or an SX-dominant E4 INFP.

    I would suggest that the SX, while it can manifest in sexuality, often ends up manifesting as raw naked INTENSITY, and seeking fusion with another confidante or lover, the whole "soulmate" or "mindmate" thingy.
    The SO, I would say, is not just "being social" or climbing the social ladder, but what Isaac Asimov attributed to the Kloros in the short story C-Chute : awareness of social groupings, of cliques, of political or friendship alliances. (Incidentally the last line of that story *really* ties into the SO instinct, though if you squint just right, you could make it apply to any instinctive stacking.)
    For SP, I have a hard time matching it to anything but "prudence" and all that: of which the typical life-style manifestations *would* be food, money, safety - though, I'll gladly add to my fount of knowledge should anyone wish to correct me.

    Thus spake the 5w4 SX/SP...
    I agree for Sx and So (relatively speaking), but I'm with OA about the Sp definition. I'm going to be lame and quote my own definition from a previous thread (with some editing because it's kinda icky reading now):

    Self-pres instinct
    Driven by a sense of the fragility of one's own existence. Sp-doms are highly threatened by external elements they believe that may destabilise their ability to flourish. They fear that outside forces may erode their 'separateness' and gradually consume them. Their sense of body and identity is so indefinite they feel compelled to draw strong personal boundaries in which to protect themselves. They feel the need to actively fight to retain the cornerstones that are so precious to them. These may include: comfort, health, autonomy, dignity, privacy, strength/power, reliability, accuracy, reputation, knowledge, safety, individuality etc. Sp-doms seek to establish an environment of personal security and selfhood, which will enable them to thrive.
    I don't know if this is 100% correct, but it seems to basically encapsulate what I've observed. What do you think @OrangeAppled?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    See, I've always seen any intensity in you as being out of a strong desire to establish a line in the sand with regards to your identity (eg. "this is what I'm not" or "this is what I won't put up with"). I think one of the major mistakes people make when it comes to the understanding the instincts is that they fail to take into account where the expression comes from. Sure, Sx is often associated with a passionate nature, but couldn't a Sp be passionate about protecting their personal boundaries? Passion and intensity aren't the foundation for the Sexual instinct; they are merely the resulting expressions of a strong desire for profound connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    Hmmm. I see SP as being more self-reliant and security oriented. This does not necessarily translate to cold and fastidious, unless it's a really unbalanced SP with very little SO or SX. Also, how does sad and desperate relate to SO?
    I don't think they relate to those things either but I see it in some of the attitudes toward typing, for example. People are very reluctant to see extroverted or fun loving people as potentially Sp-dom, but they can be just that.

    With So-doms there can be this perception that all they care about is impressing and appeasing others, either out of insecurity and/or out of a pathetic and desperate ambition to succeed. It's seen as uncool to care about what other people think - it's basically code for conformism and neediness.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #54
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I agree for Sx and So (relatively speaking), but I'm with OA about the Sp definition. I'm going to be lame and quote my own definition from a previous thread (with some editing because it's kinda icky reading now):

    Self-pres instinct
    Driven by a sense of the fragility of one's own existence. Sp-doms are highly threatened by external elements they believe that may destabilise their ability to flourish. They fear that outside forces may erode their 'separateness' and gradually consume them. Their sense of body and identity is so indefinite they feel compelled to draw strong personal boundaries in which to protect themselves. They feel the need to actively fight to retain the cornerstones that are so precious to them. These may include: comfort, health, autonomy, dignity, privacy, strength/power, reliability, accuracy, reputation, knowledge, safety, individuality etc. Sp-doms seek to establish an environment of personal security and selfhood, which will enable them to thrive.
    I don't know if this is 100% correct, but it seems to basically encapsulate what I've observed. What do you think @OrangeAppled?
    I think this is better, yes. I think that many so descriptions rightfully include how a strong so instinct can make someone shy or inhibited. I think sp descriptions do well to include how sp can make someone indulgent & reckless, which would appear opposite of seeking security or stability, but it's a security via autonomy via rejection of classic stability/security (which can be confining). Many things that others find to bring security can feel like it overwhelms me to maintain & even threatens my identity; it asks me to "conform" too much. To an absurd degree, I pursue a lifestyle in which I have very little accountability to any human. This is "security" to me, although I do not generally use that word or see it that way, because of its connotations being all wrong. The most threatening thing to my survival, which I experience as my individual identity, is to have to play by rules which ask me to be something I am not, to care about things I don't care about, to have my strengths devalued & asked to be repressed, etc. I recognize the immaturity here, but it also drives me to take care of myself 100% & to accept the bumps in the road in rejecting certain "securities". As sp, you are not necessarily responsible in the classic sense, but you take the responsibility, if that makes sense.

    I have a difficult time asking for help from others. I don't want to be a burden, but I also have shame at needing help & fear of being indebted. Admitting I need not only help, but also friendship & love & human contact in general was a big thing for me, and although it began years ago, it's still a struggle with practicalities & even reaching out to friends. I feel like sx-dom are more comfortable with a dependance on others, even emotionally.


    See, I've always seen any intensity in you as being out of a strong desire to establish a line in the sand with regards to your identity (eg. "this is what I'm not" or "this is what I won't put up with"). I think one of the major mistakes people make when it comes to the understanding the instincts is that they fail to take into account where the expression comes from. Sure, Sx is often associated with a passionate nature, but couldn't a Sp be passionate about protecting their personal boundaries? Passion and intensity aren't the foundation for the Sexual instinct; they are merely the resulting expressions of a strong desire for profound connection.
    This is an astute observation, and I do agree. But I very much have an angry resentment that goes beyond my identity & is more classic 4 envy that others "have" what I long for, especially if I deem them less deserving somehow. But as I said, it's classic 4, which tends to look sx to those with a less refined eye for type.

    I don't think they relate to those things either but I see it in some of the attitudes toward typing, for example. People are very reluctant to see extroverted or fun loving people as potentially Sp-dom, but they can be just that.
    Much of what people attribute to sx (which is like, everything) is really so & sp stuff, but if you add "passion" or "intensity" into it, then people think it's sx.
    Passionate about interests, hobbies, and knowledge & like pursuing them independently? sp!
    Want novel & intense sensory experiences? just as likely sp/sx as sx-dom
    Want strong, enduring, personal & even intimate connections? so!
    Repel or attract people strongly? Could be so, depending on if you've cracked their social code or have fumbled

    With So-doms there can be this perception that all they care about is impressing and appeasing others, either out of insecurity and/or out of a pathetic and desperate ambition to succeed. It's seen as uncool to care about what other people think - it's basically code for conformism and neediness.
    I have a different distortion of the so, which is that they are "magical". They have these skills & insights that I have difficulty comprehending the workings of. I know many suffer from social anxiety and inhibition & shyness, but they may even simply have an awareness & understanding of the world & its workings on a global level that is daunting to me. I admit, I often don't care, but when I do venture to peek into this part of life the manner of dissecting & making connections & predictions, etc, is impressively complex to me. I feel small-minded when I acknowledge my main preoccupations in life are finding a romantic soul mate & achieving the level of autonomy I feel I need to meet my ideals.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #55
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think this is better, yes. I think that many so descriptions rightfully include how a strong so instinct can make someone shy or inhibited. I think sp descriptions do well to include how sp can make someone indulgent & reckless, which would appear opposite of seeking security or stability, but it's a security via autonomy via rejection of classic stability/security (which can be confining). Many things that others find to bring security can feel like it overwhelms me to maintain & even threatens my identity; it asks me to "conform" too much. To an absurd degree, I pursue a lifestyle in which I have very little accountability to any human. This is "security" to me, although I do not generally use that word or see it that way, because of its connotations being all wrong. The most threatening thing to my survival, which I experience as my individual identity, is to have to play by rules which ask me to be something I am not, to care about things I don't care about, to have my strengths devalued & asked to be repressed, etc. I recognize the immaturity here, but it also drives me to take care of myself 100% & to accept the bumps in the road in rejecting certain "securities". As sp, you are not necessarily responsible in the classic sense, but you take the responsibility, if that makes sense.

    I have a difficult time asking for help from others. I don't want to be a burden, but I also have shame at needing help & fear of being indebted. Admitting I need not only help, but also friendship & love & human contact in general was a big thing for me, and although it began years ago, it's still a struggle with practicalities & even reaching out to friends. I feel like sx-dom are more comfortable with a dependance on others, even emotionally.
    Oh, I very much agree. I realise "security" is a problematic word for it. It will only seem like security if you look at the core drive behind the expression, because, like you say, it can result in behaviour that will seem like anything but.

    Thanks for the elaboration. It helps with understanding the mindset It's strange reading this. I recognise a lot of that stuff in myself, having Sp second in my stacking, but it's hard to pick up on it directly because So is just that much 'louder' - it's there but it gets a little drowned out.

    This is an astute observation, and I do agree. But I very much have an angry resentment that goes beyond my identity & is more classic 4 envy that others "have" what I long for, especially if I deem them less deserving somehow. But as I said, it's classic 4, which tends to look sx to those with a less refined eye for type.
    Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that it was the only factor. 4s certainly have an Sx flavour to them regardless of instinctual stacking.

    It does come back to factoring in type in combination with and opposition to the instincts.

    Much of what people attribute to sx (which is like, everything) is really so & sp stuff, but if you add "passion" or "intensity" into it, then people think it's sx.
    Passionate about interests, hobbies, and knowledge & like pursuing them independently? sp!
    Want novel & intense sensory experiences? just as likely sp/sx as sx-dom
    Want strong, enduring, personal & even intimate connections? so!
    Repel or attract people strongly? Could be so, depending on if you've cracked their social code or have fumbled
    Agreed.

    I have a different distortion of the so, which is that they are "magical". They have these skills & insights that I have difficulty comprehending the workings of. I know many suffer from social anxiety and inhibition & shyness, but they may even simply have an awareness & understanding of the world & its workings on a global level that is daunting to me. I admit, I often don't care, but when I do venture to peek into this part of life the manner of dissecting & making connections & predictions, etc, is impressively complex to me. I feel small-minded when I acknowledge my main preoccupations in life are finding a romantic soul mate & achieving the level of autonomy I feel I need to meet my ideals.
    Interesting. Do you feel like you might be missing out on something that's not even on your radar, or is it just that it's more of an obstacle to getting on with things?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #56
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    "I feel small-minded when I acknowledge my main preoccupations in life are finding a romantic soul mate & achieving the level of autonomy I feel I need to meet my ideals. "
    @OrangeAppled -- You're *NORMAL*, D@mmit. Other people simply have lower standards, and so meet those standards more easily.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #57
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    With So-doms there can be this perception that all they care about is impressing and appeasing others, either out of insecurity and/or out of a pathetic and desperate ambition to succeed. It's seen as uncool to care about what other people think - it's basically code for conformism and neediness.
    I can be pretty antisocial and misanthropic, probably because I'm a 1 and have no Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have a different distortion of the so, which is that they are "magical".


    They have these skills & insights that I have difficulty comprehending the workings of. I know many suffer from social anxiety and inhibition & shyness, but they may even simply have an awareness & understanding of the world & its workings on a global level that is daunting to me.
    Perhaps @Vasilisa can comment on this. Pretty please?
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  8. #58
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross @OrangeAppled (just to contribute to the discussion I'm seeing)

    The issue I have with the way a lot of people describe social-doms and the social instinct is that it just doesn't seem to measure up to sp and sx descriptions. Not saying that sp and sx are described as "better" but that the sp and sx descriptions actually seem to discuss more the priorities of those instincts than the way they perceive their surroundings. Otoh, the social instinct just seems to be described as an "awareness" of how interpersonal dynamics are functioning in your surroundings and what things represent in a broader social context. I get how that can be prioritized (just as much as how I get sp creates an awareness of what your body wants, what needs to be done to ensure "security," etc), but the "core drive" of it doesn't seem to be touched on as much as the other two. I often see descriptions saying the social variant desires a sense of belonging, community, social alliances, etc but that just doesn't sound completely accurate to me. I like creating new connections and bonding with people, the feeling of being included and having close friends to make me feel connected, and I do see that as one of my driving forces but the "awareness" that gets discussed is something I either sometimes have or other times completely lack. I forget to check in with others a lot, I really neglect how my actions impact my environment when taking action, and I kind of don't really scan my social environment at all sometimes. It doesn't seem to be something that really burdens my mind or anything, but at the same time I feel a lot more lighter and cordial for sx/so, and I seem to have more healthier attitude towards the sx instinct (at least in my mind anyway) so I'm not sure! I feel like the social instinct needs a lot of clarification haha.

    @Haven @EJCC I summon thee too.
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  9. #59
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @Chanaynay I dunno -- sometimes I have a hard time separating the social instinct from extroversion and from SJ, in terms of how I operate. Some social-last folks on the forum have described to me that they see social-firsts as having a network of "backup" people, almost. I suspect with so/sp it'd almost be like networking, with a system of friendly acquaintances, and with so/sx -- the "best friend" -- it'd be a system of pals. Either way, those people serve as a form of insulation, to keep them from feeling lonely and isolated from the community/group/world.

    Also, remember that conversation we had about so/sx and curating their own group, from their favorite people in the groups they're a part of? There's that too -- essentially picking people out to serve as your human shield, your group security.

    This is what I'd presume, anyway. You'd be better off waiting on @Southern Kross to answer -- someone less extroverted and SJ.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  10. #60
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    (snip)
    But when I read sp 4 descriptions, it talks nothing of food, money, safety, etc, in terms of security or responsibility. And I'd hardly call myself "prudent". I've read sp 4 descriptions about impulsively quitting jobs & spending money on impractical things they can't afford, etc. It's almost more like "counter self-preservation" if you take the sp instinct in the most literal sense; instead, it's a preservation of the emotional state - the fixation of envy, the frustration born of longing. It also involves what I call "self-soothing", almost like self-medicating, but with luxuries & indulgences as consolation prizes for being "unfulfilled" in life. The sp 4 is called reckless, independent, & tenacious.
    (snip)
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    (snip)
    I agree for Sx and So (relatively speaking), but I'm with OA about the Sp definition. I'm going to be lame and quote my own definition from a previous thread (with some editing because it's kinda icky reading now):



    I don't know if this is 100% correct, but it seems to basically encapsulate what I've observed. What do you think @OrangeAppled?


    See, I've always seen any intensity in you as being out of a strong desire to establish a line in the sand with regards to your identity (eg. "this is what I'm not" or "this is what I won't put up with"). I think one of the major mistakes people make when it comes to the understanding the instincts is that they fail to take into account where the expression comes from. Sure, Sx is often associated with a passionate nature, but couldn't a Sp be passionate about protecting their personal boundaries? Passion and intensity aren't the foundation for the Sexual instinct; they are merely the resulting expressions of a strong desire for profound connection.

    (snip>
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think this is better, yes. I think that many so descriptions rightfully include how a strong so instinct can make someone shy or inhibited. I think sp descriptions do well to include how sp can make someone indulgent & reckless, which would appear opposite of seeking security or stability, but it's a security via autonomy via rejection of classic stability/security (which can be confining). Many things that others find to bring security can feel like it overwhelms me to maintain & even threatens my identity; it asks me to "conform" too much. To an absurd degree, I pursue a lifestyle in which I have very little accountability to any human. This is "security" to me, although I do not generally use that word or see it that way, because of its connotations being all wrong. The most threatening thing to my survival, which I experience as my individual identity, is to have to play by rules which ask me to be something I am not, to care about things I don't care about, to have my strengths devalued & asked to be repressed, etc. I recognize the immaturity here, but it also drives me to take care of myself 100% & to accept the bumps in the road in rejecting certain "securities". As sp, you are not necessarily responsible in the classic sense, but you take the responsibility, if that makes sense.

    I have a difficult time asking for help from others. I don't want to be a burden, but I also have shame at needing help & fear of being indebted. Admitting I need not only help, but also friendship & love & human contact in general was a big thing for me, and although it began years ago, it's still a struggle with practicalities & even reaching out to friends. I feel like sx-dom are more comfortable with a dependance on others, even emotionally.




    This is an astute observation, and I do agree. But I very much have an angry resentment that goes beyond my identity & is more classic 4 envy that others "have" what I long for, especially if I deem them less deserving somehow. But as I said, it's classic 4, which tends to look sx to those with a less refined eye for type.



    Much of what people attribute to sx (which is like, everything) is really so & sp stuff, but if you add "passion" or "intensity" into it, then people think it's sx.
    Passionate about interests, hobbies, and knowledge & like pursuing them independently? sp!
    Want novel & intense sensory experiences? just as likely sp/sx as sx-dom
    Want strong, enduring, personal & even intimate connections? so!
    Repel or attract people strongly? Could be so, depending on if you've cracked their social code or have fumbled

    (snip)
    I think I got it.
    SX = "intensity, applied to interests, or soulmate/mindmate, or sex"
    SP = "preservation not of the body, but of the mind, soul, and *self* (chosen or desired identity)"
    SO = "knowledge of all social relations and communications and groupings, and now to navigate and/or use them in support of the other stackings' goals"

    That wasn't so difficult after all.
    (Seems my 40 HP kitchen blender got jammed after all. Too many other topics input into the feed over the past couple of weeks!)

    Thanks to @Southern Kross and @OrangeAppled for tremendous insights!
    Last edited by grey_beard; 06-02-2014 at 09:35 PM. Reason: missing left double-quote
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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