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[sx] The other side of SX

Animal

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okay interesting...that's like the type 4 version of sxness

type 7 just feels manic or spazzy or incapable of dealing with it atm

"incapable of dealing with it atm"
So interesting =)

You don't expect to get rejected though?
 

Lady_X

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"incapable of dealing with it atm"
So interesting =)

You don't expect to get rejected though?

no...major type 7/4 difference there. i'm not even worried or thinking about how i'm being viewed. i'm just like...i can't talk to you cuz you make me nervous
 

Animal

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no...major type 7/4 difference there. i'm not even worried or thinking about how i'm being viewed. i'm just like...i can't talk to you cuz you make me nervous

Yeah. This was one reason I could never see myself as a 7 despite receiving lots of 7 suggestions, due to my apparent confidence in my mind and my tenacity etc.

I do have this problem where.. I'm relatively confident I suppose. But when something really matters to me, I expect to get rejected or be belittled, or to never be good enough. For no logical reason - though I manage to come up with reasons that the other person is better than me, or their other options are better than me. I had to learn to tell myself that logically it's just me, doing this to myself, and there's nothing rational about it. And that people either like me or they don't, and it doesn't matter if they or the competition are objectively "better." Many of my songs are about working up the courage to come forth with my feelings even IF I get rejected because at least it's better than never trying … or being dishonest.. etc.

My father is a 7w8 on the other hand, and he excessively confident. He expects everyone wants him and admires him. It's astounding :) but I like it. I think his confidence in me - his tremendous support and confidence and expectation of my success - is a huge reason I'm as confident as I am. That outlook is contagious. He finds everything that's good about me and helps me to improve it even more on the basis that it's already amazing and I should cherish it.
 

Lady_X

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Yeah. This was one reason I could never see myself as a 7 despite receiving lots of 7 suggestions, due to my apparent confidence in my mind and my tenacity etc.

I do have this problem where.. I'm relatively confident I suppose. But when something really matters to me, I expect to get rejected or be belittled, or to never be good enough. For no logical reason - though I manage to come up with reasons that the other person is better than me, or their other options are better than me. I had to learn to tell myself that logically it's just me, doing this to myself, and there's nothing rational about it. And that people either like me or they don't, and it doesn't matter if they or the competition are objectively "better." Many of my songs are about working up the courage to come forth with my feelings even IF I get rejected because at least it's better than never trying … or being dishonest.. etc.

My father is a 7w8 on the other hand, and he excessively confident. He expects everyone wants him and worships him. It's astounding :) but I like it. I think his confidence in me - his tremendous support and confidence and expectation of my success - is a huge reason I'm as confident as I am. That outlook is contagious. He finds everything that's good about me and helps me to improve it even more on the basis that it's already amazing and I should cherish it.

right... I'm totally like that with my type 4 bf. i just don't relate to that type of concern at all. if anything i always expect the most ideal outcomes because why not? i don't know. type 7's can be delusional haha
 

Animal

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right... I'm totally like that with my type 4 bf. i just don't relate to that type of concern at all. if anything i always expect the most ideal outcomes because why not? i don't know. type 7's can be delusional haha
Hehe. He is lucky to have you =)

I don't think its necessarily delusional. A positive outlook goes a long way. I am very thankful for my 7 fix.
 

Starry

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idk...honestly i can only really remember this happening a couple times...i guess it's just nerves? or maybe i'm just feeling something too intensely to talk. it's like the energy over here is too much and i'm going to throw up so i'm just going to bounce it around the room everywhere else.

haha no really idk let me think on it.


No, that's definitely the experience of it. You are describing exactly what occurs.


hardly being able to stand up because your whole body is folding double thinking about a certain girl...


I've even had the experience where I feel I've hurt...or confused the person I have, in reality, developed deeply caring feelings for which is so messed-up... "Hey, weren't the last twenty times we hung-out together so fun? I thought so too...like everything just flowed so well between us. Unfortunately, now that I have fallen in love with you...I will involuntarily treat you like you have leprosy."



Well, most every ENFP on here has reported "having no problem flirting when they don't really mean it (i.e., aren't that into the person), but, once they really like someone in a romantic way, they get all clammy, don't know what to do, and often become silent around the other person".

Something like that.



I think it has to do with the extent Fi...is being engaged.

I hesitate some to use this example because without providing the details I fear it completely misrepresents what actually occurred...but basically, a couple years back I went on an extended road-trip/camping trip with some friends...and after being pulled-over by a small-town, rookie cop intent on doing everything by the book... I charmed/smoked/mirrored my way out of 4 expensive citations. This experience has been referred to as me having gone *full rainbow* (I also want to make this absolutely clear this was not flirtation... This situation was stubborn/tricky and demanded...rainbow.)

^^When literally everything concerning a situation exists in the realm of possibility... Ne can work miracles. We can see exactly what to spin and tweak to create more possibilities...to have an influence...to manipulate...to take people on a fun journey... to create a fantasy... a wonderland. In the above situation... the rookie cop was a possibility...the information was a possibility...the outcome was a possibility. <-with this Ne can get in there and manipulate reality faster than time can put the moment into the past. Here's where we shine. Here's where people love us to be. And here's where flirtation exists. For what is flirtation other than pointing towards possibilities?

If Fi was engaged and I had a sense of responsibility to that police officer...I couldn't have invoked the power of the rainbow. Once things become real...Fi...makes us responsible to it. Which is one of the reasons why we struggle when taking things from "what is possible" to "what is real." "What lives in the external realm" vs "what lives internally in my heart." If the transition from "possibility" to "real" happens very, very slowly over time...we can handle it and are thankful for new realities and responsibilities. The problem is... *love* rarely unfolds in this slow manner but rather hits like an epiphany... one day it's just "someone you know"...the next *Holy Fuck I love that person* And it can be so overwhelming...we no longer know how to be...we become different once Fi engages and sometimes we don't even know how to show that to the other person. It's often too much and we'll bolt.

edit: I should say this is to the best of what I could intuit/piece together...what I believe is happening.
 

OrangeAppled

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I get overwhelmed by the energy.
But also I get EXTREMELY self conscious. Like I imagine what I look like through his eyes and it's never good enough, never as good as he looks through my eyes. Or I just EXPECT to get rejected, for no real reason.. I just feel disgusting and worthless and stupid, like nothing I say is interesting enough. "The fantasy of being rejected leads to the very behavior that gets me rejected" basically.

Seems like most 4s might relate to this.

I relate to not being able to flirt with anyone I find remotely attractive, although I'd hardly say I flirt well with anyone, period.
But when I have or when I do, it's usually someone I feel comfortable with, and attraction seems to require some tension. So with someone attractive to me, it's like I go mute & feel frozen. The few occasions these really good-looking men attempted to flirt with me, I was a total deer in headlights.

I definitely get a sense of the air changing between me & the other person, as if it gets heavier & harder to move through. But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself). But then once I'm alone, I will fantasize about them extensively, feel the longing from that void of being disconnected, & be driven to make more contact sooner than later. There's a lot of self-sabotage.

I also start imagining how burdened & repelled the person would be to know I find them attractive. But I do things to bring attention to myself, while remaining aloof in demeanor. Fails every time.
 

Evo

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I've even had the experience where I feel I've hurt...or confused the person I have, in reality, developed deeply caring feelings for which is so messed-up... "Hey, weren't the last twenty times we hung-out together so fun? I thought so too...like everything just flowed so well between us. Unfortunately, now that I have fallen in love with you...I will involuntarily treat you like you have leprosy."

You make me laugh Starry :laugh: (in a good way)
 

Animal

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Seems like most 4s might relate to this.

I relate to not being able to flirt with anyone I find remotely attractive, although I'd hardly say I flirt well with anyone, period.
But when I have or when I do, it's usually someone I feel comfortable with, and attraction seems to require some tension. So with someone attractive to me, it's like I go mute & feel frozen. The few occasions these really good-looking men attempted to flirt with me, I was a total deer in headlights.
Exactly. That is the paradox isn't it? Once you get comfortable enough to actually talk as equals, some of that tension and mystique is lost.

This also gets exasperated because I obsess over the person at home. I obsess over someone so much when they're not there, that once they are there, I can't possibly be honest. I have nothing to say. Like

Him: "What did you do yesterday?"

If I were to be truthful:
Me: "Wrote part of a shitty song about how you don't love me and never will, worked out so I would look half as good as any of your exes, bought new clothes to express who I REALLY am at this point in my life to make sure you would see, thought about you all night, thought about calling you but ended up on the toilet… three times."

But instead I scramble for something so it's like this:
Me: "Umm.. I um.. I went shopping. I mean.. I'm not really the type of person who shops. I mean. of course I shop. but I don't like shopping. But uhm.. yeah.. and I was practicing piano a bit. …

Him: Oh you play piano? I'd like to hear you sometime.

If I were to be truthful:
Me: "OMG really you're interested in hearing me!!!?? Maybe you'd fall in love with me then.. wait.. NO. I can't play in front of you because I'm not good enough at JUST piano without vocals.. and overall your band is so much more amazing than mine. And even if you think I'm good, you will know what an asshole I am if you hear the lyrics to my songs. The sentiments of your songs are so much more loving and pure, and you would rightfully refuse to get involved with me.."

But instead I say:
Me: Um.. well I..don't really like playing for people..

Him: I thought you were in a band.

Me: :X

etc.

Those thoughts don't pass through my mind in the moment. I'm only writing what I would say if I were totally honest, and why it wouldn't even occur to me to actually say it. But when you can't say the truth, it leaves you with nothing. At least for me since I don't lie or make things up. I don't really have room for thoughts because I just feel frozen, trying to say something I can actually say, or think at all. Your description of the "heavy air" and overwhelm was spot on.


I definitely get a sense of the air changing between me & the other person, as if it gets heavier & harder to move through. But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself). But then once I'm alone, I will fantasize about them extensively, feel the longing from that void of being disconnected, & be driven to make more contact sooner than later. There's a lot of self-sabotage.

I also start imagining how burdened & repelled the person would be to know I find them attractive. But I do things to bring attention to myself, while remaining aloof in demeanor. Fails every time.
That last part… ugh. If I'm attracted to someone, I always feel like I'm taking up his time, annoying him, like he's doing me a favor I don't deserve by responding , like he would much rather be elsewhere and if he is kind enough to tolerate me it's out of politeness. This is why I need him to call first, make all the first moves, etc. I need to know I am wanted, otherwise I automatically presume I am unwanted.
 

Lady_X

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Exactly. That is the paradox isn't it? Once you get comfortable enough to actually talk as equals, some of that tension and mystique is lost.

This also gets exasperated because I obsess over the person at home. I obsess over someone so much when they're not there, that once they are there, I can't possibly be honest. I have nothing to say. Like

Him: "What did you do yesterday?"

If I were to be truthful:
Me: "Wrote part of a shitty song about how you don't love me and never will, worked out so I would look half as good as any of your exes, bought new clothes to express who I REALLY am at this point in my life to make sure you would see, thought about you all night, thought about calling you but ended up on the toilet… three times."

But instead I scramble for something so it's like this:
Me: "Umm.. I um.. I went shopping. I mean.. I'm not really the type of person who shops. I mean. of course I shop. but I don't like shopping. But uhm.. yeah.. and I was practicing piano a bit. …

Him: Oh you play piano? I'd like to hear you sometime.

If I were to be truthful:
Me: "OMG really you're interested in hearing me!!!?? Maybe you'd fall in love with me then.. wait.. NO. I can't play in front of you because I'm not good enough at JUST piano without vocals.. and overall your band is so much more amazing than mine. And even if you think I'm good, you will know what an asshole I am if you hear the lyrics to my songs. The sentiments of your songs are so much more loving and pure, and you would rightfully refuse to get involved with me.."

But instead I say:
Me: Um.. well I..don't really like playing for people..

Him: I thought you were in a band.

Me: :X

etc.

Those thoughts don't pass through my mind in the moment. I'm only writing what I would say if I were totally honest, and why it wouldn't even occur to me to actually say it. But when you can't say the truth, it leaves you with nothing. At least for me since I don't lie or make things up. I don't really have room for thoughts because I just feel frozen, trying to say something I can actually say, or think at all. Your description of the "heavy air" and overwhelm was spot on.



That last part… ugh. If I'm attracted to someone, I always feel like I'm taking up his time, annoying him, like he's doing me a favor I don't deserve by responding , like he would much rather be elsewhere and if he is kind enough to tolerate me it's out of politeness. This is why I need him to call first, make all the first moves, etc. I need to know I am wanted, otherwise I automatically presume I am unwanted.

Oh wow this is completely fascinating to me..why the fuck do you all torture yourselveslike this?
 

Animal

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Oh wow this is completely fascinating to me..why the fuck do you all torture yourselveslike this?

Oddly enough, if given the chance, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I delve deeply into ALL my feelings. I'm not in that kind of state all the time. When I have an obsessive crush I am like that for a period of time, but then if I get close to the person, I can actually get close and achieve more.. 'equanimity.' And compassion as equals rather than putting him on pedestals and feeling below him.

But I would rather do this, and know all of my feelings, than NOT be in touch with my feelings. If this is the price I have to pay to feel my feelings in full, it's worth it to me. It also fuels my art..
 

Galena

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Just because it's difficult for me to march up and talk doesn't mean I don't avidly chase what I want. Make no mistake. :p There are many ways to lure someone in besides having a conversation. Performing locally, wearing the outfits that express who I am, eye contact, body language.
This is a good point, and I relate to it. I was thinking in a black-and-white manner. We all look more alive in color.

I've never just "let someone go" because it was difficult to simply walk up and flirt with them.
If nerves are enough to dissuade me from doing something, the truth beneath that is that I didn't want it badly enough in the first place. Fear is never an acceptable reason to make a choice, whether it's to do something or not to do something. I feel that way not because I'm totally above it - there are times when I realize in hindsight that I avoided something out of shyness, and the feeling isn't unlike discovering that I've pissed myself in public! Timidity is a rage button for me because I know it intimately and so know how cute it ain't - when I see it in others, I want to push them hard into the water so they're forced to swim, but also to be the person who never gives up on them.

Nothing stops me from expressing myself.
That's the most clear and concise summation possible of how I, too, believe I must live. :yes:

I'm not perfect at it...at worst, sometimes I've actually been magnetized by defeat. But maybe I'm selling myself short here. I relate to elements of your story as a lifelong artist myself, if really at a block this one past year (assuming such a thing is more than an illusion of my own creation).
 

Evo

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But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself). But then once I'm alone, I will fantasize about them extensively, feel the longing from that void of being disconnected, & be driven to make more contact sooner than later. There's a lot of self-sabotage.


Wow. This (and only this part^) is exactly what I do. Such a good post.

I am really confused though.

I didn't realize these self provided expectations, or even the feelings of intrusions, were coming from my sp.

If that is true it would make so much sense.
 
B

brainheart

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But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself).

You so perfectly summed up what the sp/sx people I've been involved with have done to me and why I can't possibly be a sp/sx. Thank you.
 

OrangeAppled

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You so perfectly summed up what the sp/sx people I've been involved with have done to me and why I can't possibly be a sp/sx. Thank you.

I don't do this in relationships with people.
I'm talking about initial attraction phases and the shame aspect that makes contact excruciating. It's like reality is threatening the fantasy too much.

Like this Fiona Apple lyric:
Please forgive me for my distance
The pain is evident in my existence
Please forgive me for my distance
The shame is manifest in my resistance
To your love
 

Galena

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What in a lifetime could cause an originally very clearly sx-heavy person to flip into negative expression of the instinct? Not just in a situational or fleeting way, but deeply becoming all but unrecognizable as a type? Initially as an conscious decision, perhaps, but with a real hardening over time that would be prohibitively difficult to break out of?

Of course, the bearer of the instinct would know. Particular experiences of becoming the enemy of one's own instinct, I guess.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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What in a lifetime could cause an originally very clearly sx-heavy person to flip into negative expression of the instinct? Not just in a situational or fleeting way, but deeply becoming all but unrecognizable as a type? Initially as an conscious decision, perhaps, but with a real hardening over time that would be prohibitively difficult to break out of?

Of course, the bearer of the instinct would know. Particular experiences of becoming the enemy of one's own instinct, I guess.
For me it was massive verbal abuse of my desirability and attractiveness over the course of, oh, a decade, combined with my stepfather telling me my body was demeaning and treating me like a monster when I hit puberty. Maybe I'm saying too much about it, but "FOR SCIENCE" and all... That, and me feeling cheated out of a life due to the above.

My only defense was to deny I ever needed any of that stuff, and thus it became ingrained. I turn 31 tomorrow, and I can't imagine it will ever get any better, so... "Kids, this is why you refrain from making remarks about how ugly your peers are." "Parents, please treat your children with respect."
 

lue

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What in a lifetime could cause an originally very clearly sx-heavy person to flip into negative expression of the instinct? Not just in a situational or fleeting way, but deeply becoming all but unrecognizable as a type? Initially as an conscious decision, perhaps, but with a real hardening over time that would be prohibitively difficult to break out of?

Of course, the bearer of the instinct would know. Particular experiences of becoming the enemy of one's own instinct, I guess.

For me, I went through/am going through a rough time (no details), and it caused a shift. I went from knowing that I'm attractive (not OMG I'm absolutely gorgeous, but cute) to knowing that I'm irredeemably unattractive, among other things. It's not a secure vs insecure thing, it's a knowing (hard to explain).

For me, there was no conscious decision, it just sort of happened.
 
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