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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ummm... I'm not sure how therapeutic this imagery will be but...okay haha.


    Giving it a second look: it might actually be traumatizing... :P

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyonce View Post
    Hmm, I can see how her family/neighbors/community could be condemned by association with her, but then that goes back to the problem that she shouldn't really be labeled as "amoral" for what she decides to do with her body. Society as a whole is a broader topic I really don't have the energy to talk about.
    Consider that it might not just be that they are condemned by their association with her, but that they are concerned for her well-being. Believe it or not, however much you might be tempted to relativize things, most women don't get into the sex industry because of how well things are going for them, or how great of upbringings they had. It's usually a lot darker than that. And being in the sex industry doesn't necessarily make things any better.

  3. #33
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyonce View Post
    Am I really so predictable? haha
    No, you misunderstood I believe which...I swear unrelated to you specifically (anyone but Zarathustra)...I imagined I would be. I'm not judging the industry, those who work in the industry, consumers of the industry...no one is being blamed or frowned upon by me.

    I was just wondering how things might be different...if at all...if we had the time and resources to take care of ourselves properly as well as each other. Do you understand? I wonder how people might make different choices with more nurturing and opportunities.

  4. #34
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Consider that it might not just be that they are condemned by their association with her, but that they are concerned for her well-being. Believe it or not, however much you might be tempted to relativize things, most women don't get into the sex industry because of how well things are going for them, or how great of upbringings they had. It's usually a lot darker than that. And being in the sex industry doesn't necessarily make things any better.
    Isn't that all the more reason to not condemn her? In that case she'd need someone to help pull her out of the rut she's stuck in, not someone calling her amoral.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyonce View Post
    Isn't that all the more reason to not condemn her? In that case she'd need someone to help pull her out of the rut she's stuck in, not someone calling her amoral.
    Well, if you look back, what I contended was whether her actions, as you stated, did not affect anyone else.

    I didn't say anything about whether or not she was immoral.

    In the kind of case I outlined, tho, I think your sentiment holds a lot of truth.

  6. #36
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    I'm an ENFP male, and I definetely think of sex as something carnal and "basic instinct" rather than spiritual and holy.

    I would agree that ESFP's more often have an exuberant sexuality and are probably more focused on the purely physical aspect of sex.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that. In fact, if any attitude regarding sex has puzzled me, it's the "let's make slow love on a bed of rose petals until we achieve unity with the cosmos" thing.

    I've met some animalistic ENFP's, though. One ENFP chick I knew was very vocal about the dissatisfaction she had with her boyfriend who insisted on making love to her, rather than just fuck her.

    @Zarathustra, what are your observations on the differences between ENFP's and ESFP's attitudes on sex?

    -

    Regarding porn... I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. But with all the scumbags and broken individuals involved in it, the porn industry is a filthy business in more ways than one.

  7. #37
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsung View Post
    I'm an ENFP male, and I definetely think of sex as something carnal and "basic instinct" rather than spiritual and holy.

    I would agree that ESFP's more often have an exuberant sexuality and are probably more focused on the purely physical aspect of sex.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that. In fact, if any attitude regarding sex has puzzled me, it's the "let's make slow love on a bed of rose petals until we achieve unity with the cosmos" thing.

    I've met some animalistic ENFP's, though. One ENFP chick I knew was very vocal about the dissatisfaction she had with her boyfriend who insisted on making love to her, rather than just fuck her.

    @Zarathustra, what are your observations on the differences between ENFP's and ESFP's attitudes on sex?

    -

    Regarding porn... I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. But with all the scumbags and broken individuals involved in it, the porn industry is a filthy business in more ways than one.
    could be a male thing, but could it also be that 8-wing? i feel like the differences between 7w6 and 7w8 kind of support that.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    could be a male thing, but could it also be that 8-wing? i feel like the differences between 7w6 and 7w8 kind of support that.
    I could definetely see both as valid explanations. In fact, I think the possibility that they're working in conjunction is even stronger.
    The 6 wing makes for a pure head type, so maybe they're more likely to be less anchored in their bodies and have a "fantastical" view of sex, emphasizing mental connection more than the dirty, animalistic parts?

    If I'm correct in assuming @AzulEyes is female, all three of you ENFP's who consider sex to be more sacred are female and 7w6. Although @Beyonce didn't explicitly state what attitude he holds, I'm guessing he's leaning more towards my view on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) @Starry's input would be appreciated as well.

    I suspect the ENFP girl I knew was like a 6w7 or 2w3 (sx) or something. She's one of those women who's timid and insecure on the surface, but just beneath it is a warrior amazon who knows exactly what she wants. And she definetely was very assertive about her desire to just be taken, and thought of sex as something earthy and carnal. Other than that, she was your typical scatterbrained, bizarre, head-in-the-clouds ENFP.

  9. #39
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    @unsung

    My observations are basically what you've been pointing to: ESFPs are far more carnal and into the purely physical side of sex (let's call it "sex as sport") n whereas ENFPs tend to be far more spiritual about sex, and almost have a sort of disdain for the purely physical side of sex. I'm not saying it lines up 1:1, but I've seen too many corroborating points of evidence to not say it's a tendency.

    That being said, I have seen ENFPs who were more into the purely physical side of sex, one was an 8, and I believe the other was a 2. In part because of this different orientation towards sex than I see in most other ENFPs, I still hold out that either one might have been an ESFP. But I think they both were indeed ENFPs.

    I think the male vs female divide is considerable. As they say: "men are visual creatures". I just had an ENFP buddy of mine in town, and he definitely talks of sex in a typical "man way". At the same time, tho, he's very physically awkward, so, well, at least in the past (less so now, I suppose), the idea of him actually sexually satisfying/ravishing a woman seemed... unlikely.

    Another thing to note: all the ENFPs who have expressed this sentiment are sx 7s, and all the theorists say that that subtype romanticize sex and relationships to such a significant degree, it's like they look to the heavens when it comes to romance, and anything less than that ideal is not fully satisfying. As such, of the three subtypes of 7, they are actually considered the least sexual (with sp 7s taking that mantle).

  10. #40
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Another thing to note: all the ENFPs who have expressed this sentiment are sx 7s, and all the theorists say that that subtype romanticize sex and relationships to such a significant degree, it's like they look to the heavens when it comes to romance, and anything less than that ideal is not fully satisfying. As such, of the three subtypes of 7, they are actually considered the least sexual (with sp 7s taking that mantle).
    so sx 7s are the least sexual 7s?

    i see what you mean about the spiritualization of sex, and do identify with that feeling. i don't know if that makes us less sexual though. that kind of intimacy and full expression is a huge priority of mine, and results in me feeling like a very sexual person. just because it's not carnal sexuality, doesn't mean it's not sexuality. i would think that other variants would have less of a focus on it (although i can see the sp angle, i still question how much comparative weight this particular need has in the sp sphere).
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

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