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  1. #131
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Seems like most 4s might relate to this.

    I relate to not being able to flirt with anyone I find remotely attractive, although I'd hardly say I flirt well with anyone, period.
    But when I have or when I do, it's usually someone I feel comfortable with, and attraction seems to require some tension. So with someone attractive to me, it's like I go mute & feel frozen. The few occasions these really good-looking men attempted to flirt with me, I was a total deer in headlights.
    Exactly. That is the paradox isn't it? Once you get comfortable enough to actually talk as equals, some of that tension and mystique is lost.

    This also gets exasperated because I obsess over the person at home. I obsess over someone so much when they're not there, that once they are there, I can't possibly be honest. I have nothing to say. Like

    Him: "What did you do yesterday?"

    If I were to be truthful:
    Me: "Wrote part of a shitty song about how you don't love me and never will, worked out so I would look half as good as any of your exes, bought new clothes to express who I REALLY am at this point in my life to make sure you would see, thought about you all night, thought about calling you but ended up on the toilet… three times."

    But instead I scramble for something so it's like this:
    Me: "Umm.. I um.. I went shopping. I mean.. I'm not really the type of person who shops. I mean. of course I shop. but I don't like shopping. But uhm.. yeah.. and I was practicing piano a bit. …

    Him: Oh you play piano? I'd like to hear you sometime.

    If I were to be truthful:
    Me: "OMG really you're interested in hearing me!!!?? Maybe you'd fall in love with me then.. wait.. NO. I can't play in front of you because I'm not good enough at JUST piano without vocals.. and overall your band is so much more amazing than mine. And even if you think I'm good, you will know what an asshole I am if you hear the lyrics to my songs. The sentiments of your songs are so much more loving and pure, and you would rightfully refuse to get involved with me.."

    But instead I say:
    Me: Um.. well I..don't really like playing for people..

    Him: I thought you were in a band.

    Me: :X

    etc.

    Those thoughts don't pass through my mind in the moment. I'm only writing what I would say if I were totally honest, and why it wouldn't even occur to me to actually say it. But when you can't say the truth, it leaves you with nothing. At least for me since I don't lie or make things up. I don't really have room for thoughts because I just feel frozen, trying to say something I can actually say, or think at all. Your description of the "heavy air" and overwhelm was spot on.


    I definitely get a sense of the air changing between me & the other person, as if it gets heavier & harder to move through. But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself). But then once I'm alone, I will fantasize about them extensively, feel the longing from that void of being disconnected, & be driven to make more contact sooner than later. There's a lot of self-sabotage.

    I also start imagining how burdened & repelled the person would be to know I find them attractive. But I do things to bring attention to myself, while remaining aloof in demeanor. Fails every time.
    That last part… ugh. If I'm attracted to someone, I always feel like I'm taking up his time, annoying him, like he's doing me a favor I don't deserve by responding , like he would much rather be elsewhere and if he is kind enough to tolerate me it's out of politeness. This is why I need him to call first, make all the first moves, etc. I need to know I am wanted, otherwise I automatically presume I am unwanted.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  2. #132
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Exactly. That is the paradox isn't it? Once you get comfortable enough to actually talk as equals, some of that tension and mystique is lost.

    This also gets exasperated because I obsess over the person at home. I obsess over someone so much when they're not there, that once they are there, I can't possibly be honest. I have nothing to say. Like

    Him: "What did you do yesterday?"

    If I were to be truthful:
    Me: "Wrote part of a shitty song about how you don't love me and never will, worked out so I would look half as good as any of your exes, bought new clothes to express who I REALLY am at this point in my life to make sure you would see, thought about you all night, thought about calling you but ended up on the toilet… three times."

    But instead I scramble for something so it's like this:
    Me: "Umm.. I um.. I went shopping. I mean.. I'm not really the type of person who shops. I mean. of course I shop. but I don't like shopping. But uhm.. yeah.. and I was practicing piano a bit. …

    Him: Oh you play piano? I'd like to hear you sometime.

    If I were to be truthful:
    Me: "OMG really you're interested in hearing me!!!?? Maybe you'd fall in love with me then.. wait.. NO. I can't play in front of you because I'm not good enough at JUST piano without vocals.. and overall your band is so much more amazing than mine. And even if you think I'm good, you will know what an asshole I am if you hear the lyrics to my songs. The sentiments of your songs are so much more loving and pure, and you would rightfully refuse to get involved with me.."

    But instead I say:
    Me: Um.. well I..don't really like playing for people..

    Him: I thought you were in a band.

    Me: :X

    etc.

    Those thoughts don't pass through my mind in the moment. I'm only writing what I would say if I were totally honest, and why it wouldn't even occur to me to actually say it. But when you can't say the truth, it leaves you with nothing. At least for me since I don't lie or make things up. I don't really have room for thoughts because I just feel frozen, trying to say something I can actually say, or think at all. Your description of the "heavy air" and overwhelm was spot on.



    That last part… ugh. If I'm attracted to someone, I always feel like I'm taking up his time, annoying him, like he's doing me a favor I don't deserve by responding , like he would much rather be elsewhere and if he is kind enough to tolerate me it's out of politeness. This is why I need him to call first, make all the first moves, etc. I need to know I am wanted, otherwise I automatically presume I am unwanted.
    Oh wow this is completely fascinating to me..why the fuck do you all torture yourselveslike this?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #133
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    Oh wow this is completely fascinating to me..why the fuck do you all torture yourselveslike this?
    Oddly enough, if given the chance, I wouldn't have it any other way.

    I delve deeply into ALL my feelings. I'm not in that kind of state all the time. When I have an obsessive crush I am like that for a period of time, but then if I get close to the person, I can actually get close and achieve more.. 'equanimity.' And compassion as equals rather than putting him on pedestals and feeling below him.

    But I would rather do this, and know all of my feelings, than NOT be in touch with my feelings. If this is the price I have to pay to feel my feelings in full, it's worth it to me. It also fuels my art..
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  4. #134
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Just because it's difficult for me to march up and talk doesn't mean I don't avidly chase what I want. Make no mistake. :P There are many ways to lure someone in besides having a conversation. Performing locally, wearing the outfits that express who I am, eye contact, body language.
    This is a good point, and I relate to it. I was thinking in a black-and-white manner. We all look more alive in color.

    I've never just "let someone go" because it was difficult to simply walk up and flirt with them.
    If nerves are enough to dissuade me from doing something, the truth beneath that is that I didn't want it badly enough in the first place. Fear is never an acceptable reason to make a choice, whether it's to do something or not to do something. I feel that way not because I'm totally above it - there are times when I realize in hindsight that I avoided something out of shyness, and the feeling isn't unlike discovering that I've pissed myself in public! Timidity is a rage button for me because I know it intimately and so know how cute it ain't - when I see it in others, I want to push them hard into the water so they're forced to swim, but also to be the person who never gives up on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Nothing stops me from expressing myself.
    That's the most clear and concise summation possible of how I, too, believe I must live.

    I'm not perfect at it...at worst, sometimes I've actually been magnetized by defeat. But maybe I'm selling myself short here. I relate to elements of your story as a lifelong artist myself, if really at a block this one past year (assuming such a thing is more than an illusion of my own creation).
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  5. #135
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself). But then once I'm alone, I will fantasize about them extensively, feel the longing from that void of being disconnected, & be driven to make more contact sooner than later. There's a lot of self-sabotage.

    Wow. This (and only this part^) is exactly what I do. Such a good post.

    I am really confused though.

    I didn't realize these self provided expectations, or even the feelings of intrusions, were coming from my sp.

    If that is true it would make so much sense.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  6. #136
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    But I feel a distinct sp slant, in that I want to run from someone I find attractive for a sense of relief, to not feel "intruded" upon by their existence, or to not feel overwhelmed with the expectations I cannot meet (ones I've often set for myself).
    You so perfectly summed up what the sp/sx people I've been involved with have done to me and why I can't possibly be a sp/sx. Thank you.

  7. #137
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    You so perfectly summed up what the sp/sx people I've been involved with have done to me and why I can't possibly be a sp/sx. Thank you.
    I don't do this in relationships with people.
    I'm talking about initial attraction phases and the shame aspect that makes contact excruciating. It's like reality is threatening the fantasy too much.

    Like this Fiona Apple lyric:
    Please forgive me for my distance
    The pain is evident in my existence
    Please forgive me for my distance
    The shame is manifest in my resistance
    To your love
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #138
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    What in a lifetime could cause an originally very clearly sx-heavy person to flip into negative expression of the instinct? Not just in a situational or fleeting way, but deeply becoming all but unrecognizable as a type? Initially as an conscious decision, perhaps, but with a real hardening over time that would be prohibitively difficult to break out of?

    Of course, the bearer of the instinct would know. Particular experiences of becoming the enemy of one's own instinct, I guess.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  9. #139
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    What in a lifetime could cause an originally very clearly sx-heavy person to flip into negative expression of the instinct? Not just in a situational or fleeting way, but deeply becoming all but unrecognizable as a type? Initially as an conscious decision, perhaps, but with a real hardening over time that would be prohibitively difficult to break out of?

    Of course, the bearer of the instinct would know. Particular experiences of becoming the enemy of one's own instinct, I guess.
    For me it was massive verbal abuse of my desirability and attractiveness over the course of, oh, a decade, combined with my stepfather telling me my body was demeaning and treating me like a monster when I hit puberty. Maybe I'm saying too much about it, but "FOR SCIENCE" and all... That, and me feeling cheated out of a life due to the above.

    My only defense was to deny I ever needed any of that stuff, and thus it became ingrained. I turn 31 tomorrow, and I can't imagine it will ever get any better, so... "Kids, this is why you refrain from making remarks about how ugly your peers are." "Parents, please treat your children with respect."

  10. #140
    Senior Member lue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    What in a lifetime could cause an originally very clearly sx-heavy person to flip into negative expression of the instinct? Not just in a situational or fleeting way, but deeply becoming all but unrecognizable as a type? Initially as an conscious decision, perhaps, but with a real hardening over time that would be prohibitively difficult to break out of?

    Of course, the bearer of the instinct would know. Particular experiences of becoming the enemy of one's own instinct, I guess.
    For me, I went through/am going through a rough time (no details), and it caused a shift. I went from knowing that I'm attractive (not OMG I'm absolutely gorgeous, but cute) to knowing that I'm irredeemably unattractive, among other things. It's not a secure vs insecure thing, it's a knowing (hard to explain).

    For me, there was no conscious decision, it just sort of happened.

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