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  1. #41
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That line in particular resonates. From interacting with people I think are sp doms here on the forum, they all seem actually content with maintaining that control over environment and work at opening it up only because in some way they realize it is good for them in the long run to do so..

    The reality of my life is that I'm really really good at being alone and doing things on my own. In fact, I even get flack from one ENTJ female IRL because "I never come to events or stop to say hi" (and I think she's more an SO type), and it's like I want to do it, but I don't feel like the relationships there are SX quality, they're just SO social engagements and networking sessions and in that context they exhaust me and don't serve the greater purpose so I just hang out at home a lot. But I am not HAPPY being that way. I feel a lot of loneliness even if I function perfectly fine on my own. If I had a choice, I'd rather be with someone I love and have an amazing connection to.
    Gosh, pretty much every word of this. If I'm going to hang out with people, I usually want to be really intimate with them. Otherwise who gives a shit? I'd rather stay home alone.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, pretty much every word of this. If I'm going to hang out with people, I usually want to be really intimate with them. Otherwise who gives a shit? I'd rather stay home alone.
    Yup.

    The only thing is, sometimes you have to give yourself time to warm up to other people -- the connection is not instant. So by hanging out, you could possibly find some people you really want to be intimate with.

    Or that's what they tell me.

    You practically have to set my house on fire to get me out of it, though.

  3. #43
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yup.

    The only thing is, sometimes you have to give yourself time to warm up to other people -- the connection is not instant. So by hanging out, you could possibly find some people you really want to be intimate with.

    Or that's what they tell me.

    You practically have to set my house on fire to get me out of it, though.
    Yeah, this is true. Especially if there's a shared activity involved. Having an activity so it's not just unstructured hanging out is much more amenable to me- that way, even if I don't enjoy the company I can still enjoy the activity, and the activity gives me some parameters for interaction which I need because otherwise I just try to go too deep too fast and end up injuring their friendship cervix.

    I've done it a few times- I joined a roller derby team because I was really really ridiculously lonely and depressed (I have a pretty awesome spouse but I don't think it's healthy to get all your emotional needs met by your spouse- I didn't want him to start feeling smothered) and that gave me else to talk about with the new people, and something to focus on for myself that sort of slowed down my natural tendency to TALK ABOUT ALL THE THINGS RIGHT AWAY. I made a few nice good deep friends that way.

  4. #44
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The reality of my life is that I'm really really good at being alone and doing things on my own. In fact, I even get flack from one ENTJ female IRL because "I never come to events or stop to say hi" (and I think she's more an SO type), and it's like I want to do it, but I don't feel like the relationships there are SX quality, they're just SO social engagements and networking sessions and in that context they exhaust me and don't serve the greater purpose so I just hang out at home a lot. But I am not HAPPY being that way. I feel a lot of loneliness even if I function perfectly fine on my own. If I had a choice, I'd rather be with someone I love and have an amazing connection to.

    So there is this weird dance between really wanting to be intimate with people and just finding it easier to keep a predictable pattern in place to minimize energy resources.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, pretty much every word of this. If I'm going to hang out with people, I usually want to be really intimate with them. Otherwise who gives a shit? I'd rather stay home alone.
    These things times a million. I just had a conversation this weekend along these lines. I wanted to go out, there were people I could call to do so, but nary a one of them constituted someone that made me feel that pull. My extroversion has caused me to go against that feeling sometimes, and about halfway through the outing I end up feeling more alone (and not to mention annoyed) than if I'd just stayed home.

    It's hard to define what that thing is exactly. There are a very select group of people whom I just merge with and can be with them 24/7, then there are people I just don't. My best guess on how this ties back to being an sp-second is that, on the one hand, there is a sort of fastidiousness with one's resources, especially one's time and energy. I simply don't have much to say to people who I can sense aren't on the level.

    On the other, there's something special about shared space that I'm having trouble articulating. It's like you let down the wall, and there's a sense of comfortable openness. I'm not 100% sure what I'm getting at except to say that I associate the self-preservation instinct with walls and barriers. I think what we've been discussing regarding the need for emotional self-restraint is tied up in that--it's the push. When you are with someone where there's connection it's like you're including them on your island, and offering up all those resources you've accumulated to their benefit. Mi casa es su casa, which we make la nuestra.

    There's a promiscuity to the sx/so approach that kinda baffles me. I think whereas the sx pit causes us to want to go deeper, wanting to know someone totally (consuming and being consumed), their's pushes them outward. Everything's so big and luminous...I dunno. Suggesting the difference is quantity over quality is more dismissive than I wanna go, but it's an interesting contrast that I'd be interested in getting your take on. I think for all that the Social instinct is a blindspot for us, it's one we know we've got, which is where I think the fear of loss of control stems from. It's a combination of a) the notion that the things we need can be provided through our community not being innate, so we always assume we've gotta go it alone or perish. And b) past experiences of social rejection causing us to view the community as "Other". We don't feel ourselves to be a part of it, creating distrust, leading to a bunker mentality where all interactions take place in the context of potentially hostile territory. I dunno. These are elements of the push-pull without either or any of the ideas being the whole story. I'm wondering now, though, if our mutual love for horror films is 'cause we identify with the monsters...



    Don't mean to distract from the limerence topic, though....
    I think you've elevated it, actually.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #45
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yeah, this is true. Especially if there's a shared activity involved. Having an activity so it's not just unstructured hanging out is much more amenable to me- that way, even if I don't enjoy the company I can still enjoy the activity, and the activity gives me some parameters for interaction which I need because otherwise I just try to go too deep too fast and end up injuring their friendship cervix.
    Lol, ouch.

    I know I used to plunge in too far, too fast... I've backed way off nowadays. But then I just tend to drift or people possibly think I don't care.

    I too find far more success in finding "activities" and getting to know people by being involved while at the same time having something to focus on than just the relationships. I've had a lot of happiness with my gaming groups, although those relationships don't go as deep as I wish despite some efforts of my part.

    I've done it a few times- I joined a roller derby team because I was really really ridiculously lonely and depressed (I have a pretty awesome spouse but I don't think it's healthy to get all your emotional needs met by your spouse- I didn't want him to start feeling smothered)
    I agree, that is a heavy load for the other spouse to deal with. I have had it happen with friends too, where a particular friend would expect me to meet her needs; going anywhere with her was such a drag because she had trouble taking care of herself at social gatherings and I felt like I always had to be her security blanket.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Lol, ouch.

    I know I used to plunge in too far, too fast... I've backed way off nowadays. But then I just tend to drift or people possibly think I don't care.

    I too find far more success in finding "activities" and getting to know people by being involved while at the same time having something to focus on than just the relationships. I've had a lot of happiness with my gaming groups, although those relationships don't go as deep as I wish despite some efforts of my part.



    I agree, that is a heavy load for the other spouse to deal with. I have had it happen with friends too, where a particular friend would expect me to meet her needs; going anywhere with her was such a drag because she had trouble taking care of herself at social gatherings and I felt like I always had to be her security blanket.
    Exactly- to all of it. I've maybe overcorrected a little on the too far, too fast thing, to the point that I don't initiate anything, hardly ever, and don't ever ask personal questions until I know the other person is comfortable with me, blah blah blah.

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    These things times a million. I just had a conversation this weekend along these lines. I wanted to go out, there were people I could call to do so, but nary a one of them constituted someone that made me feel that pull. My extroversion has caused me to go against that feeling sometimes, and about halfway through the outing I end up feeling more alone (and not to mention annoyed) than if I'd just stayed home.
    Yes. I've gone to those gatherings in the past, so it's not like I don't know what I'll be getting there -- unless someone completely new just happened to show up, and I just happen to "click" with them, and they happen to actually live nearby...

    So I'd drive home feeling a low-key glad that I went and got to see people, but also a kind of pervasive gentle sadness that it wasn't more than what it was... and feeling drained to boot.

    The only few people I've ever really gotten close to merging with, I've essentially lost. I don't know if I have it in me to keep that search up. Not being fatalistic, but ... I just don't know if I'll ever find it again.

    It's hard to define what that thing is exactly. There are a very select group of people whom I just merge with and can be with them 24/7, then there are people I just don't. My best guess on how this ties back to being an sp-second is that, on the one hand, there is a sort of fastidiousness with one's resources, especially one's time and energy. I simply don't have much to say to people who I can sense aren't on the level.
    yes. And I feel bad because more sensory, less-SX'y folks will say, "Oh, you just have to try harder to make a connection." I don't bother to explain anymore, they don't understand about how it works. I can tell very quickly whether it's worth my time. I've barely been on any dates in the last few years; the last guy, I met him twice ("dates" but it was really a hiking path and then a bookstore), and we had a good time talking, but the "click" wasn't there at all. He was actually very articulate in some areas and I liked talking to him -- smart and knowledgeable -- but that was all. Nothing wrong with him, but despite the nice conversation, it just drained me and I couldn't feel a connection. Just not worth trying to justify it anymore, I just need to make a decision and then move on.

    On the other, there's something special about shared space that I'm having trouble articulating. It's like you let down the wall, and there's a sense of comfortable openness. I'm not 100% sure what I'm getting at except to say that I associate the self-preservation instinct with walls and barriers. I think what we've been discussing regarding the need for emotional self-restraint is tied up in that--it's the push. When you are with someone where there's connection it's like you're including them on your island, and offering up all those resources you've accumulated to their benefit. Mi casa es su casa, which we make la nuestra.
    I know. People who get into that space are part of me and I share everything with them, all I have is theirs. Books, food, computer resources, I drop any structured veneer and am just me. We're part of an identity together, even if I'm still aware of myself there; but you get all of me, not just portions, and it's shared space.

    I will admit that if you are not part of my shared space and you start tapping into my carefully planned and measured resources (I know how much food I have, how much drink I have, blah blah blah), inside I will start to get really irritated. It's just that I didn't plan to cache supplies for you! I need some warning.

    There's a promiscuity to the sx/so approach that kinda baffles me. I think whereas the sx pit causes us to want to go deeper, wanting to know someone totally (consuming and being consumed), their's pushes them outward. Everything's so big and luminous...I dunno. Suggesting the difference is quantity over quality is more dismissive than I wanna go, but it's an interesting contrast that I'd be interested in getting your take on.
    Well, I think I understand SO variants the least, tbh. And am not sure if I've met an sx/so IRL. What I don't understand about SO is not why it wants to relate (I get that as an SX), I don't understand why it STOPS relating at a certain point if you get my drift and can stay broader vs deeper. I don't get that at all -- why would anyone want to just stop there? Lol.

    I think for all that the Social instinct is a blindspot for us, it's one we know we've got, which is where I think the fear of loss of control stems from. It's a combination of a) the notion that the things we need can be provided through our community not being innate, so we always assume we've gotta go it alone or perish. And b) past experiences of social rejection causing us to view the community as "Other".
    Well in that sense, while I've had tastes of "community," it has never really provided much for me, so no, I don't trust the loose connection there. To me it feels very much like throwing yourself off a cliff, to trust that if I was in trouble the "community" would somehow step in and catch me. I think I've noted before that no matter how friendly I am with people, unless it's a deep resonating relationship, I don't feel like I truly belong or that I'm part of the group. That's been pretty constant throughout my life and I doubt it will change now.

    We don't feel ourselves to be a part of it, creating distrust, leading to a bunker mentality where all interactions take place in the context of potentially hostile territory. I dunno.
    Well, for me not necessarily hostile (I don't think there are many who are out specifically to hurt or fleece me), but... indifferent. The world is indifferent. It might not mean me harm, but it's not looking out for me either. I can't depend on it. I can only depend either on myself or on specific individuals I have vetted and have connection with.

    These are elements of the push-pull without either or any of the ideas being the whole story. I'm wondering now, though, if our mutual love for horror films is 'cause we identify with the monsters...
    I can't find the clip now, but immediately "Super 8" sprang to mind, with Joe being held by the alien and saying, "Bad things happen, but you can still live."

    I do identify with outsiders, and the lone explorers who are brave enough to go into dark places, sometimes alone. I'm not as openly dogmatic as Jodie Foster in "Contact" or sound so zealous, but that might as well have been me stepping into the ship, with all the same anxiety, compulsive curiosity, loneliness, humanitarism, and dedication to knowledge.

    I think you've elevated it, actually.
    lol. It feels like I changed the topic a bit, but at least it is a good discussion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Walk it off, kid. You'll live.
    Given that you're the one who mocked an innocent person sharing an honest perspective, I find that remark highly ironic.

  9. #49
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Given that you're the one who mocked an innocent person sharing an honest perspective, I find that remark highly ironic.
    If you're so disturbed by the incident, report it. I just don't care about the whinings of some hyper sensitive NF that I neither know nor have cause to give two shits about.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #50
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    My experience is that when it hits me, it hits me really hard and turns me into a complete idiot. The vast majority of my relationships with women have been limirent-unrequited relationships which why the only one that actually did play out (my ex) was one of the reasons that pulled me into the relationship for me.

    Actually dating someone I was limerent towards was one of the most powerful and compelling connections and feelings I've ever had. I think everyone should be so lucky as to be able to fall in love with your limerent object
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

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