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  1. #31
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Probably rude of you then.
    Walk it off, kid. You'll live.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  2. #32
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    My second crush was at age 9 and I loved him for a couple of years. We met at a school I visited for two weeks, never spoke a word, but we always grinned at each other and he helped me play games on the playground.

    I feel strong attraction to one person at a time and it can go on for years unreciprocated. There are three main triggers: they are unique in the world, I admire their mind, I trust their kindness.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I think limerence is a human biological phenomenon, not a sx-first phenomenon. I think you're confusing "infatuation" with the sx instinct here, and that's going to throw off prospective typees who are teenagers and in love with someone, to be perfectly honest.

    So, no I don't see what you're talking about. See my other entries for more details.
    In general, springboarding off this, I am wondering how many people who posted in this thread and think they have "limerence" for someone actually read the Wiki page or more extensive reading, to really grasp what this topic is about.

    I've spent about ten minutes on the wiki and probably need to devote another 30-60 minutes to it to really try to grasp the concept. The problem is not with its complexity, because I don't consider the idea to be complex, the problem is in clarifying exactly what limerence actually is in comparison to other forms of attachment, as much of the stuff mentioned on that page is not clearly distinct and/or can apply as well to other forums of attachment.

    I feel like I do when I've walked into one of those threads where people are claiming to have personality disorders just because they have a few tendencies of a particular disorder, not realizing how bad-ass nasty and extreme those disorders actually are to the degree of leaving someone non-functioning.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In general, springboarding off this, I am wondering how many people who posted in this thread and think they have "limerence" for someone actually read the Wiki page or more extensive reading, to really grasp what this topic is about.

    I've spent about ten minutes on the wiki and probably need to devote another 30-60 minutes to it to really try to grasp the concept. The problem is not with its complexity, because I don't consider the idea to be complex, the problem is in clarifying exactly what limerence actually is in comparison to other forms of attachment, as much of the stuff mentioned on that page is not clearly distinct and/or can apply as well to other forums of attachment.

    I feel like I do when I've walked into one of those threads where people are claiming to have personality disorders just because they have a few tendencies of a particular disorder, not realizing how bad-ass nasty and extreme those disorders actually are to the degree of leaving someone non-functioning.
    One thing I do in these threads is to just describe some tendency I have without assuming it fits the actual definition. I think you are right that most labels refer to something more extreme. I should be more careful myself because I forget that other people think with more specificity than I do.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #35
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In general, springboarding off this, I am wondering how many people who posted in this thread and think they have "limerence" for someone actually read the Wiki page or more extensive reading, to really grasp what this topic is about.

    I've spent about ten minutes on the wiki and probably need to devote another 30-60 minutes to it to really try to grasp the concept. The problem is not with its complexity, because I don't consider the idea to be complex, the problem is in clarifying exactly what limerence actually is in comparison to other forms of attachment, as much of the stuff mentioned on that page is not clearly distinct and/or can apply as well to other forums of attachment.

    I feel like I do when I've walked into one of those threads where people are claiming to have personality disorders just because they have a few tendencies of a particular disorder, not realizing how bad-ass nasty and extreme those disorders actually are to the degree of leaving someone non-functioning.
    This is an excellent point, and as the OP I suppose I have a certain amount of responsibility for the definitional murkiness.

    For as long as I can remember, I've struggled with the intensity of my attractions to other people. "Crushes" for me are not a matter of simple butterflies in the stomach, but are obsessions that have to be managed carefully to prevent them from becoming something socially unacceptable. Limerence is not pleasant, and I think in the quote from the wiki article I included they make allusion to the relationship between the experience of it and OCD symptoms. While they last, the attractions I have become all-consuming, and definitely meet the criteria of "obsessive" and "disruptive" to my usual thought patterns. It's usually triggered by the feeling of genuine connection. Some sort of uncommon spark between myself and the other person. It lasts however long it lasts.

    To be fair to myself, I usually don't let things get too out of hand. No one's ever come home to a boiled pet rabbit or anything. But I constantly have to do these reality checks with myself to make sure I don't get too far from the shore in terms of what's going on in my head, versus what's actually happening in reality.

    As I've gotten older and am more accustomed to how intense these feelings can be, I've developed a certain objectivity about my own subjectivity, as it were. I know that despite the fact that I'm in the grip of these emotions, they're not real. Well, that's not exactly accurate. The feelings are real, I have to honor them lest they become even more unruly, but ultimately I have control over them. They'll eventually pass and I can get on with my life. It can be excruciating, though, when you can't control the amount of mental bandwidth that's going to the limerence object, though. When something that's largely no more than the product of your imagination animates you as much as anything else.

    I suppose I could try to make this into more than what it is--that it's some sort of "exquisite anguish" or get into some pseudo-metaphysical explanation of it's underpinnings--but the fact of the matter is that it's an illness. It's just that simple and unsexy. I have no control over when it will crop up, or how long I'll be subject to it. It's why I found it so compelling when @Z Buck McFate posted that thread a little while ago concerning the dominant instinctual variant as essentially the most complexed or wounded of the variants, because it very much speaks to my relationship with being an sx-dom. If I could be anything, I'd be sp-first, because if I had to fixate on something to this extent, then I'd rather it be something practical and needful. Rather than just stupid, fucking boys.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    For as long as I can remember, I've struggled with the intensity of my attractions to other people. "Crushes" for me are not a matter of simple butterflies in the stomach, but are obsessions that have to be managed carefully to prevent them from becoming something socially unacceptable. Limerence is not pleasant, and I think in the quote from the wiki article I included they make allusion to the relationship between the experience of it and OCD symptoms. While they last, the attractions I have become all-consuming, and definitely meet the criteria of "obsessive" and "disruptive" to my usual thought patterns. It's usually triggered by the feeling of genuine connection. Some sort of uncommon spark between myself and the other person. It lasts however long it lasts.

    To be fair to myself, I usually don't let things get too out of hand. No one's ever come home to a boiled pet rabbit or anything. But I constantly have to do these reality checks with myself to make sure I don't get too far from the shore in terms of what's going on in my head, versus what's actually happening in reality.
    I appreciate you detailing this more deeply, especially because I feel like you'll "get it" when I describe my own intensities here.

    To be honest, I'm not sure where I fall. Some people either seem to not have that stark intensity of feeling, or they just button down things naturally and aren't even aware of desires; but I feel like neither describes me well even if on the surface it all looks the same. I've consciously realized a number of times in the last five years that I both seem to feel things inside excrutiatingly, while on the surface and in my behavior I maintain a kind of "hands off / non-imposing" presence where I just never act on them.

    I can meet someone and "like them" intensely very very quickly. Not necessarily even a romantic like (in fact, it's not really about physical sex), but an intimate kind of like where I want to know them in all their depth and complexity and would share really intense things about myself. At the same time, I am very very aware of boundaries and not wanting someone else to feel uncomfortable, so often I'll never say much in that regard or even actively "push" to get in there. I'll play around the edges and see if they seem amenable to something deeper and go with it, and if they seem resistant I will never push it but let it go. Yet still feel an ache that I'll never tell them about.

    I will still think about them often and wonder about them, even if I act aloof on the surface. And when such people react to me with paranoia or distrust for whatever reason (even while I've been so cautious about boundaries), it wounds me pretty deeply and I don't know if I ever get over it. Again, the funny thing is, I'll never really tell them or try to hold it against them. I just try to keep an even keel about it. I don't want to violate anyone or intrude where I am not wanted. But I'll keep thinking about sometimes inside, and even get caught up in fantasies about where we're actually connecting, until I become conscious of what I'm doing and set it aside again. It can be rather compulsive and even scary, what can go on inside my head.

    It's like I am making an attachment to them but it's not necessarily an attachment I've tried to make or that I've earned in some way (which is probably why I rationally put boundaries on my own behavior, so as to not be a psycho about it -- I keep a very clear sense of what trust has been earned vs not, so as not to impose).

    So... intensity and constancy of connective feelings coupled with hardcore self-regulation of behavior, to keep it all in check.

    I don't know whether this is limerence, or some kind of crazy SX style behavior, or a psychological disturbance/distortion, or ... just who I happen to be, this intense polarization between connection and independence, affection and rationality. Is it inborn? Or did it develop in part because I was always ambivalent toward both my parents, never feeling connected to family growing up and also being internally at war over identity? So this is my way of connection, to compensate for the lack of a responsive outer world? I have no idea. Nor what to label it.


    As I've gotten older and am more accustomed to how intense these feelings can be, I've developed a certain objectivity about my own subjectivity, as it were. I know that despite the fact that I'm in the grip of these emotions, they're not real. Well, that's not exactly accurate. The feelings are real, I have to honor them lest they become even more unruly, but ultimately I have control over them. They'll eventually pass and I can get on with my life. It can be excruciating, though, when you can't control the amount of mental bandwidth that's going to the limerence object, though. When something that's largely no more than the product of your imagination animates you as much as anything else.
    Yeah, I balance my intensity of "feelings of unearned connection" with, well, my logical understand of that word, "unearned." I won't impose. My brain keeps me in check. Sometimes it's an intense job, but I've adjusted to it. So much energy expended in holding one in what appears to be an easy-floating neutral position to an outside.

    I suppose I could try to make this into more than what it is--that it's some sort of "exquisite anguish" or get into some pseudo-metaphysical explanation of it's underpinnings--but the fact of the matter is that it's an illness. It's just that simple and unsexy. I have no control over when it will crop up, or how long I'll be subject to it. It's why I found it so compelling when Z Buck McFate posted that thread a little while ago concerning the dominant instinctual variant as essentially the most complexed or wounded of the variants, because it very much speaks to my relationship with being an sx-dom. If I could be anything, I'd be sp-first, because if I had to fixate on something to this extent, then I'd rather it be something practical and needful. Rather than just stupid, fucking boys.
    Not putting that down, and I get what you're saying it; but to me (and I've had sp tendencies at various times of life), it's just half a dozen of one and six of another. If it's not one thing, it's another. They're all needs; it's just some are more tangible versus intangible, or at least physical needs aren't risky in the same way as dealing with equally independent beings that one cannot control.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    @Jennifer I completely relate to that.

    I can feel very strongly for people without them ever knowing because its not really the point from my perspective and don't feel like it always has anything to do with me. Just some people have endeared them self so strongly to me that i feel like I'd do anything for them if needed and was able to. Like just no questions asked what do you need. Ill have your back.

    Or just in my head very concerned with their well being and hope the best for them but they may never even know I care.

    And I feel intense sadness when people evaporate from my life that I feel this way about but I always feel that strong connection. It never goes away even if I may never see them again.

    And I'm talking about friends and romantic partners.

    I don't know if limerence is the right word for me or not but honestly I don't really care either. I'm not super interested in labeling it.

    But I do get the strong impression that I care for people differently than many others. Not better or worse... Just different.

    And I don't think this is something apparent to most people about me.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #38
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    If I could be anything, I'd be sp-first, because if I had to fixate on something to this extent, then I'd rather it be something practical and needful. Rather than just stupid, fucking boys.
    Lol. I can relate to this. I have a hard time knowing if I'm more sp or more sx because they seem pretty level in me- but I've noticed a preoccupation in myself with not wanting to need connection to others, so much that it sometimes feels like I hold solitary Connection-to-others Addiction Anonymous meetings in my own head, as if a need for connection can be introspected away. It works to some extent, but in the end still reminds me of that scene from The Jerk. “This ashtray….and this chair….that’s all I need…” The fact that it feels kinda forced/emphatic like that leads me to believe sx is actually dominant and I’m just in denial about it. [Because it seems like sp doms actually are content that way- and I rather envy that.]



    [As for "limerance", I haven't read the wiki page and can't speak to whether it resonates.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #39
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So... intensity and constancy of connective feelings coupled with hardcore self-regulation of behavior, to keep it all in check.

    I don't know whether this is limerence, or some kind of crazy SX style behavior, or a psychological disturbance/distortion, or ... just who I happen to be, this intense polarization between connection and independence, affection and rationality. Is it inborn? Or did it develop in part because I was always ambivalent toward both my parents, never feeling connected to family growing up and also being internally at war over identity? So this is my way of connection, to compensate for the lack of a responsive outer world? I have no idea. Nor what to label it.
    Yeah, I balance my intensity of "feelings of unearned connection" with, well, my logical understand of that word, "unearned." I won't impose. My brain keeps me in check. Sometimes it's an intense job, but I've adjusted to it. So much energy expended in holding one in what appears to be an easy-floating neutral position to an outside.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Lol. I can relate to this. I have a hard time knowing if I'm more sp or more sx because they seem pretty level in me- but I've noticed a preoccupation in myself with not wanting to need connection to others, so much that it sometimes feels like I hold solitary Connection-to-others Addiction Anonymous meetings in my own head, as if a need for connection can be introspected away. It works to some extent, but in the end still reminds me of that scene from The Jerk. “This ashtray….and this chair….that’s all I need…” The fact that it feels kinda forced/emphatic like that leads me to believe sx is actually dominant and I’m just in denial about it. [Because it seems like sp doms actually are content that way- and I rather envy that.]
    I think the push-pull is just the sx/sp's dilemma. Much of what you said resonated very deeply. I don't know the extent to which people are aware of these feelings I have. I feel that I'm pretty goddamn transparent, and it makes me horribly paranoid. It's like the lack of control becomes this shameful thing that's as consuming as the attraction itself. I think that that's been the biggest lesson for me: finding the beauty in what I reject in myself. To kind of let the emotions just be, entering into them, rather than just automatically assuming them to be endangering me in some way. It's ironic given how often I've been told that I'm emotionally closed-off somehow.

    All these things kinda work together. I think that learning to not view this aspect of being an sx-dom as an unmixed liability maps onto my efforts to integrate from 8-->2, maps onto my attempts to better understand my inferior. Opening to that drive for connection has caused me to recognize it everywhere, rather than where I just feel the spark. I see myself in you, I am you, and we are for each other. Developing more of a spiritual life over the years has also been a tremendous help. Some aspect of limerence, I think, is a lesser iteration of divine discontent. It was funny that you mentioned a sort of internal AA, because I have found "handing oneself over to a higher power" to be the only way to make these issues manageable. It's like the more I've sought to deepen my spiritual life, and have that relationship with God, the more context has been bestowed to all other relationships. A powerful kind of self-sufficiency flows from that.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The fact that it feels kinda forced/emphatic like that leads me to believe sx is actually dominant and I’m just in denial about it. [Because it seems like sp doms actually are content that way- and I rather envy that.]
    That line in particular resonates. From interacting with people I think are sp doms here on the forum, they all seem actually content with maintaining that control over environment and work at opening it up only because in some way they realize it is good for them in the long run to do so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I think the push-pull is just the sx/sp's dilemma.
    Yeah, that is what I'm thinking it is best described as, although there's a lot of "respect for boundaries of others" in there and not just necessarily my own.

    The reality of my life is that I'm really really good at being alone and doing things on my own. In fact, I even get flack from one ENTJ female IRL because "I never come to events or stop to say hi" (and I think she's more an SO type), and it's like I want to do it, but I don't feel like the relationships there are SX quality, they're just SO social engagements and networking sessions and in that context they exhaust me and don't serve the greater purpose so I just hang out at home a lot. But I am not HAPPY being that way. I feel a lot of loneliness even if I function perfectly fine on my own. If I had a choice, I'd rather be with someone I love and have an amazing connection to.

    So there is this weird dance between really wanting to be intimate with people and just finding it easier to keep a predictable pattern in place to minimize energy resources.

    Don't mean to distract from the limerence topic, though....

    Much of what you said resonated very deeply. I don't know the extent to which people are aware of these feelings I have. I feel that I'm pretty goddamn transparent, and it makes me horribly paranoid. It's like the lack of control becomes this shameful thing that's as consuming as the attraction itself. I think that that's been the biggest lesson for me: finding the beauty in what I reject in myself. To kind of let the emotions just be, entering into them, rather than just automatically assuming them to be endangering me in some way. It's ironic given how often I've been told that I'm emotionally closed-off somehow.
    Well, there can be a kind of fear in giving yourself over to them; you don't know where you're going to end up or what restrictions/bindings on your behavior will occur if you let your emotions pull you into things.

    I still screen emotions but I've had enough experience that I know which ones I can let loose and/or know when to grab control back before things get weird, in relationships where I feel they're permitted.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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