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Thread: The seduction styles of various enneagram variant combos

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    She had a really fucked up life and is very schizoid.
    Enneagram types do develop as a consequence of personal traumas though. They're basically different kinds of deficiencies and defense mechanisms.

    I haven't watched the American movie. I read the book and watched the Swedish version. Rooney Mara does have a very soft presence in her interviews and I could buy a 9-fix for her, so yeah. Still not sold on 9 for Lisbeth Salander though.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Enneagram types do develop as a consequence of personal traumas though. They're basically different kinds of deficiencies and defense mechanisms.
    That's debatable. If that's the case, do you think it's possible for someone in their late 30's to change enneagram type due to trauma? Or perhaps you see this as something happening at an early time in a person's life, with a short window for change? Like learning languages. Btw, I've heard all sorts of arguments and theories over how enneagram types are developed. Some say external circumstances and influences. Others say in-born, or in-utero experience.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That's debatable. If that's the case, do you think it's possible for someone in their late 30's to change enneagram type because of trauma? Or perhaps you see this as something happening at an early time in a person's life, with a short window for change? Like learning languages. Might explain why some propose you should hold off on type (both typing others and typing oneself) until after a certain age. Btw, I've heard all sorts of arguments and theories over how enneagram types are developed. Some say external circumstances and influences. Others say in-born, or in-utero experience.
    Naranjo attributes it to childhood developmental experiences, which makes a lot of sense to me.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I agree with your typing of her as core 5 and 4w3 image fix. Instincts is debatable, as I can see her as sp/sx too. But why 5w4? I always see her get thrown in the w6 camp (she does seem to have a phobic/counterphobic orientation).
    Because her focus seems to be that of self-expression, to find out the truth about herself, to understand the world through herself.

    I still see her having a 9 gut fix. The 8 stuff comes from the 5 line to 8. I always saw 8 fixers as having a rather comfortable and expansive vibe.
    And do you think that applies to me as well? My tritype is in my signature. I don't see her as a 9 fix, because 9 fixers have this narcotic and avoidant self-expression to them, even if core 5s. Again, type 5s aren't motivationally concerned about vengeance/lust-themes. The connetion to 8 doesn't work that way.

    Edit: I have rage and sadism too. And lust and vengeance. I'm not an 8-fixer. Oh wait I am, actually an 8 core with 8 wing. But seriously, I have those things, and have done stuff in the name of those things that I am not particularly proud of. I'm no 8 fixer.
    Your point...? You rather reinforce my argument.


    Also, @senza tema summarized it well as well:

    5s integrate to 8, which implies healthy behavior, I think. Salander's moments of rage and sadism are very, very far from healthy.
    I think what Loki is arguing for here is a severe misunderstanding of how 5 moves towards 8 during both levels of health and unhealth.

    As for the American film, I could see Rooney Mara as a 9-fixer too. She does have a much softer demeanor to her. I fell asleep watching it though, and I never bothered to finish it. I got rather annoyed how it attempted to come across as authentic e.g. you see Craig smoking in a coffee shop. No, just no. Smoking inside any building is prohibited in Sweden. So much for authenticity.

    Regardless, I definitely see Salander as 584 or 583. Can't see 6 core. She's avaricious, not suffering from cowardice. Her focus is on self-benefits, how she can survive in a world that is dangerous (yes, I would argue that type 5 is a rather selfish type due to having connections to both 7 and 8, being id types), not about seeking community or faith in authority. If anything I see her strongly rejecting both of those attributes, which also speaks against a 6 wing.

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    This doesn't tell me much. Actually, it can go the w6 direction depending on how you interpret it. Speaking of severe misunderstandings, what's particularly 4-ish about this? Enlighten my severe misunderstanding.
    w6 focuses more on understanding world through the outside, through structure and authority. The primary information isn't about understanding oneself, and the focus of anxiety doesn't come from not knowing oneself or who one is. Now granted, I haven't read the books but I have seen the Swedish films and from what I remember of her, I never saw anything I thought vibed as particularly 6-like.

    Probably to you a useless comparison but she is extremely similar to Hei from Darker Than Black in this regard, albeit different in their own ways. Darker Than Black is, I should add, also a mystery series, and Hei is as a whole, extremely intent to find the truth. Both 5s and 6s care about truth, but the question becomes what truth is. The one who really is the 6 in the Millennium series is if anything, Blomkvist, not Salander. He's the one who finds himself feeling framed, he's the one who sees government conspiracies and he's the one intent unveiling the grand truth to show how corrupt authority is and so on. Salander just seems to get along with Blomkvist almost for the sake of it being fun. I just don't see her actually being genuinely concerned about the truths Blomkvist is concerned about.

    The reason why I am comparing Salander to Hei is because Hei is most likely a 5w4 but I can see why people could mistake him for a 5w6 because he gets dragged into power struggles between various sources of authority and could be mistaken as appearing counter-phobic because of the ISFP-ness. Now, however, a character who I think is a 5 and a 5w6 is Fox Mulder. His thinking and focus is so much more extroverted. He is going to find out the truth about the world out there, rather than the world inside of yourself. I just never saw that kind of drive in Salander. The quote that you mention below even focuses on how the tattoos are a means of self-expression, and that alone suggests a strong connection to the image triad.

    She was incredibly counterphobic and even the theme for the series is 6-ish in nature. The mystery genre, uncovering "truths," whistle blowing, anti-authoritarian style gives it away. What I get with 6 (and 6 fixers) is a sort of skepticism and testing of ideas, culture, people, in a perhaps, a subconscious effort to maintain a stable foundation, one that can be trusted. There was a thread here that gave a good overview on identifying certain fixes. I ripped it off from that as it makes sense from my experience and observation. You get this with the average 6 description too. I'm not arguing for anything new here either as I've seen others 5s acknowledge the counterphobic in her character... so much so that she doesn't even seem like 5 to some. Image fix be damned, even the way she looks speaks to a counterphobic 6 wing. A quick google and you get something like this:
    Explain what 5s think she's a w6 to the point she seems like a 6. That as a whole doesn't mean a lot to me. A lot of people don't actually know what type 5 is, even less so how the wings for type 5 actually operate.
    Tattoos

    "Tattoos indicate both nonconformity and the individual’s assertion of power over the body. Salander’s tattoos mark her immediately as an unorthodox figure and always draw the attention of others. However, though Salander’s tattoos mark her as a nonconformist, they also indicate her control over her own body and her fierce self-possession. After her rape, Salander immediately goes and gets a tattoo: a slim band around her ankle. The act functions as a calculated assertion of her control over her own body. Likewise, the tattoo that she gives Bjurman indicates her control over his body and signifies Salander’s newfound power over him. Consequently, Bjurman too becomes marked as a social outsider, since the location of the tattoo and the nature of the words essentially cut him off from certain social interactions and reminds him consistently of Salander’s power over him."
    Whoa, look at all the 6 buzzwords.
    But this is an analysis of her character, not actually an extract from the book and her reasoning processes. Also, what 6 buzzwords? If anything, what I see here is logic reminiscent of Si from a point of Ne dominance (power over body), as well as a lot of 8-logic. I also see a strong argument here for 5, 8 and 4. I do however, not see anything pertaining to 6. I don't see anything mentioning insecurity, cowardice, fear, authority or anything of the sort.
    I don't have any more energy. If you can't the 6 in her, then I got nothin'.
    No, I can't. It would perhaps help explain what you think type 6 is for me to see why you think that way. I have a feeling that what you think is 6-ness is what I think is 8-ness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Hm...I don't know, I haven't seen the movie. But the combination you suggested sounds reasonable. I'm not goth though. I only played around with it a bit in my youth.
    Yeah most sx/sp are goth.

    Also I could be wrong about the "Dragon Tattoo" lady. I only saw a small portion of the movie and had to turn it off. I found the rape scenes too tough to handle.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Yeah most sx/sp are goth.

    Also I could be wrong about the "Dragon Tattoo" lady. I only saw a small portion of the movie and had to turn it off. I found the rape scenes too tough to handle.
    Yeah I definitely would. That's why I don't want to watch it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah I definitely would. That's why I don't want to watch it.
    I wouldn't if I were you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    @skylights

    And then there is this in 16types: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tual-Stackings
    Check section "Flow of Instinctual Energies & Compatibility":

    Flow of Instinctual Energies & Compatibility

    When we invest our energy, most of it is devoted to fulfillment of our primary instinct. The remaining energy radiates or flows onto the secondary instinct and finally onto the last instinct, which receives the smallest share. There are two possible configurations or directions for this flow. In first configuration, energy is invested in the order of sx→sp→so→sx. This direction gives rise to three stackings: sx/sp, sp/so, so/sx. In the second configuration, energy is invested in the order of sx→so→sp→sx, which gives rise to the other three stackings: sx/so, so/sp and sp/sx.

    Syn-flow: sp → so → sx → sp
    Stackings involved: sp/so → so/sx → sx/sp → sp/so
    Direction: Compelled toward people. Acting upon and with others as a born insider i.e.- deeply human.

    Contra-flow: sp → sx → so → sp
    Stackings involved: sp/sx → sx/so → so/sp → sp/sx
    Direction: Compelled against people. Seething belligerent outsiders; 'antisocial', provoking, reverse-flow change catalysts. In some profound sense, rejecting the human condition, their own and/or that of others.

    The two flows move in the opposite directions. This antithesis can be seen if the instinctual stackings are compared in pairs:

    so/sx - including, associating, affiliating, networking, incorporating, interconnecting, introducing, unifying, linking, bonding, annexing, cooperating, receiving
    sx/so - excluding, eliminating, dividing, separating, contradicting, subverting, confronting, rebuffing, ridiculing, challenging, interrupting, reforming, rupturing

    sx/sp - intensifying, escalating, rising, surging, enlivening, invigorating, accelerating, stimulating, energizing, vitalizing, reviving, animating, inspiriting
    sp/sx - dulling, calming, quieting, grounding, descending, lowering, dampening, numbing, desensitizing, exhausting, deadening, extinguishing, making still

    sp/so - conserving, protecting, maintaining, preserving, supplying, repairing, sustaining, stewarding
    so/sp - utilizing, employing, implementing, expending, exercising, spending, capitalizing, expropriating

    It has been proposed that people of stackings that are part of same flow progression generally have mutually reinforcing and supportive interactions as they are channeling their attention, efforts and energies in the same direction. The stacking located upstream within the flow progression has the ability to cover for the blindspot instinct of the downstream stacking, by this also reinforcing the energy flow of downstream stacking. For example: a person of sx/sp stacking is directing energy in the following manner sx→sp→so, in which case someone with sp/so stack can reinforce the sx/sp's weaker secondary sp→so link and support their social-last blindspot.

    The relationship between people of downsteam and upstream stackings within the same flow can be compared to relations of Benefit or Supervision in Socionics i.e. they contain elements of asymmetry; partners seem to one another simultaneously talented in some way and also somehow lacking.

    The individual of downstream stacking usually feels a measure of attraction for someone of their upstream stacking and attempt to get to know them. In they become close, the downstream stacking often attempts to provide for the upstream stacking through help and activities channeled through their secondary instinct (e.g. so/sx may try to draw out sx/sp out of their shell into the social sphere, by inviting them to partake in some social activities or introducing them to new people, sensing that sx/sp is too insular). The upstream stacking at the same time feels some kind of deficiency in the downstream stacking; this is reflected, first of all, in inflexible and overly emphatic focus on their primary instinct, which for downstream stacking, to the contrary, is an adaptive, flexible, creative area only of secondary importance; and secondly in lack of attention to their first instinct (e.g. sx/sp may feel like sp/so doesn't know how to creatively provide for their sp-needs and that sp/so is not emotionally lively enough for an sx-first). The upstream person, meanwhile, comes into awareness of downstream stacking's deficiency in their blindspot instinct which for upstream stacking serves as a creative area. If their relations are friendly, the upstream person will attempt to provide for the blindspot of the downstream person, guiding them away from committing mistakes and towards beneficial and constructive actions in this sphere (e.g. sx/sp will try to guide so/sx away from doing anything that may threaten their well-being, their health and livelihood, their self-preservation needs, and direct them towards greater sustainability and well-being). The downstream person is often reluctant about such help, since this is not something that they generally concern about, but at the same time feels inspired, uplifted, and invigorated by such blindspot support and infusion, since focus exerted on their blindspot instinct has the effect of alleviating the neuroses and insecurities related to their primary instinct fixation. If they are on unfriendly terms, the upstream stacking may openly chide, be critical and derisive of the weaknesses of downstream person in their last blindspot instinct, and look down on the downstream person for what they see as misguided and deficient orientation.

    Relations between stackings of opposite flows may feel attractive initially due to their novelty and contrast. However, in the long run, the interaction may feel somewhat boring, unrewarding, uncomplimentary, disorienting, correcting, stifling, and otherwise frustrating to the people involved.

    Relations between stackings of opposite flows with shared dominant instinct (e.g. sp/so-sp/sx, or sx/sp-sx/so) are usually most interesting and compelling at the initial stages. Both partners have the same primary drive and desire, which evokes mutual sympathy and respect. However, they soon discover that they tap into different spheres to try to fulfill this need due to differences in secondary instincts. Each will attempt to pull the other into the realm of their secondary instinct, but find that while the other person appreciates this invitation in at least for its novelty, they won't feel comfortable in this sphere and will retract, which at times will end in mutual reproaches and disagreements (e.g. sx/so complains that sx/sp is too insular, socially unaware and crude, while sx/sp will find fault with what they see as sx/so's social vassalage and disregard for privacy). It is as if both people agree on having to carry the same heavy load, but then end up pulling it into different directions, which evokes feelings of dissatisfaction and misunderstanding. Nevertheless, among the opposite flow interactions this pairing is usually the most attractive and frequently encountered one.

    Stacking of same but mutually opposing instincts (e.g. sp/so and so/sp) often have overlapping areas of interests and concerns and same area of disinterest and disregard (same instinctual blindspot). They may appreciate what the other person brings into relationship in terms of content and feel camaraderie on basis of having the same blindspot instinct (e.g. sp/sx and sx/sp may appreciate each other's disregard for the social convention and "lone wolf" approach). However, partners seem somehow elusive to one another. What constitutes the primary drive, desire, and concern of one partner, the other approaches in a creative, flexible, light-hearted way as something that is only of secondary importance. Thus while inverse stackings can sense their similarity, at the same time they constantly unbalance and throw each other off. Since they are channeling their attention and energies in the opposite directions, they may enter a cycle of mutual correction, extinguishment, and reorientation, criticizing the other for what they see as a misguided focus. Both of them might feel as if they are constantly pulling the rug from under each other's feet.

    Stackings that share the same middle instinct but not the leading one can be said to be most opposite in their orientation. If there is any attraction between people of these stackings, it usually forms on basis of overlap of areas that they approach flexibly and creatively due to having same middle instinct (e.g. sx/sp and so/sp may have involving discussion about fitness, home decor, and culinary topics). They soon discover, however, that their primary motivations and desires couldn't be any more different and are of no interest to each other, and thus part ways. In worst case scenarios, one of them will find the other disruptive of their primary orientation and try to eliminate or somehow suppress the other person.
    I realized recently this is the wisest information about instinct relations that I've read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Even with making friends in school... I remember zeroing in on the people I felt super-drawn to... then infiltrating the group... using it as an excuse to get closer to them... using it as a vector, a vehicle... then once I was completely enmeshed in the group to the point that I was part of the group 100% of the time, so I could see that person 100% of the time they were present in the group, then I'd begin to draw that person away from the group into our new coupling... actually speaking of, I'm sort of doing that with someone right now. I mean... isn't this how everyone goes about making friends?



    I didn't realize I was that creepy.
    That's like, the story of my life. I did this in the past and never though anything of it, it was just so natural to me. People think 8w7 Sx/So are beasts who grab who they want by their hair, but I'm much more seductive and persuasive than forceful.

    Damn

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