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  1. #41
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    So, in the application to instinct variant, a lot of times with people it will seem like the dominant variant is just part and parcel to who they are, or how they see life. With forum members, it will show up a lot of times in their avatar, what they talk about, what subforums they frequent, how they talk, and what subjects they return to again and again. I don't claim to be able to identify anyone's dominant instinct in that way, but it's usually somewhat telling. At the same time, it's not usually a major focus in and of itself because it's so imbued that it becomes scattered. You don't usually see sxs talking about the nitty-gritty of sex - they talk about energy, longing, compatibility, need for stimulation. Sos don't talk about social groups as much as they notice shifts in contexts, trends, recent updates, what's changed lately, what it all implies. Sps don't talk about resources running low but instead how they need to take care of this, that, the other, how we shouldn't do this, how we need to address that. It's not usually a major focus, but it's like the line that connects a vast majority of their dots.
    Frame this - especially the bolded.

    Very useful. I have a thing for a good definition or clarification.

    EDIT: so how would you define the manifestation of the second instinct? Is it merely based on priority or does the first frame the second? If I'm So/Sp, does that mean (basically) I tend to notice trends and then look at how we should address them (which is pretty accurate IMO)? You're Sx/So, therefore you focus on mental/physical/spiritual/emotional stimulation and how it varies from context to context? OK, that doesn't sound quite right, but is it something along those lines?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Frame this - especially the bolded.

    Very useful. I have a thing for a good definition or clarification.

    EDIT: so how would you define the manifestation of the second instinct? Is it merely based on priority or does the first frame the second? If I'm So/Sp, does that mean (basically) I tend to notice trends and then look at how we should address them (which is pretty accurate IMO)? You're Sx/So, therefore you focus on mental/physical/spiritual/emotional stimulation and how it varies from context to context? OK, that doesn't sound quite right, but is it something along those lines?
    I've read that the second instinct is used to support the first. I think you're right in everything you've said, aside from stacking being based on priority alone.

    I'm Sx/So with very heavy So, and long before I knew what enneagram was, it was obvious that I relied on So-related strengths and interests to bring about merging, intensity, etc. (I could give a shit about anything Sp unless there was something beautiful or thrilling about it. Whenever my friends and I played house, I always wanted to be from a "poor" family because I loved the sense of consequence/importance it brought to everyday routine.) I knew that certain social atmospheres were more conducive to close friendships and emotional experiences, and I tried my best to create them.

    I have no idea whether this is correct, but my theory as to why my social instinct is so strong is that my sx-dom needs have rarely been met and so my social instinct has been sent almost into overdrive. I feel extremely different in comparison to most people I know and struggle to maintain a sense of closeness. Small talk, humor, and diplomacy are my crutches; it become obvious to me early in life that I had to actively search for common ground, even if these similarities that bound groups together initially struck me as superficial.

    edit: I hope this doesn't sound whiny. I just live in an isolated area, but I'm pretty confident that once I begin to branch out, I'll find more people I relate to.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I originally tested so/sx actually. Also if you believe in typing people based on energy, I definitely have the energy of a so/sx as well. I just wonder why I seem so into self preservation stuff if I'm so/sx?
    I don't know you at all and haven't been following this thread much, but I noticed this post and figured I'd respond. I'm married to an ESFP 6w7 who has to be a so/sx, I really can't see any other option but he also focuses on self pres stuff which can be confusing. The only thing I can attribute it to is that he's a six- and maybe also because he's a sensor?

    Things I notice about him, though, that really seem self pres last. I'll contrast him with my sp/sx so you can see the difference:

    He doesn't have an internal self monitor/ off switch like I do. For example, if he's out with his friends or doing anything that involves having a good time, he doesn't seem to notice that he's tired. Or if he's drinking and enjoying himself he just keeps on drinking- not to blood alcohol poisoning levels or anything, but more than he'd like. Conversely, if I'm tired, I'm tired and nothing is going to wake me up. Or if I'm done drinking, I'm done and no one can convince me to have another one (I have my once a year moments where my off switch disappears, too. The thing is it's rare and everyone notices how different I am than my usual self.) He goes with the flow of his friends more than I think someone with self pres in the top two does. I marvel at this quality in him/ am confused by it, just as he marvels at my internal off switch/ is confused by it.


    There are more things, too:

    -He puts off scheduling his doctor appointments. If it weren't for me bugging him about it I don't know how long he'd go.

    -When he gets injured or sick he asks me what I think he should do. When he got really sick last year I became his health researcher/advocate.

    -He never works on maintaining the house or yard work or cleaning or cooking or grocery shopping (those are my responsibilities) and he gets really upset/ complains when he has to do these things. I don't love doing these things either but I see them as mandatory so I make sure they happen. Also, I'm really particular about food and how I want the yard/house to look so I prioritize it.

    - He has endless amounts of energy. He jumps around like a puppy until he collapses, takes a quick nap, and is good to go again. I parcel my energy out and am for the most part contained/ withdrawn unless there's something I'm really excited about. Then I'll have a burst of energy which tires me out for weeks.


    Things which seem self pres about him:

    -He talks a lot about exercise and nutrition, but this has to do primarily with him being an older skateboarder and wanting to stay in shape so he can continue to do it. All of his talk about exercise and nutrition actually drives me nuts. I just take care of these things vs talking about them.

    -He's worked at the same job for years and is always stressing out about money. He's fairly good at sticking to a budget. I am inconsistent in job matters (although I stress that I'm not consistent) and don't particularly stress about money. However, what I spend money on is good food and vitamins/supplements. I'm a total cheapskate on clothes/furniture and buy everything second hand, but I also love the aesthetic of used things and this is what my money goes towards. I spend about zero money on going out while all of his budget goes toward going out with friends and taking trips with them, etc. I can't imagine him ever spending money on house-related items.


    I share this with you because you will see strengths and weaknesses in all of the instincts regardless of stacking. You really have to look at the forest vs the trees.

    I see instincts like this, in a nutshell:

    so: I will be there for others/ pay attention to others. me= my group/ humanity
    sx: I will follow my passions. me= what I love
    sp: I will take care of myself, my loved ones, and my surroundings. me= me and my most intimates, the material world


    To clarify, social tends to provide more of an "I am there for you" support while self pres provides more of a practical, material support. Social gives a hug while self pres makes a sandwich- or, more likely, teaches the other person how to make a sandwich for themselves. Social idealizes community while self pres idealizes self sufficiency. (And sexual idealizes passion.)

    Which do you, ultimately, prioritize/ idealize?

  4. #44
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I originally tested so/sx actually. Also if you believe in typing people based on energy, I definitely have the energy of a so/sx as well. I just wonder why I seem so into self preservation stuff if I'm so/sx?
    everyone worries about everything. it's more about the strategy you use to deal with it. eg go on a message-board to vent all your concerns in a way to gain reassurance and support from others vs internalizing and trying to let go of the ones you simply can't deal with right now.

    with that said, sp has the least right now sense of all. they just keep inching backwards. sometimes this tendency results in them forgetting how to rejoin the moment, themselves, others. they become distant in a way that prevents them from realizing the possibilities, the fluctuations, and the urgency of experiences, emotions, momentary interactions, etc. they're so good at tempering in the short-term, but the strategy can still produce immense stress and greyness in the long-term when the story has already been written. they'll sacrifice so much when substituting the intensity of a tragedy for empty, detached, under the surface hopelessness. they won't let themselves get too enthusiastic.

    sp just has the strongest ignore switch. paradoxically, this, at times, helps them focus on what needs to happen without allowing themselves or expectations (theirs or those of others) to get in the way. it generates the most distance, letting go of me-focus and other-focus and just staying with the objective a little more. it can also be incredibly grounding, and the willingness and the practice of letting part of yourself die so the rest may live on is actually kind of necessary for any kind of spiritual connection to anything, nature, timelessness, etc.

    finally, there is no definitive sp content. it's more about orientation. how you experience it. for instance, your body's health doesn't just mean your sustainability. it means your social value (the roles you can reasonably play). it means your power to make things happen (your charisma, athleticism, championness, sexualization). and, as meaning, it influences the cycles of your mood as you deal with pain and pleasure. some people are sprinters, who can go for it and it alone when it is within reach. some people are striders, who can do their 400s at near full speed. some people are slow and steady runners, who can go on forever. each issue leads to pain and pleasure, and it depends on where and when it fits within our energetic pattern that we relate to it in our unique ways. so is so broad, they can just keep going passing the baton and relaying as long as they have their part. and they'll truly do their best to play that part. but the concerns circulating within the market, including all content, filter into the roles we can envision for ourselves and that seem to ensnare us when we recognize their markings on ourselves.

  5. #45
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    1. You're very focused on desirability and relationships. But I'm not sure you really have the sx-first energy. You're so conscious about sx stuff. When a variant is dominant... it's usually not that conscious. It's more just like it's coloring everything to an extent that it's almost in the background, if that makes sense. And ENTP sx-firsts, at least as far as I've interacted with them online, are usually more "raw" than you.

    2. That they seem very sp.



    Yeah, exactly.

    I agree I do seem very sp for an so/sx. Also, in accordance with your theory I could be so/sx because I've noticed that I just automatically recognize social trends and social webs and don't really think about it much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm a 6 sx/so and this actually is covered more by my sx dom, but it makes me a very intense, passionate, social issue person. I also fail to understand why anyone in their right mind would want to live in a society without any safety nets at all, or without any sense of community responsibility, like it literally seems like the height of bad social foresight to me, and that people who think that way should probably be actively pushed out of major societal decisions.

    That's not to say I can only justify socialism, because I also respect moderate responsible conservatism as well; I have a hard time respecting the "social planning" of any individual who fails to see how you can't have social freedom without social responsibility.

    When I was younger I also thought that people who couldn't analyze social or cultural trends were "dumb." Obviously all smart people can see these things. LOLLERSKATEZ.

    In my personal life I think it just gives me an overall awareness of my social position, though I care about my intimate relationships and passions first and foremost, and social position will be utterly disregarded for those things (but those things only).

    However, since I'm not an so dom, I'm not constantly concerned about social belonging (or the intent to oppose groups).

    As a 6, though, I'm always going to want support. From somewhere. Usually more though from a belief system or ethical world view or a romantic relationship or close friendship first (sx first), rather than from a group (so secondary).

    I think I read that 6w7 sx/so also seems more like 4w3 (and I really do seem 4ish in some ways) because they're often concerned with their sexual status, literally, like they want to be seen as attractive and alluring...and I've worked many years of my life in some branch of adult entertainment, and I place a strong emphasis on the sexual attractiveness of my partner, rather than necessarily his status financially or "in the community"...though I have shown a predilection in the past to brag that I was able to secure the attention or relationship with a man that other women *wanted.* And it's always seemed more important to me that they wanted him because he was good looking and/or charming and funny and/or charismatic and witty rather than having some kind of showy financial or "stable social position" reason for being desired by other women (or gay men! ha).

    It sounds shallow, but it's true, and a lot of people probably don't even give a shit, it really mostly matters in my own head.

    A friend of mine recently did my full astrological chart and she told me I'm an "It Girl" because my Mars and Venus are both in Aries, and I'm perfectly aligned with Venus in Aries in degrees or something.

    Anyway that makes a lot of sense with what I've read about 6w7 sx/so women. There's a whole section in the Personalty Cafe enneagram section on how the variants apply to each phase of the enneagram, and in men and women, and I think you can read it without being a member there (for instance, if you're banned from there).
    That's one thing that doesn't make sense about me though, is that I don't tend to really care about belonging to a social group.

  6. #46
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I don't know you at all and haven't been following this thread much, but I noticed this post and figured I'd respond. I'm married to an ESFP 6w7 who has to be a so/sx, I really can't see any other option but he also focuses on self pres stuff which can be confusing. The only thing I can attribute it to is that he's a six- and maybe also because he's a sensor?

    Things I notice about him, though, that really seem self pres last. I'll contrast him with my sp/sx so you can see the difference:

    He doesn't have an internal self monitor/ off switch like I do. For example, if he's out with his friends or doing anything that involves having a good time, he doesn't seem to notice that he's tired. Or if he's drinking and enjoying himself he just keeps on drinking- not to blood alcohol poisoning levels or anything, but more than he'd like. Conversely, if I'm tired, I'm tired and nothing is going to wake me up. Or if I'm done drinking, I'm done and no one can convince me to have another one (I have my once a year moments where my off switch disappears, too. The thing is it's rare and everyone notices how different I am than my usual self.) He goes with the flow of his friends more than I think someone with self pres in the top two does. I marvel at this quality in him/ am confused by it, just as he marvels at my internal off switch/ is confused by it.


    There are more things, too:

    -He puts off scheduling his doctor appointments. If it weren't for me bugging him about it I don't know how long he'd go.

    -When he gets injured or sick he asks me what I think he should do. When he got really sick last year I became his health researcher/advocate.

    -He never works on maintaining the house or yard work or cleaning or cooking or grocery shopping (those are my responsibilities) and he gets really upset/ complains when he has to do these things. I don't love doing these things either but I see them as mandatory so I make sure they happen. Also, I'm really particular about food and how I want the yard/house to look so I prioritize it.

    - He has endless amounts of energy. He jumps around like a puppy until he collapses, takes a quick nap, and is good to go again. I parcel my energy out and am for the most part contained/ withdrawn unless there's something I'm really excited about. Then I'll have a burst of energy which tires me out for weeks.


    Things which seem self pres about him:

    -He talks a lot about exercise and nutrition, but this has to do primarily with him being an older skateboarder and wanting to stay in shape so he can continue to do it. All of his talk about exercise and nutrition actually drives me nuts. I just take care of these things vs talking about them.

    -He's worked at the same job for years and is always stressing out about money. He's fairly good at sticking to a budget. I am inconsistent in job matters (although I stress that I'm not consistent) and don't particularly stress about money. However, what I spend money on is good food and vitamins/supplements. I'm a total cheapskate on clothes/furniture and buy everything second hand, but I also love the aesthetic of used things and this is what my money goes towards. I spend about zero money on going out while all of his budget goes toward going out with friends and taking trips with them, etc. I can't imagine him ever spending money on house-related items.


    I share this with you because you will see strengths and weaknesses in all of the instincts regardless of stacking. You really have to look at the forest vs the trees.

    I see instincts like this, in a nutshell:

    so: I will be there for others/ pay attention to others. me= my group/ humanity
    sx: I will follow my passions. me= what I love
    sp: I will take care of myself, my loved ones, and my surroundings. me= me and my most intimates, the material world


    To clarify, social tends to provide more of an "I am there for you" support while self pres provides more of a practical, material support. Social gives a hug while self pres makes a sandwich- or, more likely, teaches the other person how to make a sandwich for themselves. Social idealizes community while self pres idealizes self sufficiency. (And sexual idealizes passion.)

    Which do you, ultimately, prioritize/ idealize?
    1. I'm definitely not an Se dom. I am Ne as hell and my Se is garbage so the possibility of me being an Se dom goes out.

    2. I relate to you about sometimes not keeping my doctors appointments. I have had several medical problems in the last few years and many times I don't really take care of them until they get EXTREMELY bad. There was one injury that I sustained earlier this year though that took about 3 months to heal and that medical problem I literally put every fiber of my being into. I did these penis exercises to try to make my penis huge, and they failed miserably. I messed my penis up so much that I was completely impotent and there was no feeling in it either. I eventually went online and found a forum that dealt with injuries from these exercises and was able to nurse my penis completely back to health.

    3. I also do not have the internal on and off switch.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I agree I do seem very sp for an so/sx. Also, in accordance with your theory I could be so/sx because I've noticed that I just automatically recognize social trends and social webs and don't really think about it much.



    That's one thing that doesn't make sense about me though, is that I don't tend to really care about belonging to a social group.
    Well some so types actually are preoccupied a lot of being an "outsider" or thinking about other groups or railing against them, and are generally concerned with their "status" ...some form of elitism a lot of times, like a 4 here said she's more of an aesthetic elitist, and the 5 said she was more of an intellectual or academic elitist, and I've noticed with myself even being so secondary I do have a kind of intangible form of elitism, like ...hmmm what is it exactly? Of course I don't know how much that is caused by my disintegration to 3.

    I'm definitely sx first though, not so first. However, later on when I read about sx/so I was like "wow it's like they just sat down and wrote about me." I felt a similar way when I read about the bad traits of 6s.

    I thought I might be an sx/sp for quite some time because of my "bite back" quality, but I'm totally sx/so, and the bite-back quality comes from 6-ish reactivity and disintegrating at a highly competitive and materially oriented 3.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    That's one thing that doesn't make sense about me though, is that I don't tend to really care about belonging to a social group.
    Oh, but that does make sense! Social instinct doesn't necessarily care about belonging. It just is keen to placement, knowing where you are and where others are in respect to each other and in the greater context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Frame this - especially the bolded.

    Very useful. I have a thing for a good definition or clarification.

    EDIT: so how would you define the manifestation of the second instinct? Is it merely based on priority or does the first frame the second? If I'm So/Sp, does that mean (basically) I tend to notice trends and then look at how we should address them (which is pretty accurate IMO)? You're Sx/So, therefore you focus on mental/physical/spiritual/emotional stimulation and how it varies from context to context? OK, that doesn't sound quite right, but is it something along those lines?
    Oh, that is flattering, thank you!

    @decrescendo voiced what I also understand, that the second is utilized to support the first. I have read somewhere that the second tends to be the "healthiest" and most normal instinct, with most people running it enough such that they have decent skill with it but not to an extent where it becomes overwhelming, as with their dominant. I suspect that since the first is so automatic, the second becomes more of an intentional focus, brought to conscious light whenever it seems like the ability to continue operating the first instinct is threatened, or when the first instinct is so well satisfied that we can comfortably open into our second instinct as well. It seems like it fulfills a role akin to our tertiary function in MBTI, maybe, with a similar sense of lightness, play, and intentional engagement.

    To me personally, it seems like there is little opportunity for enjoyment of sx without so conditions being met, and it seems that the goal of sx-bonding is the creation of a grand unity, sort of the place where sx slips into so (and ultimately where both slip into sp, because with complete unity we would all be provided for) - but of course without sx, there is little point for me to engage so. Why would I care about my place in a world I cannot connect with? I assume an sx/sp would ask something like, why would I care about my personal upkeep if there is no opportunity for myself to intimately connect? And then for the sp/sx it might be why would I care about intimately connecting if I cannot keep up with myself? (I have heard something very similar to this out of my ISFJ). For sp/so, why would I care about my place in the world if I cannot keep up with myself? For so/sx, why would I care about intimately connecting if I don't have a place in the world? For so/sp, why would I care about personal upkeep if I don't have a place in the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    (I could give a shit about anything Sp unless there was something beautiful or thrilling about it. Whenever my friends and I played house, I always wanted to be from a "poor" family because I loved the sense of consequence/importance it brought to everyday routine.)
    !

    I knew that certain social atmospheres were more conducive to close friendships and emotional experiences, and I tried my best to create them.
    Yes, exactly.

    edit: I hope this doesn't sound whiny. I just live in an isolated area, but I'm pretty confident that once I begin to branch out, I'll find more people I relate to.
    It doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    The only thing I can attribute it to is that he's a six [...] He's worked at the same job for years and is always stressing out about money. He's fairly good at sticking to a budget. I am inconsistent in job matters (although I stress that I'm not consistent) and don't particularly stress about money. However, what I spend money on is good food and vitamins/supplements. I'm a total cheapskate on clothes/furniture and buy everything second hand, but I also love the aesthetic of used things and this is what my money goes towards. I spend about zero money on going out while all of his budget goes toward going out with friends and taking trips with them, etc. I can't imagine him ever spending money on house-related items.
    Maybe it is a 6 thing. I do have some sp-oddities myself... I am very territorial when it comes to personal space... I've held the same seasonal job for years... I've had the same car for almost 10 years now and it's still in pretty good shape considering... I'm very good with saving (though I don't really stress about money)... I spend most of my money on food. There is some degree of security-establishing that I think comes inherent to 6. But it's very clear when you put me next to my sp-first mom or dad or boyfriend, who all are all "I need to do this", "Don't do that", I have to take care of this", etc. I'm like, oh, I guess I have to get the car inspected or I'll be driving illegally, probably shouldn't do that. I really don't stress about these things at all. I am way more concerned with my relationship or the social atmosphere at work. Sp stuff is like... oh, yeah, guess I should do that.

  9. #49
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @Marmotini

    Yes, I am very preoccupied with being an elitist, and I am VERY aware of my social standing with others. Right now, I feel really bad about where I am in terms of social status and experience a lot of social anxiety when I am in social settings because of it. Often times I have to drink when I am in a social setting because I almost have like this, "All eyes on me" feeling and I can literally just look at people and tell what their opinions of me are and I don't think that they are good. I can literally feel out the energy of a room.

    Let's take an experience at the club for instance. I was talking to my good friend @Elfboy about this one time, and he told me that when he goes to the club he has no problem dancing in front of other people, even if he sucks at it. Now I on the other hand, have been trying to learn how to dance lately and I'm having to practice it alone with a woman, and out of a social setting because, again, I will have this "All eyes on me" feeling and I can literally just watch people's eyes and just know that they're looking at me and laughing. Wherever I go, and whatever I do, I seem to be like an actor in front of an audience.
    @skylights

    Oh, but that does make sense! Social instinct doesn't necessarily care about belonging. It just is keen to placement, knowing where you are and where others are in respect to each other and in the greater context.
    Yes, I am definitely aware of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    @Marmotini

    Yes, I am very preoccupied with being an elitist, and I am VERY aware of my social standing with others. Right now, I feel really bad about where I am in terms of social status and experience a lot of social anxiety when I am in social settings because of it. Often times I have to drink when I am in a social setting because I almost have like this, "All eyes on me" feeling and I can literally just look at people and tell what their opinions of me are and I don't think that they are good. I can literally feel out the energy of a room.

    Let's take an experience at the club for instance. I was talking to my good friend @Elfboy about this one time, and he told me that when he goes to the club he has no problem dancing in front of other people, even if he sucks at it. Now I on the other hand, have been trying to learn how to dance lately and I'm having to practice it alone with a woman, and out of a social setting because, again, I will have this "All eyes on me" feeling and I can literally just watch people's eyes and just know that they're looking at me and laughing. Wherever I go, and whatever I do, I seem to be like an actor in front of an audience.
    @skylights



    Yes, I am definitely aware of this.
    Hmm sounds like social anxiety. Makes sense with you being a 6.

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