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  1. #21
    jump sleuthiness's Avatar
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    Poop your pants

    thinking of you

  2. #22
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    A Social-first of another enneatype might have a completely different focus.
    You're example with the type 4 was interesting. You're right in that different enneatypes will have a different focus. As a 5 and a possible SO dominant, my focus is quite different. For me, it's about knowledge and wanting to occupy a special niche for myself. I also see what other people are knowledgeable about and compare their areas of expertise to my own. Am I more or less knowledgeable than they are in such and such an area?
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  3. #23
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross

    Yeah, but you are an Extrovert. It's easy to confuse what the driving factor may be behind any one choice/action/preference.

    I agree with EJCC you seem Sx first and may be a Sx/So.
    Yeah, that's what everyone keeps saying that I'm Sx/So. However, I was just reading through some threads on PerC and I saw a post from Promethea. It sounds like SX doms have a strong intensity that I don't have. I have quite a bit of intensity, yes. However, I'm not sure if I have enough intensity to be an sx dom. Also, many sx doms tell me that they pretty much have to follow wherever their intense passions lead them no matter what. I'm not really sure that I relate to this. After all, I try to always weigh the options before I make a decision and not just follow something blindly. I try to think everything through.

    Probably. With a SJ the JCF might alter the thinking slightly. A SFJ for example, might put more stock in the opinions of the group because they use Fe to consult the group in order to come to a decision. And all SJs might be less inclined to disagree and disrupt because Si encourages them to stick with what has been proven to work effectively over time. But then maybe Te stubbornness will make a STJ more likely to hold to their own views and dismiss others'. Like I said above, there can be multiple factors in play.
    Thanks for clearing this up.

    I would argue that 6s have a Sp quality to them. This might give you more balance in your instincts and make the blind spot less obvious (I'm in the same boat with my instincts and type). BlackCat (although he's not around much these days) made a thread here once about the instincts relating to type. There was a recent thread that implied the same idea. Some instincts emphasise the type, some have no effect, and some "counteract" (for the lack of a better word) it. BlackCat's version went something like this:

    5s:
    Sp accentuates the type's characteristics
    So is neutral
    Sx counteracts

    3s:
    So accentuates the type's characteristics
    Sx is neutral
    Sp counteracts

    8s
    Sx accentuates the type's characteristics
    Sp is neutral
    So counteracts
    1. I agree with everything that you say about 5's.

    2. I agree and disagree with what you say about 3's. I believe that SO last counteracts the 3w2, but it doesn't counteract eh 3w4. 3w2's chase success because they want to be socially praised for their success and want recognition. However, 3w4's often times go out and get their success for themselves so to say. They need to just personally feel like they are successful based on just being in the cream of the crop. They don't necessarily need the praise and admiration that the 3w2's need.

    3. I'm not really sure that I agree that SO counteracts type 8 either. I've noticed especially that a lot of 8w7 so/sp types will often want to climb the social ladder for power so-to-say. For instance my ESTJ grandfather was an 8w7 so/sp and he was all about power, indepence, control, etc. He was in the military and climbed the social ladder and the ranks in order to (in his later life) become a very powerful man in the military.

  4. #24
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    You keep claiming that but in your thread I kept seeing quite neurotic sp from you, and not the kind of neurotic sp I'd expect from an sp first type but from an sp last type. Also, as I mentioned in your thread, all the issues you raised as sp concerns most of all seemed like 6 concerns. Even when I asked you to specifically try to provide with how you approach sp it just seems to kind of fall out of your mind, like you couldn't quite grasp the concept itself.

    That is also another strong indication of sp most likely being your blind spot. Just because you do not perceive your blind spot means it's not there - that's why it is called the blind spot. Think about, it's a blind spot because we cannot see it as a weakness or deficiency since we tend to so blatantly ignore it.

    That's pretty much how I understand so as well as sx/sp. I'm like, oh, community, news, belonging, network society? What's that?
    Please refer to post #12 where I go over this in great detail.

    @Kasper

    There is a preoccupation for me, as a 9, to feel "part of" a sense of belonging, however this preoccupation is also an indication that I never actually achieve that, rather it's a constant driver that I am compelled to find without ending.
    But what will this accomplish though? I mean sometimes I use SO for contacts to help me in my career, and to get things. However, I never give a damn about to belonging. Out of curiosity, what do you want to belong to?
    I don't pay attention to who knows who, that's bland and boring to me, it's more that I read social dynamics as naturally as reading a book, it seems obvious to me, the interpersonal dynamics between anyone and everyone without paying specific attention to who is who. Filtered through my 9 it's important for me to know the interpersonal dynamics so I can influence potential conflicts before they occur so that my peace isn't disrupted.
    But what type of social dynamics? Can you elaborate on this?

    I have a need for recognition in aspects, to not be ignored, I don't care much for prestige.
    Well, my need for prestige is interesting. It's like I feel the need to feel recognized for my accomplishments and to feel successful in the eyes of society. I just don't want to feel like a loser. I never really gave a shit about being popular in high school or anything or being popular in the places that I have worked though.

    Of course, am also an extrovert though. And on the flip side, I am also often times highly anti-social and reclusive, as a So dom it's the area that has a big impact on me is all, like a Sp dom can flip between preoccupation with needs and neglect, or a Sx dom can flip between seeking meaningful connections and promiscuity, So is about the flip between social and anti-social.


    The biggest thing for me is the focus on interpersonal dynamics, picture a politician who can see all the dynamics of a room and know who to hit up and at what angle to get what he needs, that's how it works for me, the second major area is the preoccupation for being "part of".
    It's interesting because I can relate to both SX wanting to build strong connections then be promiscous, and SO switching between social and anti-social. It's funny because right now I feel like a failure in my life because I haven't accomplished much. So when I go out in situations with a lot of people around, I instantly feel strong anxiety whenever I go out. It's a very terrifying situation for me.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Please refer to post #12 where I go over this in great detail.
    I still fail to see sp in your stacking after reading that. I'm sx/sp and I can't relate to many of your concerns at all. They again, seem more like 6 concerns, not necessarily sp concerns. Sp doesn't mean you automatically care about having a job or money in such a sense.

    Those that are sp blind could also experience over-focus on sp concerns and worry a lot more because they realize they are inadequate in this area, just like how I'm concerned about my so blind spot and feel frustrated because I don't get it.

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  6. #26
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Yeah, that's what everyone keeps saying that I'm Sx/So. However, I was just reading through some threads on PerC and I saw a post from Promethea. It sounds like SX doms have a strong intensity that I don't have. I have quite a bit of intensity, yes. However, I'm not sure if I have enough intensity to be an sx dom. Also, many sx doms tell me that they pretty much have to follow wherever their intense passions lead them no matter what. I'm not really sure that I relate to this. After all, I try to always weigh the options before I make a decision and not just follow something blindly. I try to think everything through.
    I don't know enough about the internal experiences of everyday Sx-firsts to really say for sure, but I don't imagine they never weigh options or think things through. And if you're a 6, you're more likely to consider potential hurdles ahead of time, even if you are a Sx.

    I wouldn't rule it out.

    2. I agree and disagree with what you say about 3's. I believe that SO last counteracts the 3w2, but it doesn't counteract eh 3w4. 3w2's chase success because they want to be socially praised for their success and want recognition. However, 3w4's often times go out and get their success for themselves so to say. They need to just personally feel like they are successful based on just being in the cream of the crop. They don't necessarily need the praise and admiration that the 3w2's need.
    I see what you're saying. The wings do change the pull of the instincts. I'm a 4w5, and that wing adds a Sp flavour - and I actually thought for while that I was a Sp-first. However, regardless of one's stacking or wings, the type itself does have an inherent lean to one of the instincts. The 4 has an underlying Sx-ness to the type; there is a sort of passion and intensity that goes with it. I'm a Sx-last but I can still sense that aspect within myself.

    Basically, a 3 is still a 3. 3w2s are more warm, outgoing and mainstream than 3w4s, but both still generally fit with So-related characteristics: they're good with people, natural communicators, socially adaptive, interested in prestige (whether it is by society's standards or their own) etc.

    3. I'm not really sure that I agree that SO counteracts type 8 either. I've noticed especially that a lot of 8w7 so/sp types will often want to climb the social ladder for power so-to-say. For instance my ESTJ grandfather was an 8w7 so/sp and he was all about power, indepence, control, etc. He was in the military and climbed the social ladder and the ranks in order to (in his later life) become a very powerful man in the military.
    But desiring to climb the social ladder isn't necessarily anything to do with the social instinct; what matters is the reason why they want to do it. An 8's want control and power and often the only way to get this is by being on top. They might not give a damn about the success aspect; they're just glad to have dominance. 8s tend to be extremely intense; they're are driven very personal goals and don't really notice or care how it affects others - hence very Sx inclined and not so much So in nature.

    Here's what Beatrice Chestnut says about So 8s (which was in that thread I linked to):

    The SO Eight is a contradiction: a rebellious person who goes against social norms, but who is also oriented toward protection and loyalty. Archetypically, this was the child who got violent in protecting the mother from the father – violence out of solidarity. In contrast to the SP Eight, the SO Eight is more loyal and less aggressive. (This is the countertype.)
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #27
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't know enough about the internal experiences of everyday Sx-firsts to really say for sure, but I don't imagine they never weigh options or think things through. And if you're a 6, you're more likely to consider potential hurdles ahead of time, even if you are a Sx.

    I wouldn't rule it out.


    Personally, the way Sx 6 manifests for me is a very, very clear prioritization of time and energy allocation. I am always thinking about the future and what obstacles may present themselves, with the goal of maximizing and optimizing the quality and quantity of time I get to spend with the people most important to me and doing the things I most like to do. When presented with a free weekend, I will always prioritize my significant other and family (especially travelling or doing fun activities with them!), then I will prioritize connecting with organizations and close friends, then comes everything else. This is part of why I asked @The Great One about his time allocation - to me it came off more Sp than anything, but that was by no means a reliable litmus test.

    More broadly, Sx 6 is identified by Ichazo as "strength and beauty", in the sense that we pre-emptively strengthen or beautify our selves as a source of protection from whatever we fear - it can come off somewhat similar to 3's "primping" of the self to be appealing to others, but 6s don't have the ability to carry through a performance because our fear constantly bubbles to the surface. We seek stability in immersive experiences that become sources of self-assurance, like being strong, being beautiful, or having a strong bond with a significant other (the problem being, of course, that we need to feel self-assured regardless of these sources). This is where we may come off like 8s - we attempt to protect ourselves up front by becoming one with our protection. The key difference is that again because of ever-present fear, we are unable to create a consistent shell, so 6s, even Sx, vacillate.

    As far as I understand, the Social 6 seeks security in a different way. I have a coworker who I believe to be an INFJ 6w7 so-first, and she is hyperaware of the "spiderweb" of personal connections at our workplace - she has excellent awareness of who is who, who belongs to what, who does what, how they can help, who to be careful around, and so on. She unintentionally tends to keep an eye out on everything and everyone, and pinpoints conflict before it occurs - for example, another of my coworkers was on his cell when an exec walked in, and she signalled him to get off it just in time. This particular 6 is quite phobic and I have never seen her directly confront an authority, but I have often witnessed her go around an authority and appeal to higher authorities via other channels to get what she wants.

    My INTP dad is a sp-first 6w5, the most stereotypically 6 of the 6s. Our family affectionately nicknamed him "Mister Security" long before I'd ever even heard of the Enneagram. He's very aware of home security, alarms, privacy, lights, temperature, finance, spending, investments, insurance, and cars/transportation. He seems to have an internal radar for the little things that aren't quite right and a driving need to fix them. Even as an absent-minded-professor type INTP, he safeguards himself and others by making sure all the practical protections are in place, up to date, and being used accurately and consistently by the whole family. He's generally low-key and affable, with gently self-deprecating humor.

    Great One, does that help at all in terms of relating to any of these styles?

  8. #28
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @LeaT

    So what do you think that I am then sx/so?
    @Southern Kross

    I don't know enough about the internal experiences of everyday Sx-firsts to really say for sure, but I don't imagine they never weigh options or think things through. And if you're a 6, you're more likely to consider potential hurdles ahead of time, even if you are a Sx.

    I wouldn't rule it out.
    Ok I will be sure to note that.

    But desiring to climb the social ladder isn't necessarily anything to do with the social instinct; what matters is the reason why they want to do it. An 8's want control and power and often the only way to get this is by being on top. They might not give a damn about the success aspect; they're just glad to have dominance. 8s tend to be extremely intense; they're are driven very personal goals and don't really notice or care how it affects others - hence very Sx inclined and not so much So in nature.

    Here's what Beatrice Chestnut says about So 8s (which was in that thread I linked to):

    Ok so maybe climbing the social ladder isn't congruent with so/sx but it's definitely congruent with so/sp.
    @skylights

    I related to what you said with all three of the variants a little bit. I will admit that being attractive and having a mate are very important to me. I'm not sure if I would say that it makes me feel safe, but it definitely makes me worry if I don't know where I stand with my mate. I often times put sx needs above all others. Anything that could harm my appearance or deter my ability to attract a mate, I am petrified of. For instance, my friend has a propane torch at his house that heated to 1000 degrees the other day, and he used it to light the bond fire that we all were enjoying. I literally hauled ass out of the backyard that we were lighting the fire in, and couldn't even be near that torch. What's funny is that I really didn't care all that much about whether the torch could kill me or not. In fact, what really terrified me about that torch is that it could disfigure my body and greatly harm my chances of attracting future mates. This fear was practically unbearable to me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it all night.

    I am aware of the social dynamics of a place as well, but it doesn't mean that much to me. For instance, I can understand social webs as well and could easily understand how they would frighten people. For instance, let's say you get a job in an office, and you are doing well and are promoted to assistant manager. Let's also say that you have a friend named "Joe" who also works there with you and is also an assistant manager. Then, let's say that Joe has an uncle who is the CFO of the organization, and and is also good friends with the office manager (your boss). I could easily see how it would be a great idea to make friends with Joe and to not get on the bad side of Joe because he could easily use his connections to hurt you or help you in your rise to success. However, I don't go out of my way to make these connections with people, I just go out of my way to avoid losing them once I've made them.

    I've noticed that most of my self pres needs also correlate with Sx, so that makes me wonder if I really am into self pres needs at all. For instance, again, I am terrified of anything that could harm my physical appearance or anything that could make me crippled so that I couldn't make love to a woman anymore (like being in a wheel chair for instance). I often worry about finances as well because I have been poor for so long that I don't want to be without money anymore because it sucks to be without it. I also hate being without medical care because it sucks to be in continual pain.

  9. #29
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @The Great One,

    It still seems like you really stress on sp concerns and your fears revolve around them - your physical attractiveness, your appearance, your body, your possible impotence, your finances, your bodily pain - clearly being desirable and being able to secure a mate are of high importance to you, but your sx consciousness seems more tailored to mate attraction, and less about intensity of connection, immersion, and need for constant strong stimulation. Are those impulses stronger in you than the impulse to safeguard yourself, your body, and your desirability? Sx is a paradoxically self-destructive instinct as it is constantly seeking to subsume the self... you do not sound particularly self-destructive to me thus far. Are you?
    Last edited by skylights; 05-20-2013 at 06:01 PM. Reason: more thoughts

  10. #30
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    @The Great One,

    It still seems like you really stress on sp concerns and your fears revolve around them - your physical attractiveness, your appearance, your body, your possible impotence, your finances, your bodily pain - clearly being desirable and being able to secure a mate are of high importance to you, but your sx consciousness seems more tailored to mate attraction, and less about intensity of connection, immersion, and need for constant strong stimulation. Are those impulses stronger in you than the impulse to safeguard yourself, your body, and your desirability? Sx is a paradoxically self-destructive instinct as it is constantly seeking to subsume the self... you do not sound particularly self-destructive to me thus far. Are you?
    I'm actually very self destructive and self sabotaging. I've been seeing a hypnotherapist about it actually. I have all of these crazy impulses to do random shit and they are really bad and could easily get me locked up in jail. Also, I do want strong passion in a relationship, and I guess that's the same thing that you would call intensity isn't it? I become obsessed with relationships when I am with a person, and often times get pretty damn clingy. I connect with a person really fast. Also, I've found that I don't have much control over who I "vibe" with, I just do and this also seems SX. It's almost like I have a key, and I'm trying to find the right ignition that the key fits into to. You don't think I'm sx last do you?

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