[sx] Are all so sx feminine?

[Flatlander]

To the OP:

The short answer is: Probably not.

The longer answer is: It depends on what you mean by 'masculine' and 'feminine'. What do these terms mean to you; how do you define them? What characterizes someone as masculine or feminine in your head?

Or are you going by cultural/externally-defined stereotypes? In which case your premise is wrong, as these types have masculine archetypes as well as feminine.

 

[Vilku]

That's too simplistic a view as there are many reasons why a person would like another person. Enneatype can only describe one aspect of this at best since intertype is not really an explored aspect of the enneagram theory. In general people tend to get along with those who represent the types they got a line of connection with. As a 5, I for example get along great with 8s given that we cognitively also seem to think somewhat similar e.g. favor Ne-Si and Fi-Te as our function preferences.

"I fail to see the connection between Jungian intuition and social energy unless you mean feeling energized from interacting with the external world which again makes you an extrovert, not an introvert."

*facepalm* ................. your taking these theories far too copy paste method without thinking for yourself at all. i can be both energized and de-energized by social interaction. it depends entirely whether my internal theories are able to keep up with the external stimuli. if yes, then im able to see what i gain by interacting with them and thus im making progress, if not, then ill be overwhelmed and will require a significant thinking phase after the conversation to regain my composure.

"For the love of, could you please learn to use the quote function. It's quite fantastic when trying to make sense of what I wrote and what you wrote. "

i have tried, but it seems to mess up everything so nope.

"If you can't stand to be away from extroverted stimuli, then you are most likely not a social introvert either. And I don't think instincts dictate as much that we feel as it dictates what we look out for in life and find to be important."

no, it doesnt dictate what we think but the names of each instincts were chosen for very specific reasons. as in if i become anti social, im ignoring my primary instinct and depending too much on sx, which is visible in me being simply too intense for others to bear and then they are all horrified of me. and they hate how im ignorant of social rules/norms and all that other bullshit.

"I can't say I lust after people's personalities or their type. I lust after persons. You reduce individuals too much and take away their individual qualities. We are not our types. "

if you analyze people enough, you will realize everything can be explained by psychology, that there simply are no magical personas, we are just mere attributes, live with it.

"We are not our types. Types describe us. MBTI type classifies people differently to how Jung classified people. I think like a Jungian Fi dominant with N as auxiliary. In MBTI letter code it would be INFP. I however score INTP on tests and I relate to the INTP profile. It makes me an INTP. I'm fully neither of these things. My being is too complex to be reduced into a 4 letter code. They can describe parts of me but they cannot describe the totality of me. I understand the system well enough to simply manipulate the 4 letter code so people can read whatever they want from it depending on how they understand the system. I know who I am and what type I am and how I operate. Having you telling me that I lack more personal insight into myself than you do is thus quite hilarious and ironic."

i think your reducing mbti into some ridiculous thing, into the level of astrology. and with enneagram and instincts combined to mbti, together they CAN explain the totality of you.

"9s don't fear negativity per se."

i do, maybe thats just 7w6 in my triad.

"I knew an ENTJ who was so/sx and he was nothing like that when healthy. You ascribe traits unrelated to the instincts."

all entjs ive came across have been over smiling people, who smile even more than i, so i wonder if youve even typed that person correctly.

"Feelings of worthlessness are not feeling I'd attribute to enneatype 9 but those who identify with their superego (1, 2 and 6) and to a degree, 4, since the 4 fear is of having no personal value or significance. In other words, they are worthless."

perhaps its nines disintegration to 6, but ive seen nines with ridiculous problems with self worth, to the level of mentioning it to people that they are worthless, sigh <.< and i do think ego enneas too tend to have kind of low self worth valuation.

"So you admit being a feeler. Good job."

theres a difference, i know im a feeler. i have even noticed, that my thinking too is inspiration based, i pretty much require that feeling of inspiration for anything to happen.

"You aren't coming off as sensitive. You are simply coming off as somewhat arrogant, having a simplistic point of view of theory and people as a whole with an overall attitude towards self-pity."

i said insenstivie, and i think you too seem to have a simplistic understanding of psychology. especially your tendency to ascribe too much onto single attributes of psychology which should be explained by other attributes or outright ignoring it thinking humans are somehow magically un-understandable.

 

[Entropic]

*facepalm* ................. your taking these theories far too copy paste method without thinking for yourself at all.

If you mean by thinking yourself is the same as coming up with wacky theories simply meant to fuel your own personal biases against people then no, I'm quite happy to not think for myself. If you mean the ability to think for yourself is to always critically examine the theory you're applying and realize its strengths and weaknesses so you know how to properly apply it then yes, I'm quite good at thinking for myself I think.

i can be both energized and de-energized by social interaction. it depends entirely whether my internal theories are able to keep up with the external stimuli. if yes, then im able to see what i gain by interacting with them and thus im making progress, if not, then ill be overwhelmed and will require a significant thinking phase after the conversation to regain my composure.

So in other words you still get energized by engaging with external stimuli.

i have tried, but it seems to mess up everything so nope.

I think this says more about your ability to handle a web browser.

no, it doesnt dictate what we think but the names of each instincts were chosen for very specific reasons.

Yes, very much so, because they dictate where we direct our energy and focus.

as in if i become anti social, im ignoring my primary instinct and depending too much on sx,

I don't think that's how it works. If you still have a sense of being anti-social (I really think you mean asocial by the way) when you do that, you are wary of your soc instinct still pulling. You aren't ignoring at all.

which is visible in me being simply too intense for others to bear and then they are all horrified of me.

You haven't met an sx first then.

and they hate how im ignorant of social rules/norms and all that other bullshit.

I don't think ignoring or not having a strong soc instinct has anything to do with the ability to follow social rules and norms. That if anything sounds more like an Fe thing.

if you analyze people enough, you will realize everything can be explained by psychology, that there simply are no magical personas, we are just mere attributes, live with it.

Only in the hypothetical scenario that we can come up with a grand theory that can do just that which we have yet to do. And even if we do come up with such a grand theory the question remains how applicable it is for us to understand each other and how we can use it on a daily basis.

i think your reducing mbti into some ridiculous thing, into the level of astrology. and with enneagram and instincts combined to mbti, together they CAN explain the totality of you.

Because ultimately the MBTI and enneagram theory are in fact no bettrer than astrology. Just that the ontological basis is a bit more sound which is why I'm in type theory since the theories they posit are plausible. Astrology not so much. And no, they can't explain the totality of me. Not even neuroscience can. In the future? Probably. But today? No.

i do, maybe thats just 7w6 in my triad.

7 fears pain and stagnation.

all entjs ive came across have been over smiling people, who smile even more than i, so i wonder if youve even typed that person correctly.

Very much typed correctly and probably an enneatype 1 and an LIE-Te gamma type in socionics. The latter is a quadra hardly known for its exurbant and social atmosphere.

perhaps its nines disintegration to 6, but ive seen nines with ridiculous problems with self worth, to the level of mentioning it to people that they are worthless, sigh <.< and i do think ego enneas too tend to have kind of low self worth valuation.

I really don't think so because how we feel, identify our feelings and deal with our feelings has to do with our pathological coping mechanisms. Of course, a person with low self-esteem will not think highly of themselves but feelings of worth would still be framed within the neurotical mindset defined by one's type. And you're the one preaching for type being able to explain everything.

theres a difference, i know im a feeler. i have even noticed, that my thinking too is inspiration based, i pretty much require that feeling of inspiration for anything to happen.

And...?

i said insenstivie, and i think you too seem to have a simplistic understanding of psychology. especially your tendency to ascribe too much onto single attributes of psychology which should be explained by other attributes or outright ignoring it thinking humans are somehow magically un-understandable.

Projection much? What about the stuff you wrote about ISFPs before? It's a big difference being able to use and apply the the theory properly and another to not use it in a way it's not intended. You're doing the latter, I'm doing the former.

 

[Vilku]

If you mean by thinking yourself is the same as coming up with wacky theories simply meant to fuel your own personal biases against people then no, I'm quite happy to not think for myself. If you mean the ability to think for yourself is to always critically examine the theory you're applying and realize its strengths and weaknesses so you know how to properly apply it then yes, I'm quite good at thinking for myself I think.

So in other words you still get energized by engaging with external stimuli.

I think this says more about your ability to handle a web browser.


Yes, very much so, because they dictate where we direct our energy and focus.
I don't think that's how it works. If you still have a sense of being anti-social (I really think you mean asocial by the way) when you do that, you are wary of your soc instinct still pulling. You aren't ignoring at all.

You haven't met an sx first then.


Only in the hypothetical scenario that we can come up with a grand theory that can do just that which we have yet to do. And even if we do come up with such a grand theory the question remains how applicable it is for us to understand each other and how we can use it on a daily basis.

7 fears pain and stagnation.

Very much typed correctly and probably an enneatype 1 and an LIE-Te gamma type in socionics. The latter is a quadra hardly known for its exurbant and social atmosphere.

I really don't think so because how we feel, identify our feelings and deal with our feelings has to do with our pathological coping mechanisms. Of course, a person with low self-esteem will not think highly of themselves but feelings of worth would still be framed within the neurotical mindset defined by one's type. And you're the one preaching for type being able to explain everything.

And...?

"I don't think ignoring or not having a strong soc instinct has anything to do with the ability to follow social rules and norms. That if anything sounds more like an Fe thing."

more like Te, fe's are more adaptable than the rule bound Te's.

"Because ultimately the MBTI and enneagram theory are in fact no bettrer than astrology. Just that the ontological basis is a bit more sound which is why I'm in type theory since the theories they posit are plausible. Astrology not so much. And no, they can't explain the totality of me. Not even neuroscience can. In the future? Probably. But today? No."

then your reducing psychology into some group crap level, where things happens by consensus. well, surprise, the people are stupid and they will never compare against personal understanding, which is free of group stupidity.

individual understanding is able to reach much higher heights than the inefficient method of having to approve everything with others. and by that individual understanding i _have_ summed up the totality of many people ive come across, and nearly even myself.

"Projection much? What about the stuff you wrote about ISFPs before? It's a big difference being able to use and apply the the theory properly and another to not use it in a way it's not intended. You're doing the latter, I'm doing the former."

that isfp's are the type weakest to psychological harm? its 100% truth, and we ALL have different weaknesses. why would you try to defy that? just ridiculous. =|

are you saying i shouldnt use these theories to expose peoples weaknesses? you do realize, that not knowing of their weaknesses would result in accidental hurt being caused. -_-

 

[Entropic]

more like Te, fe's are more adaptable than the rule bound Te's.

Te doesn't care about social rules in such a sense which was my entire point. Fe types are aware of the social rules exhibited by people around them and how to behave at any given moment in order to fit in. Te types really don't.

then your reducing psychology into some group crap level, where things happens by consensus. well, surprise, the people are stupid and they will never compare against personal understanding, which is free of group stupidity.

I fail to see the connection between people being stupid and psychology being crap. You are not seeing things for what they are.

individual understanding is able to reach much higher heights than the inefficient method of having to approve everything with others. and by that individual understanding i _have_ summed up the totality of many people ive come across, and nearly even myself.

Who said anything about approval? However, logical soundness is still paramount. None of what you present is logically sound.

that isfp's are the type weakest to psychological harm? its 100% truth, and we ALL have different weaknesses. why would you try to defy that? just ridiculous. =|

Because clearly I've met a lot of ISFPs who are nothing like you describe. Maybe you should start hanging out in the SP subforum, get an idea of how actual ISFPs are like.

are you saying i shouldnt use these theories to expose peoples weaknesses? you do realize, that not knowing of their weaknesses would result in accidental hurt being caused. -_-

You're not exposing weaknesses. You're perpetuating biased stereotypes.

 

[Vilku]

Te doesn't care about social rules in such a sense which was my entire point. Fe types are aware of the social rules exhibited by people around them and how to behave at any given moment in order to fit in. Te types really don't.

I fail to see the connection between people being stupid and psychology being crap. You are not seeing things for what they are.

"Who said anything about approval? However, logical soundness is still paramount. None of what you present is logically sound."

i dont see how that could be, in my head i can see my theory applying precisely consistently with the reality.

"Because clearly I've met a lot of ISFPs who are nothing like you describe. Maybe you should start hanging out in the SP subforum, get an idea of how actual ISFPs are like."

ive spent enough time with them face to face to be death bored of them, and by doing so ive came to know their hidden(from you that is) weakness.

i dont think there are exceptions to that rule, just cause you fail to see something doesnt mean it isnt there.

"You're not exposing weaknesses. You're perpetuating biased stereotypes."

stereotyping is one of the best forms to transist knowledge. and my stereotypes are correct.

 

[Entropic]

i dont see how that could be, in my head i can see my theory applying precisely consistently with the reality.

A theory doesn't mean much if it's unable to logically explain the reality it actually attempts to explain.

ive spent enough time with them face to face to be death bored of them, and by doing so ive came to know their hidden(from you that is) weakness.

Considering that I doubt your ability to properly type other people or your ability to even fully comprehend the theory as presented by you in this thread, this doesn't mean or say anything. I want to see you tell a CP6 ISFP in their face that they're weak and hate violence. The results would be quite humurous. It's also interesting to note that the socionics description of the ISFP is a type that's described as physically aggressive when they need to be so not even other type theories agree with your assertions.

i dont think there are exceptions to that rule, just cause you fail to see something doesnt mean it isnt there.

Because you're mind has an extroverted bias. You're an extrovert. Just because you haven't observed it, it doesn't mean it's not true or doesn't exist. It's fallacious inductive logic.

stereotyping is one of the best forms to transist knowledge. and my stereotypes are correct.

They're not even correct which makes this even more hilarious.

 

[Vilku]

A theory doesn't mean much if it's unable to logically explain the reality it actually attempts to explain.



Because you're mind has an extroverted bias. You're an extrovert. Just because you haven't observed it, it doesn't mean it's not true or doesn't exist. It's fallacious inductive logic.
They're not even correct which makes this even more hilarious.

"Considering that I doubt your ability to properly type other people or your ability to even fully comprehend the theory as presented by you in this thread, this doesn't mean or say anything. I want to see you tell a CP6 ISFP in their face that they're weak and hate violence. The results would be quite humurous. It's also interesting to note that the socionics description of the ISFP is a type that's described as physically aggressive when they need to be so not even other type theories agree with your assertions."

yeah yeah, i know that, and have suffered enough at the isfp's fists cause of their damned weak mind which produces horror theories of what other people must be thinking of them even if i couldnt care less to think of them.

and do you really expect any information trasnsaction work if you drop into the level of smartass? well guess what, surprise, nothing works then.

 

[Flatlander]

yeah yeah, i know that, and have suffered enough at the isfp's fists cause of their damned weak mind

Do you think there exists any mind with no weakness?

Why do you think about or study enneagram, MBTI, or Jung?

 

[Vilku]

Do you think there exists any mind with no weakness?

Why do you think about or study enneagram, MBTI, or Jung?

everyone is weak, just in different ways. we are all humans, animals, after all.

according to bliss streams words of ennea 9w1 so sx's, we tend to satisfy our lack of identity with either by building a character or endlessly devouring in self analysis, ive been through the first and now im going through the second, here the article i quoted: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...bliss-streams-descriptions-9w1-stackings.html

i just have an endless need to understand the reality, its rather shame cause i can never truly succeed in my goal and thus my life is just wasted. maybe i should try to get used to the feeling of mystery.. but still, im rather proud of the progress i make, even if futile and might not necessarily aid me in being better me.

often i find psychology offers inspiration for self growth by finding new things about myself, like the most recent discovery is about how i can use all of my tritypes at the same time, to make them work as a team rather than slicing my head into pieces. and same way i see this state of flow having connection to my functions, that in the state my data seamlessly flows through all of my functions equally rather than using one function more than another.

i believe this state is the key to progress and enlightenment. the hardest part is in maintaining it, not finding it.

 

[Thalassa]

Wait---you think of ENTP as a very masculine type?

 

[Thalassa]

ERM.. isfp's are supersensitive to imaginative things,

Yeah...

they are the people who "educate" people not to watch violence cause they themselves cant stand it. they are the people who hit others because their ego has been hurt cause someone smiled at them? dont you think THAT is seriously ridiculously weak?

HOLD UP NOW.

girly is less mature than feminity, feminity is more sexualistic in its quality and a bit bitchy.

define feminity? well the classical chrisstian idealization is fairly accurate and broadly accepted as _the_ feminity. or alternatively, any female infj.

i think its you here who doesnt understand mbti.

INFJ is the pinnacle of femininity?

I thought INFP men had a harder time, last time I checked. And women are most likely to be SFJs, SFPs, and ENFPs. Yes, ENFPs make up about 10% of the womanly population.

 

[Flatlander]

everyone is weak, just in different ways. we are all humans, animals, after all.

If this is truly so, then why would you demonize one weakness over another? How do you find that elements of this system merit ranking among each other? At least, that's how I interpreted your idea of evil instinctual stackings, like they were somehow beneath the others - am I wrong?

And then, how would you have the audacity to call one MBTI type (ISFP) weak-minded? When the reality is that we all have some sort of weakness, and this entire thing was designed to show what the weaknesses and strengths are for every type?

I guess what I'm getting at is that there's no one person without weakness, including yourself. And there's no type that doesn't have the potential to be evil in another's eyes, so your perspective on that front is not somehow special.

according to bliss streams words of ennea 9w1 so sx's, we tend to satisfy our lack of identity with either by building a character or endlessly devouring in self analysis, ive been through the first and now im going through the second, here the article i quoted: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...bliss-streams-descriptions-9w1-stackings.html

i just have an endless need to understand the reality, its rather shame cause i can never truly succeed in my goal and thus my life is just wasted. maybe i should try to get used to the feeling of mystery.. but still, im rather proud of the progress i make, even if futile and might not necessarily aid me in being better me.

often i find psychology offers inspiration for self growth by finding new things about myself, like the most recent discovery is about how i can use all of my tritypes at the same time, to make them work as a team rather than slicing my head into pieces. and same way i see this state of flow having connection to my functions, that in the state my data seamlessly flows through all of my functions equally rather than using one function more than another.

i believe this state is the key to progress and enlightenment. the hardest part is in maintaining it, not finding it.

That's fair. Internal enlightenment is worth seeking. I'd caution, though, that if your perception becomes out of variance with the actual state of external reality then your enlightenment might be false.

 

[mintleaf]

according to bliss streams words of ennea 9w1 so sx's, we tend to satisfy our lack of identity with either by building a character or endlessly devouring in self analysis, ive been through the first and now im going through the second, here the article i quoted: http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-f...bliss-streams-descriptions-9w1-stackings.html

i just have an endless need to understand the reality, its rather shame cause i can never truly succeed in my goal and thus my life is just wasted. maybe i should try to get used to the feeling of mystery.. but still, im rather proud of the progress i make, even if futile and might not necessarily aid me in being better me.

often i find psychology offers inspiration for self growth by finding new things about myself, like the most recent discovery is about how i can use all of my tritypes at the same time, to make them work as a team rather than slicing my head into pieces. and same way i see this state of flow having connection to my functions, that in the state my data seamlessly flows through all of my functions equally rather than using one function more than another.

i believe this state is the key to progress and enlightenment. the hardest part is in maintaining it, not finding it.

I'm 9w1 so/sx as well, and I personally haven't found those methods to be very helpful. If anything, self-analysis exacerbates the sense of weak identity. If it works for you, that's great, but I always feel more whole and real when I've fixed my attention outside of myself. Moderate self-analysis is necessary, of course, but I really got the impression that Bliss Stream was referring to 9w1 so/sx's tendency towards intense solipsism as ultimately useless and damaging.

 

[Vilku]

Wait---you think of ENTP as a very masculine type?

i know sensors have a completely different idea of masculinity, but i find entp's protectiveness and all that nicely treating as masculine. it makes me feel appreciated, and like i was a female, and thats the way i like it. its the masculine ones role to treat the feminine partner with utmost care. just like those male birds who must build magnificent nests to amaze the female birds, and then some dancing to ensure amazement.. =) <3

"INFJ is the pinnacle of femininity?

I thought INFP men had a harder time,"

from the only male infp ive met, i would say he is indeed VERY girly, but thats different than feminity.
i dont know which has it harder, but i think the primary problem for me having those qualities as a male is, that its simply not appreciated, so i feel like i must always pretend to be someone else than who i am.

and yeah, i think infj is the pinnacle of feminity.

just look at the female infj's, they represent that bitchy lion in the nature documents whose angry and not afraid to defend herself from a bit too enthusiastic male lions. and all female infj's ive come across have that feminine intensity to their eyes.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there's no one person without weakness, including yourself. And there's no type that doesn't have the potential to be evil in another's eyes, so your perspective on that front is not somehow special.



That's fair. Internal enlightenment is worth seeking. I'd caution, though, that if your perception becomes out of variance with the actual state of external reality then your enlightenment might be false.

"If this is truly so, then why would you demonize one weakness over another? How do you find that elements of this system merit ranking among each other? At least, that's how I interpreted your idea of evil instinctual stackings, like they were somehow beneath the others - am I wrong?"

morally speaking yes, but i do acknowledge the evil instincts have their own virtue in which the moralistic instincts rank below them, productivity.

"And then, how would you have the audacity to call one MBTI type (ISFP) weak-minded? When the reality is that we all have some sort of weakness, and this entire thing was designed to show what the weaknesses and strengths are for every type?"


isfp's weakness is particularly one that annoys me the most, cause i DONT want to hurt them, but occasionally i do, cause i wouldnt have thought anyone could be hurt by something i would never consider hurftful.

i do think we all should respect the others weaknesses. its foolish to believe to be somehow immune and that itd justify doing evil.

 

[Flatlander]

morally speaking yes, but i do acknowledge the evil instincts have their own virtue in which the moralistic instincts rank below them, productivity.

How did you define your morals, to be able to assume whole groups of people evil or good?

Are there circumstances in which you would overturn your label of evil for an individual with one of your forbidden stackings?

 

[Kierva]

Yes, it is true that 100% of so/sx's are feminine. It is an impossibility that they could ever be even slightly masculine.

You beat me to it.

 

[Giggly]

I'd have thought e2 would be the most "feminine" (at least stereotypically so).

Which e type do you think is the most masculine? Just curious.

 

[gromit]

Which e type do you think is the most masculine? Just curious.

Hm I don't know!

 

[Flatlander]

Which e type do you think is the most masculine? Just curious.

Hm I don't know!

If you read Character and Neurosis (and if I'm recalling correctly, feel free to correct me if I'm not), Naranjo posits that types 1-4 are on the stereotypically feminine spectrum, and 5-8 on the stereotypically masculine, with 9 left out. Not to say there can't be masculinity in 1-4 and femininity in 5-8, because the whole concept works like a yin-yang, but still.. the idea is out there.

I think he points to 2 and 4 as the most effeminate types out of 1-4. And I think 8 would be one of the most masculine of 5-8.