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  1. #51
    Infinite Bubble
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    Your stereotyping is just atrocious. Some absurdities from throughout the thread:

    - very masculine type, entp,(male)
    - just cause 7w6 too is the most feminine enneagram and so sx the most feminine instinct.
    - although 7w8 too has that boyish childish gleam to them, although not feminine. 9w8 isnt really that feminine either, more like gayish.
    - even one of the most psychologically vulnerable types, isfp, appears masculine with that enneagram.(8) although them being super sensitive psychologically is ridiculous.
    - i too have a masculine so sx friend. but thats only because of him being an entp and 6w7 Nothing to do with anything whatsoever.
    - isfp's are supersensitive to imaginative things, they are the people who "educate" people not to watch violence cause they themselves cant stand it. they are the people who hit others because their ego has been hurt cause someone smiled at them? dont you think THAT is seriously ridiculously weak? Yes, of course all ISFPs are like that.
    - isfp's are still the most psychologically sensitive type.
    - i also think my positivism is more directed towards my feelings than thinking. Positivism has nothing to do with either.
    - i think your reducing mbti into some ridiculous thing, into the level of astrology. Woefully ironic.
    - then your reducing psychology into some group crap level Woefully ironic.
    - more like Te, fe's are more adaptable than the rule bound Te's.
    - that isfp's are the type weakest to psychological harm? its 100% truth What is your evidence to support its "100% truth"?
    - and my stereotypes are correct. Needlessly arrogant without anything to back it up.
    - but i find entp's protectiveness and all that nicely treating as masculine.
    Stop using stereotypes as a basis for everything you come up with. It is looking over the important quirks of each individual and substituting for a broad term generalisation that is often not even rooted in reality, and a lot of the time formed by bad assumptions and misunderstanding. It’s like being an outsider and not seeing the intricate inner works; looking out of the window and trying to see into the distance on a thick foggy day; “well, I can see its all white, therefore everywhere outside of this house is the colour white”. Without going outside and exploring what’s past the thin surface, this person may well believe the entire world is completely white. One colour.

    It is true that one looking at a set of creatures, as an outsider, a pattern is easily perceived. Take wolves as an example: there is a pack hierarchy, with an alpha, and wolves have specialised body language - ears back, tail between legs etc, to act as submissive position. We’re outsiders to the wolves, and we can see that. What we fail to notice is that each wolf is an individual itself, and the species is not one giant entity. This is akin to what stereotyping is.

    Say there were a species of fairly intelligent life-forms looking down on humans. They would easily pick up a pattern of behaviour. They could also make accurate assumptions about us. They could almost be said to be "stereotyping", and it would be true on a broad scale, at least to them, because they would have an inability – or at least a harder time identifying – individual differences. People who stereotype (and mean it) are just as ignorant as the aliens, because they treat the said people as a separate species, without knowing its true identity.

    Stereotyping is okay, as long as you are aware that that’s all it is, and many exceptions occur; in fact every single individual probably has at least one exception each that contradicts the said stereotype. Not only are your core arguments based on bad stereotyping, but they are extremely warped and very specific, which contradicts the idea of generalising entirely, yet you seem to be managing to do it anyway.

    Also, stop using such phrases as “evil”; concepts like this are completely subjective and generally worthless to anyone in this kind of discussion. Your “evil” might be your delusions about a type; my “evil” might be mass murder or rape. Guess what, I say gravity is “evil” because I lost a tasty ham and avocado sandwich to a dirty carpet when eating lunch. And what use is that to anyone else but me?

  2. #52
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    well.. each instinct category i mentioned both have a product they wish others abided, for moral instincts its their morality and productive instincts its productivity..

    its simple, they both just have a different preference they believe to be of more importance than the other ones product.
    Okay, let's ask something different:

    How do "moral" instincts lead to morality - what about them in particular makes people moral, in your view?

    How do "productive" instincts lead to productivity - what about them makes a person want to produce, in your view?

    I'm really curious about the theoretical foundation of your thoughts, because it sounds like a whole different view from anything I've ever read in an Enneagram book or thought of myself. I look at the instincts as simple proclivities to defend (and defend through) certain aspects of life, nothing to do with morality or productivity except through other tendencies in the individual.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Your stereotyping is just atrocious. Some absurdities from throughout the thread:



    Stop using stereotypes as a basis for everything you come up with. It is looking over the important quirks of each individual and substituting for a broad term generalisation that is often not even rooted in reality, and a lot of the time formed by bad assumptions and misunderstanding. It’s like being an outsider and not seeing the intricate inner works; looking out of the window and trying to see into the distance on a thick foggy day; “well, I can see its all white, therefore everywhere outside of this house is the colour white”. Without going outside and exploring what’s past the thin surface, this person may well believe the entire world is completely white. One colour.

    It is true that one looking at a set of creatures, as an outsider, a pattern is easily perceived. Take wolves as an example: there is a pack hierarchy, with an alpha, and wolves have specialised body language - ears back, tail between legs etc, to act as submissive position. We’re outsiders to the wolves, and we can see that. What we fail to notice is that each wolf is an individual itself, and the species is not one giant entity. This is akin to what stereotyping is.

    Say there were a species of fairly intelligent life-forms looking down on humans. They would easily pick up a pattern of behaviour. They could also make accurate assumptions about us. They could almost be said to be "stereotyping", and it would be true on a broad scale, at least to them, because they would have an inability – or at least a harder time identifying – individual differences. People who stereotype (and mean it) are just as ignorant as the aliens, because they treat the said people as a separate species, without knowing its true identity.

    Stereotyping is okay, as long as you are aware that that’s all it is, and many exceptions occur; in fact every single individual probably has at least one exception each that contradicts the said stereotype. Not only are your core arguments based on bad stereotyping, but they are extremely warped and very specific, which contradicts the idea of generalising entirely, yet you seem to be managing to do it anyway.

    - that isfp's are the type weakest to psychological harm? its 100% truth

    "What is your evidence to support its "100% truth"?"

    the reality, i think anyone is capable of seeing what i see if they just simply look at the same things.

    i base my stereotyping on traits that create specific kinds of quakities, _of course_ the qualities will play differently for each individual, but considering its based on an inherent quality of a type, then there must be a quality _akin_ if not exactly same to all if them.

    "Also, stop using such phrases as “evil”; concepts like this are completely subjective and generally worthless to anyone in this kind of discussion. Your “evil” might be your delusions about a type; my “evil” might be mass murder or rape. Guess what, I say gravity is “evil” because I lost a tasty ham and avocado sandwich to a dirty carpet when eating lunch. And what use is that to anyone else but me?"

    its not subjective when there are whole groups of people who think that way. and even if they dont, they would if they knew what i know.
    although you gave me an idea, i think itd be interesting to investigate what people think as evil and compare the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Okay, let's ask something different:

    How do "moral" instincts lead to morality - what about them in particular makes people moral, in your view?

    How do "productive" instincts lead to productivity - what about them makes a person want to produce, in your view?

    I'm really curious about the theoretical foundation of your thoughts, because it sounds like a whole different view from anything I've ever read in an Enneagram book or thought of myself. I look at the instincts as simple proclivities to defend (and defend through) certain aspects of life, nothing to do with morality or productivity except through other tendencies in the individual.
    moral instincts have a desire in their heart to be good people, even when they fail at it. (like me currently, i become socially indifferent in a nine like way, that i just couldnt care to of coming socially acceptable ways at all, of course i dont tend to admit it to myself cause the desire to be good is so strong in me that i go into nine like denial about the issue. however, the issue arises on me time after time when ive broken some social etiquette so people are just mad at me for it. much like in this thread.)

    same way productive instincts treat productivity as the holy rule about existence. they idealize productivity. like american dream, is so sp idealization of productivity, and the pride in their country which is all about capitalism, which is productive but not in a good way..

    much like that, sx so, (china) has idealized productivity to such an extense that even children work there. (UGH, my word repair thing is saying i write extense wrong, how the hell is it written? >=[
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  4. #54
    Infinite Bubble
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    the reality, i think anyone is capable of seeing what i see if they just simply look at the same things.
    Why would everyone want to follow the same perspective as you and look at the same things? Every single individuals perspective is different, so what makes yours so special? There is no objective "reality"; it is subjective to human experience.

    i base my stereotyping on traits that create specific kinds of quakities, _of course_ the qualities will play differently for each individual, but considering its based on an inherent quality of a type, then there must be a quality _akin_ if not exactly same to all if them.
    I'd love to hear what these traits actually are.

    its not subjective when there are whole groups of people who think that way. and even if they dont, they would if they knew what i know.
    And please enlighten me on what you know. Don't say anything along the lines of "experience with the specified types".

    Also, I don't think you're an INFJ.

  5. #55
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    moral instincts have a desire in their heart to be good people, even when they fail at it. (like me currently, i become socially indifferent in a nine like way, that i just couldnt care to of coming socially acceptable ways at all, of course i dont tend to admit it to myself cause the desire to be good is so strong in me that i go into nine like denial about the issue. however, the issue arises on me time after time when ive broken some social etiquette so people are just mad at me for it. much like in this thread.)

    same way productive instincts treat productivity as the holy rule about existence. they idealize productivity. like american dream, is so sp idealization of productivity, and the pride in their country which is all about capitalism, which is productive but not in a good way..

    much like that, sx so, (china) has idealized productivity to such an extense that even children work there. (UGH, my word repair thing is saying i write extense wrong, how the hell is it written? >=[
    The problem with looking at countries or groups as exemplar of an enneagram stacking is multifold.

    One, the country probably still contains people of every conceivable stacking and type. The apparent behavior of the group may be based on the few components that stand out and not what the majority actually thinks and does.

    Two, even going with that idea, the country also has a stereotypical enneagram core. There are cores that may tend to be more concerned with morality (superego or superego-prone) and cores that may tend to be less concerned with it (id etc.) If you want to say, for instance, South Korea as a nation appears to have an so/sp bent as a 3w4 core (that'd be my typing of what I've seen of its modern culture), then fine, but you can't use that to exemplify the actions and tendencies of an actual so/sp 3w4 core person because individual people think and act vastly differently from one another dependent on other factors in their lives, and their personal growth even along the lines of type. People themselves are dynamic and diverse, more so than the stereotype of a nation or group. So to conclude something about a group of individuals on this basis, or even just their tendencies, is incorrect.

    Along these lines, even looking at individuals as exemplar isn't correct. You could say that one person in particular is archetypal of a type, but you can't say they are exemplar, because so many people exist out there who aren't archetypal - they grow, they haven't undergone trauma to evoke the depth of their type, they have opinions and ideas that shift, et cetera.

    What you've done in this thread and the other isn't breaking social etiquette, so much as claiming something that is illogical. First, the association of "production" with evil, which doesn't make sense in its own right unless you managed to define "evil" in relation to it in a way that is sensible. Second, the association of instinctual stackings with production vs. morality, when production (and destruction) actually takes place or has bearing in every area of human life, including morality; so much of human life is fabricated in its own right. Third, the failure to even take into account enneagram core in considering how stackings manifest in different people. I could go on, but there's just too much diversity and possibility in type for me to list, that you don't seem to have considered.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Why would everyone want to follow the same perspective as you and look at the same things? Every single individuals perspective is different, so what makes yours so special? There is no objective "reality"; it is subjective to human experience.



    I'd love to hear what these traits actually are.



    And please enlighten me on what you know. Don't say anything along the lines of "experience with the specified types".

    Also, I don't think you're an INFJ.
    there is an objective reality, its right out there, if you only are willing to drop your opinionated delusions to see the truth.. (its also called rationality, and science. i dont even want to know the alternative to it!)

    you dont think im an infj? based on some silly text written in forums, you _claim_ to read a person without even seeing their face? YEAH.. RIIGHT! now whose the deluded one here?

    next thing, youll suggest you used telepathy to do it, right? -_-
    and dont even START telling me how astrology dictates my life..

    but yeah, ive noticed intj's have those irrational qualities. (so yes i just did say i approve your typing.)

    @Flatlander

    " I could go on, but there's just too much diversity and possibility in type for me to list, that you don't seem to have considered."

    how came you to the conclusion i didnt consider those and many other things? i see each trait as a separetable variable and together, i can calculate people like mathematics by simply combining the traits and that way, i learn to see what each trait really does.

    why would i list my calculations, when i can just give the conclusions? (stereotypes)

    even from the first years in school, i have always ignored the teachers wishes of including the path i went to get the results of my calculations, why? cause that process just happens too intuitively and is ultimately irrelevant.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  7. #57
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    @Flatlander

    " I could go on, but there's just too much diversity and possibility in type for me to list, that you don't seem to have considered."

    how came you to the conclusion i didnt consider those and many other things? i see each trait as a separetable variable and together, i can calculate people like mathematics by simply combining the traits and that way, i learn to see what each trait really does.

    why would i list my calculations, when i can just give the conclusions? (stereotypes)

    even from the first years in school, i have always ignored the teachers wishes of including the path i went to get the results of my calculations, why? cause that process just happens too intuitively and is ultimately irrelevant.
    You would list them so others can gauge the correctness of your thinking. Otherwise, you speak, as a vacuum, into a vacuum.

    As for how I came to the conclusion, I don't see these ideas anywhere in your reckoning. I see too much certainty.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    You would list them so others can gauge the correctness of your thinking. Otherwise, you speak, as a vacuum, into a vacuum.

    As for how I came to the conclusion, I don't see these ideas anywhere in your reckoning. I see too much certainty.
    people process information differently, for me it just as happens to be so that i skip the obvious parts such as how the conclusions are reached, its the ansers that matter.

    explaining my intuition would take forever, cause theres just too much to it.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  9. #59
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    people process information differently, for me it just as happens to be so that i skip the obvious parts such as how the conclusions are reached, its the ansers that matter.

    explaining my intuition would take forever, cause theres just too much to it.
    This excuse only serves to push you further back into the incommunicate. Not much point in talking with you, then.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  10. #60
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    repeat
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

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