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  1. #31
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ All 4s do whiny (and so do some other types... 6 martyrs, for instance), but supposedly so-dom have a special pathetic brand of it.
    SP are "wry" I guess. Pretty sure I complain still, anyhow, but it's more sx ranting than whining, usually. And Grace Coddington is .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #32
    brainheart
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    I found this today, might be a good addition: http://blog.theenneagraminbusiness.c...gram-part.html

    I found this part particularly interesting:

    Do We Have Only One Subtype?
    Claudio would say yes and no. What he actually said is that one of the three subtypes is generally dormant throughout our life (that is, it is the instinctual area in which we hardly pay attention to our needs), and two of them are more activated (although the subtype behavior is a neurotic way of getting our needs met in these areas). With the two activated subtypes, one is dominant, although when we were younger, the other activated subtype may have been more dominant than the one we manifest as we get older.

    And here, from the same blog, although I notice she refers to the self pres four as reckless/dauntless while I'm pretty sure Naranjo has since changed it to tenacious (http://blog.theenneagraminbusiness.c...eation-of.html):

    The Self-Preserving Subtypes
    Ones: “Worry” | Twos: “Me First/Privilege” | Threes: “Security” | Fours: “Reckless/Dauntless” | Fives: “Castle” | Sixes: “Warmth” | Sevens: “Keepers of the Castle” | Eights: “Survival” | Nines: “Appetite”

    Naranjo says that all self-preserving subtypes are less trusting and more guarded than the other two subtypes of their type. This can be read in the names for each self-preserving subtype, names handed down from Oscar Ichazo, originally in Spanish and now in English. Their concern (valence/attachment) with trust and self-protection is reflected in the names, even Fours who are reckless about security issues.

    The Social Subtypes
    Ones: “Non-adaptability” | Twos: “Ambition” | Threes: “Prestige” | Fours: “Shame” | Fives: “Totem” | Sixes: “Duty” | Sevens: “Sacrifice” | Eights: “Solidarity” | Nines: “Participation”

    Naranjo says that the social subtypes of all subtypes are the most intellectual versions of that type. The social subtypes also all have energy flowing toward or away from social groups. Or, they may show a great deal of ambivalence about groups, but there is lots of energy in this ambivalence.

    The One-to-One Subtypes
    Ones: “Zeal” | Twos: “Aggression/Seduction” | Threes: “Masculinity/Femininity” | Fours: “Competition” | Fives: “Confidence” | Sixes: “Strength/Beauty” | Sevens: “Suggestibility” | Eights: “Possession” | Nines: “Fusion”

    The one-to-one subtypes like (love) to engage intensely with one other person, and Naranjo describes them as the most emotional of the three subtypes.

  3. #33
    brainheart
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    And then I found this!

    http://beatricechestnut.com/enneagram/

    Scroll down and there is a one-hour long talk about the 27 subtypes!

    Definitely worth the listen, I think.

  4. #34
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i generally think of so types as the pleasers. they like to please other people. they are inclusive in their decision-making processes. with so/sps, i think they accept that all things in life require negotiation and commit to a process of negotiating in their interactions with others. committing to community is the upside of "cliquey," whereas "objectifying" is the downside of sx only desiring and focusing on exactly what it wants and nothing more (just as "aloof" is the downside of sp disengagement and insularity).

    so cliquey, aloof, and objectifying? or community-oriented, earthy, and passionate? it just depends on which direction the arrows are coming from. and it's also part of the family roles we grew into and that exist beyond us too, at least until we grow into the whole of ourselves.
    I'm a bit uncertain about all this. You may be right about So-first being pleasers - I really couldn't say for sure either way. I don't really think of it that way but it may be subconscious. I'm also not sure if I would say "cliquey-ness" is associated with So in general. People are herd animals. They want to fit in and assert their place in the world by being part of something; sometimes excluding others out of personal insecurity. I don't think this sort of behaviour could be simply put down to the Social instinct (not that you're necessarily saying that). It's also a flaw I don't identify much with - whether I'm in a healthy or unhealthy state.

    It's hard to pick a single flaw to characterise the Social instinct, because it's a strangely contradictory instinct. It's about being one of the herd and at the same time values those that stand out. But then perhaps all three instincts have a contradictory quality to them. If anything, the problem with it is putting too much stock in others - perhaps more specifically, in needing the approval of others, I dare say.

    i used to demonize it, and it's still difficult for me to predict or understand the process so types go through in real-time, but i'm starting to see why it's so important, necessary, and valuable. some better descriptions don't just portray so/sp types as status-driven social climbers. they instead focus on the way that they truly care about competency and contribution to the group (and the values that are used to assess that: fairness, reciprocity, loyalty, consistency, delivering on promises, and integrity). most of the ones i know work really hard! and while they may identify with concrete symbolizations of those underlying values, so do we all. theirs are just generally more organizationally/role driven, rather than sx prizes which are more about being as resource intensive as possible (when not just image-based focuses on total change potential), or sp comforts which are more about creating as much ease and ergonomicness as possible.
    Again I'm uncertain about this. You do pay a complement but I'm not sure if it's an entirely accurate one. Perhaps some So/Sp types are like this but not all. I do believe in those values but I wouldn't say that I apply them exactly in the way you're implying. If I work hard it is usually more for my own sake rather than a sense of duty or obligation to others. I can obsess over getting something right to the point where no one else even notices or cares about what I think needs to be improved, and people are telling me to stop and let it go.

    I think you are right about competency and contribution to the group being important - for me it's more specifically about the desire to be valued.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    My issues tend to be that, first of all, I do a ton of introspection and then I research the hell out of anything that interests me so I go in there equipped with all of this information and things I've considered and so when a therapist slowly explains things to me I already know, all I can think about is how pointless it is. Or even worse, when I mention something and they don't know what I'm talking about. So yes, there's an arrogance. (like you say, Southern Kross, fours' self awareness can leave a therapist with little to do at times and hence their frustration, I imagine.)
    Such a 4w5.

    I totally know what you mean - I do the same thing. Whenever I go to the doctor it's only as a last resort because if I can diagnose it and solve the problem myself I bloody well will. If I do go, I basically tell the doctor what I think is the possible diagnosis(es) is/are. I can only imagine how impossible I'd be with a therapist. I consider myself an expert in my own feelings and within 5 minutes would be talking like I knew more than someone with an lengthy education in that area.

    Then there is the therapist model of constantly telling you how normal your problems are and how there are others who have it far worse, which I guess makes most people feel better? I hear that and I just shut down because obviously this person doesn't have a single clue about me. Hearing I'm 'just like everybody else' makes me want to die.
    I would be the same. Obviously this is something 4s have to get past, but that's no way to remedy it. I just wouldn't want to hear that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I hate to see the whiny thing be exclusively associated with so 4. I've seen sp 4s do whiny too. It may not appear that way outwardly, but it's still there, just indirectly expressed, and when you get close to them you'll see it.
    TBH I don't really consider myself all that outwardly whiny really, and think the whole whiny 4 stereotype is exaggerated. I totally admit to being so on the inside, but I usually keep that to myself partly because I couldn't bear to be thought of as that. But if you set up a situation like therapy where a 4 is meant to be open about themselves and they express their whiny, interior thoughts and then you judge them for it - that's f-ed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    The Social Subtypes
    Ones: “Non-adaptability” | Twos: “Ambition” | Threes: “Prestige” | Fours: “Shame” | Fives: “Totem” | Sixes: “Duty” | Sevens: “Sacrifice” | Eights: “Solidarity” | Nines: “Participation”

    Naranjo says that the social subtypes of all subtypes are the most intellectual versions of that type. The social subtypes also all have energy flowing toward or away from social groups. Or, they may show a great deal of ambivalence about groups, but there is lots of energy in this ambivalence.
    I approve so much of this description - especially the part about being the most intellectual type.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #35
    brainheart
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    The social subtypes also all have energy flowing toward or away from social groups. Or, they may show a great deal of ambivalence about groups, but there is lots of energy in this ambivalence.
    I know I posted this quote yesterday but I can't emphasize it enough. This is exactly how I feel. After I felt like puking about it, I couldn't help but accept that social seems to be dominant for me. My sexual is just really strong so it can be hard to tell at times. The fact that I'd rather be sx/so than so/sx strikes me as the icing on the cake that I'm so/sx. I'm really ashamed about being a social dom, which isn't because I hate social doms or look down on them- I'm married to one- but because it's where my deepest insecurities reside/ the things I dislike most about myself.

    I have such a love/hate/ambivalent relationship with society, people, groups. I think as a 4w5 it can feel especially conflicting because here I am, a very Bohemian/iconoclastic type, and yet I find myself always considering the greater group/ how my actions affect others. It's weird swinging between sexual and social, too. One part of me is very brazen and shameless while one part of me can barely talk to the cashier at the grocery store.

    A long while ago I read some instinct descriptions (I think it was Helen Palmer) and the social fit me remarkably well but I dismissed it because I didn't relate to any of the non etype specific social descriptions, like they were the furthest thing from me. I've also heard that social fours typically don't see themselves as social types initially and they typically identify equally with self pres and sexual instead. It's even been said that if, as a four, you don't immediately identify with self pres or sexual you are probably a social four. (I, for one, thought for sure I must be sx/sp or sp/sx and constantly oscillated between the two, then I started flirting with the possibility of the social instinct but it seemed... ridiculous.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm a bit uncertain about all this. You may be right about So-first being pleasers - I really couldn't say for sure either way. I don't really think of it that way but it may be subconscious. I'm also not sure if I would say "cliquey-ness" is associated with So in general. People are herd animals. They want to fit in and assert their place in the world by being part of something; sometimes excluding others out of personal insecurity. I don't think this sort of behaviour could be simply put down to the Social instinct (not that you're necessarily saying that). It's also a flaw I don't identify much with - whether I'm in a healthy or unhealthy state.
    I have never been a cliquey person, never ever ever. I hate categorizing and grouping people, it's abhorrent to me. I see people as individuals, that is unless I'm really irritated about say, the trash in the creek that goes by our house. Then I find myself ranting about how much people suck. I tend to have a lot of misanthropic internal rants when I'm walking around by myself. I will also read something in the paper and yell out to no one in particular, "Why do people do things like this? Why don't they do it like this (and then I'll make a suggestion) instead?" And then my daughter will say, "Mom, you should be in charge of everything." And then I'll say, "I know. I should be." But then of course I don't follow up and do anything. (I think this is pretty classic so/sx four. Social criticism plus arrogance plus flaky.) I feel extremely separate from 'people', yet inextricably connected at the same time.

    Am I a pleaser? I think I can seem a little nine-ish in that I'm fairly accommodating and adaptable. I tend to sacrifice certain things that matter to me for the sake of family harmony, and then feel a little resentful about it. I think I can really seem kind of nine/two/six-ish at times even though I am very much a four. I can be a bit of a martyr, because suffering is what I do.

    It's hard to pick a single flaw to characterise the Social instinct, because it's a strangely contradictory instinct. It's about being one of the herd and at the same time values those that stand out. But then perhaps all three instincts have a contradictory quality to them. If anything, the problem with it is putting too much stock in others - perhaps more specifically, in needing the approval of others, I dare say.
    I don't feel the need for approval so much as... I just don't want to upset/hurt people/harm the planet. I want to be an honorable person. But at the same time I want to be unflinchingly honest in my art. So that's my constant internal conflict. How do I be my honest, authentic, dark self and share it with the world as I feel compelled to and not hurt people who matter to me? (By people I mean loved ones, not strangers.) So I don't share and I feel unfulfilled. (I have considered a pen name. Anonymity takes all those self conscious feelings away.) I also have my very sexual instinct moments where I am totally shameless and then I feel so ashamed afterwards. The swing between shameless to shameful can be paralyzing.


    TBH I don't really consider myself all that outwardly whiny really, and think the whole whiny 4 stereotype is exaggerated. I totally admit to being so on the inside, but I usually keep that to myself partly because I couldn't bear to be thought of as that. But if you set up a situation like therapy where a 4 is meant to be open about themselves and they express their whiny, interior thoughts and then you judge them for it - that's f-ed up.
    I doubt most people would call me whiny, either. If anything they would probably say I don't share enough. If anything, I think the better exemplar of my social fourness is my self defeating/self sabotaging nature or the idea of "what's wrong with you is you think there's something wrong with you" (although I also have the sexual four- 'you are so damn amazing' thoughts as well). I also like when descriptions mention how social fours feel intense shame about not meeting their ideal vision of their self. That's me in spades.

    I approve so much of this description - especially the part about being the most intellectual type.
    I actually think I'm more emotional than intellectual, but I can see how I use my head to consider how my actions affect others, the planet, etc.


    EDIT: yeah, Helen Palmer. Here: http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/ex...subtypes-4.php

    Social: Shame/counter-shame

    In the social domain you easily can feel shame for not measuring up or being a “misfit.” You feel that your protective cover is removed and that your deficiencies or shortcomings will be exposed publicly. You mitigate your envy through shame. You want to hide your defects and deficiencies, keep your fatal flaws from being detected and avoid disgrace. Your shame also helps you feel or keep a connection to others: “They’ll notice me and my deficiencies, and I’ll matter.” This makes you feel special in the eyes of others. Shame also motivates you to do better – create an elegant image, produce pride of elitism, look unique and special, in short to develop counter-shame and a sense of honor for your integrity and what you do for the group. You may become an emotional truth-teller in the group. At your worst, shame can lead to retraction into self-absorption, depression or despair.

  6. #36
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I know I posted this quote yesterday but I can't emphasize it enough. This is exactly how I feel. After I felt like puking about it, I couldn't help but accept that social seems to be dominant for me. My sexual is just really strong so it can be hard to tell at times. The fact that I'd rather be sx/so than so/sx strikes me as the icing on the cake that I'm so/sx. I'm really ashamed about being a social dom, which isn't because I hate social doms or look down on them- I'm married to one- but because it's where my deepest insecurities reside/ the things I dislike most about myself.

    I have such a love/hate/ambivalent relationship with society, people, groups. I think as a 4w5 it can feel especially conflicting because here I am, a very Bohemian/iconoclastic type, and yet I find myself always considering the greater group/ how my actions affect others. It's weird swinging between sexual and social, too. One part of me is very brazen and shameless while one part of me can barely talk to the cashier at the grocery store.

    A long while ago I read some instinct descriptions (I think it was Helen Palmer) and the social fit me remarkably well but I dismissed it because I didn't relate to any of the non etype specific social descriptions, like they were the furthest thing from me. I've also heard that social fours typically don't see themselves as social types initially and they typically identify equally with self pres and sexual instead. It's even been said that if, as a four, you don't immediately identify with self pres or sexual you are probably a social four. (I, for one, thought for sure I must be sx/sp or sp/sx and constantly oscillated between the two, then I started flirting with the possibility of the social instinct but it seemed... ridiculous.)
    Oh, I didn't know you were thinking of jumping ship on Sx. Like I said there's a lot a shitty So descriptions out there, and then you read something and it all makes sense. Perhaps you did the same thing I did and identified with the secondary instinct before recognising the primary one.

    Have you read this one? This one really helped me:

    Social Fours: "Shame"
    Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

    • I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
    • I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
    • I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
    • I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
    • I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
    • I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
    • Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
    • I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.
    When I read that I went . Again, it's not 100% accurate, but the points that are accurate are very insightful.

    I have never been a cliquey person, never ever ever. I hate categorizing and grouping people, it's abhorrent to me.
    I've never been a cliquey person either. Why would I? I've always been shut out of them.

    I will also read something in the paper and yell out to no one in particular, "Why do people do things like this? Why don't they do it like this (and then I'll make a suggestion) instead?" And then my daughter will say, "Mom, you should be in charge of everything." And then I'll say, "I know. I should be." But then of course I don't follow up and do anything. (I think this is pretty classic so/sx four. Social criticism plus arrogance plus flaky.) I feel extremely separate from 'people', yet inextricably connected at the same time.
    Yep, that sounds like the social critic/commentator aspect.

    Am I a pleaser? I think I can seem a little nine-ish in that I'm fairly accommodating and adaptable. I tend to sacrifice certain things that matter to me for the sake of family harmony, and then feel a little resentful about it. I think I can really seem kind of nine/two/six-ish at times even though I am very much a four. I can be a bit of a martyr, because suffering is what I do.
    Yes, the Social instinct is about accommodation and adaptability in many ways. But what you're saying about being a martyr could be 4 disintegrating to 2.

    I don't feel the need for approval so much as... I just don't want to upset/hurt people/harm the planet. I want to be an honorable person. But at the same time I want to be unflinchingly honest in my art. So that's my constant internal conflict. How do I be my honest, authentic, dark self and share it with the world as I feel compelled to and not hurt people who matter to me? (By people I mean loved ones, not strangers.) So I don't share and I feel unfulfilled. (I have considered a pen name. Anonymity takes all those self conscious feelings away.) I also have my very sexual instinct moments where I am totally shameless and then I feel so ashamed afterwards. The swing between shameless to shameful can be paralyzing.
    I have a bit of that in me, without the Sx shamelessness. I meant "need for approval" in the broadest possible sense - it can be avoiding disapproval, or sometimes needing others to agree that something's OK/appropriate/approved of before proceeding.

    I've read that one before and it's a pretty great description. The part about "emotional truth teller" is very accurate - this is what I feel like I'm good at. I think the worst thing for me is that I don't fit in but I don't feel like I'm misfit-y enough to gain the cool outsider status. I'm stuck trying to play both parts and inevitably do it poorly.

    Anyway I think we're getting off topic here. We should talk about some of the other subtypes too.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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