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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Social fours were overly whiny and weepy. They complained too much without doing anything about it. Sexual fours came in with this competitive attitude of 'Just try to help me, I know you can't.' Most of them had good things to say about self pres fours, actually, that they were articulate and self disciplined so they accomplished a lot in therapy. They liked that they didn't complain which I thought was a little wild- don't therapists want their patients to share their problems?
    This is interesting, because there are times I've considered therapy, but I kind of thought it would be pointless because of the sp & sx reasons. The "I know you couldn't help me" aspect would be an arrogance that I've considered all solutions & angles already & deemed it hopeless (the world & me are just incompatible). I could see myself getting argumentative, as I can be a bit of a know-it-all.

    I've mainly never done it because I've had the idea that the worst thing for me is to be "diagnosed", because what I really need to learn is that there is nothing wrong with me (and therapists don't tend to take that angle, from what I gather).

    I also think I'd either just whine & want to be heard or have a hard time opening up at all because I find such things very humiliating (I used to really fear crying in front of other people). I have a tendency to be like "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine - SIGH!".

    I think therapy only works for someone if they're ready to do work, and the sp 4 is likely to not even do it UNTIL they are ready, whereas sx & so may for the wrong reasons (attention, sympathy...). In other words, I don't think sp 4s are automatically more inclined to self-improvement.... it's just that they're being martyrs in isolation instead of seeking a willing ear in the meantime.
    @Southern Kross - you seem very contained. What has led you to settle on so/sp and not sp/so?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #22
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's so spot on it's ridiculous. While I know my sister is a Sx-first, I've even struggled to work out whether she's a 8 or 1 - and this description even addresses that. Also, "being more of a reformer than a perfectionist" fits so well and explains things too.
    I'd say Lydia Adams (Regina King) on Southland is a 1w2 sx/so.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  3. #23
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Pretty much.

    Social fours were overly whiny and weepy. They complained too much without doing anything about it. Sexual fours came in with this competitive attitude of 'Just try to help me, I know you can't.' Most of them had good things to say about self pres fours, actually, that they were articulate and self disciplined so they accomplished a lot in therapy. They liked that they didn't complain which I thought was a little wild- don't therapists want their patients to share their problems?
    Yeah, that is strange. I've never done therapy but I kinda thought the point was to be a little whiny.

    However, I have believed 4s would be difficult therapy patients. I thought it would be because we are too self-aware and too knowledgeable about our problems (though not necessarily the "Envy" issue), that it would make it almost impossible to give real insight and inspire changes.

    For fives, I don't remember anything instinct specific, but basically it was about how it was impossible to get anything out of them and that they were so frustrating because they refused to take any concrete action to change, they were just so in their heads.
    Sounds about right.

    It was a wild read because it was these uncensored comments of psychotherapists tearing certain 'types' apart and praising others. It was like sneaking into a private meeting, which intrigued me, but it also left a pretty bad taste in my mouth, mainly because it would seem that therapists should be more open-minded and not play favorites and something about them grouping people into types vs considering them as individuals bothered me. It made me think of teachers congregating in a teachers' lounge bitching about certain cliques of students. That said, I liked having the opportunity to read it. It was like being a fly on the wall.
    That was my thoughts too - I'm also a little ambivalent about it.

    I know. I really like them too. I find it interesting because when I first encountered enneagram I thought for sure my husband was a 7 but he's not flaky and changeable like sevens are often portrayed (just extremely enthusiastic and constantly planning his next activity of fun), so I considered 6, 3, 9, 2, but there was always something off about it. Thinking of him as the 'countertype' (I always figured he was a social dom regardless of etype) for seven totally makes sense.
    Don't you love it when that happens?

    I don't get why people wouldn't want to be social first, but there definitely does seem to be a bias against social- I guess it's the prevalence of bad descriptions. I've never equated bonding with sexual though. They are definitely different energies. Sexual is like being possessed by the devil while social strikes me as being gentle and considerate.
    The descriptions are not great for the Social instinct and it has instilled all these prejudices against it. People see the type as rather bland (they're neither intense or tragic) or like a bunch of superficial, cliquey, ass-kissing, social-climbers. You have to contend with that every time you try to persuade someone that they could be one. It's not their fault; they just don't know the full picture.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #24
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is interesting, because there are times I've considered therapy, but I kind of thought it would be pointless because of the sp & sx reasons. The "I know you couldn't help me" aspect would be an arrogance that I've considered all solutions & angles already & deemed it hopeless (the world & me are just incompatible). I could see myself getting argumentative, as I can be a bit of a know-it-all.
    Yeah, I would do a little of that too - in between being "whiny".

    I also think I'd either just whine & want to be heard or have a hard time opening up at all because I find such things very humiliating (I used to really fear crying in front of other people). I have a tendency to be like "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine - SIGH!".
    Yeah. From my perspective, I don't want to open up to someone who isn't going to properly get me and will try to fix me in stupid ways. I also hate crying in front of people - show no weakness!

    Southern Kross - you seem very contained. What has led you to settle on so/sp and not sp/so?
    Yeah, it is a bit hard to see at first - I even went with sp/so in the beginning. The strong Five wing makes it difficult because it gives a decidedly Sp vibe, however, it didn't really gel with other aspects of myself. I read a couple of good descriptions of 4s and the Social instinct which it really seemed to click with me and encapsulate things.

    I think the main thing was that So-first 4s were these conflicted social animals. On one hand they want to be part of things and on the other they're extremely anti-social - that's me to a tee. It's a a bizarre quality: even though I'm an intensely shy and reserved introvert, I have an extroverted streak. It's not something that would be noticeable online, I imagine. IRL I can be quite talkative and friendly in social situations, even while I'm terrified (and/or miserable) inside. This made it difficult at times when doing MBTI questionnaires because it was so contradictory: "yes, I am rather talkative"; "no, I avoid people like the plague". Also I think So 4s can seem open, even though they aren't (which fits with me), whereas Sp 4s are plainly not open.

    On top of that the whole 4 So shame aspect makes sense - I feel embarrassment over my failings keenly. Also the fact that they're social, cultural, political commentators fits with me too. I think it's because we have one foot in the social circle and one foot out; this affords both awareness and the distance from which to make insights and analyse them clearly. It also means I'm never fully here nor there, which is probably confusing for the people around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    I'd say Lydia Adams (Regina King) on Southland is a 1w2 sx/so.
    Unfortunately I haven't seen that show. I'm trying to think of some others...

    Isn't Meryl Streep a 1w2 Sx?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #25
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    When I'm healthier I have a difficult time seeing myself in the Naranjo descriptions. I always have to remember- what am I like when I've lost my shit? And then it becomes pretty stinking obvious that sexual four is where it's at.

    OrangeAppled, I was reading Naranjo's Enneatypes in Psychotherapy at a bookstore last night. An interesting read, for sure. It's essentially the notes from a meeting of psychotherapists discussing how it is working with different enneatypes and their subtypes, including their biases against particular types (wow did a lot of them hate working with fours and fives, maybe that's part of why I've always had such a shitty time with therapists/psychiatrists). Also, all of the therapists of the same subtypes got together and highlighted what they considered to be the core issues of those particular subtypes. You might want to try to get a copy.
    That is really interesting. I can't wait to read this, thanks for posting about it. Therapists have never been much help to me either (if that's what you meant by 'shitty time', lol). It doesn't especially surprise me. I suspect 4 and 5 are averse to that kind of direction, scrutinizing it more than other types (though I'd have guessed this would be problematic for 6 as well).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #26
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    The descriptions are not great for the Social instinct and it has instilled all these prejudices against it. People see the type as rather bland (they're neither intense or tragic) or like a bunch of superficial, cliquey, ass-kissing, social-climbers. You have to contend with that every time you try to persuade someone that they could be one. It's not their fault; they just don't know the full picture.
    i generally think of so types as the pleasers. they like to please other people. they are inclusive in their decision-making processes. with so/sps, i think they accept that all things in life require negotiation and commit to a process of negotiating in their interactions with others. committing to community is the upside of "cliquey," whereas "objectifying" is the downside of sx only desiring and focusing on exactly what it wants and nothing more (just as "aloof" is the downside of sp disengagement and insularity).

    so cliquey, aloof, and objectifying? or community-oriented, earthy, and passionate? it just depends on which direction the arrows are coming from. and it's also part of the family roles we grew into and that exist beyond us too, at least until we grow into the whole of ourselves.

    i used to demonize it, and it's still difficult for me to predict or understand the process so types go through in real-time, but i'm starting to see why it's so important, necessary, and valuable. some better descriptions don't just portray so/sp types as status-driven social climbers. they instead focus on the way that they truly care about competency and contribution to the group (and the values that are used to assess that: fairness, reciprocity, loyalty, consistency, delivering on promises, and integrity). most of the ones i know work really hard! and while they may identify with concrete symbolizations of those underlying values, so do we all. theirs are just generally more organizationally/role driven, rather than sx prizes which are more about being as resource intensive as possible (when not just image-based focuses on total change potential), or sp comforts which are more about creating as much ease and ergonomicness as possible.

  7. #27
    brainheart
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    @OrangeAppled, @Southern Kross @Z Buck McFate

    My issues tend to be that, first of all, I do a ton of introspection and then I research the hell out of anything that interests me so I go in there equipped with all of this information and things I've considered and so when a therapist slowly explains things to me I already know, all I can think about is how pointless it is. Or even worse, when I mention something and they don't know what I'm talking about. So yes, there's an arrogance. (like you say, Southern Kross, fours' self awareness can leave a therapist with little to do at times and hence their frustration, I imagine.)

    Secondly, if I don't feel a connection to someone I just go into withdrawn mode. I had a therapist (who I really didn't like) constantly go on and on about how enigmatic and mysterious I was. Obviously I liked that, so that didn't really help her get more words out of me.

    Then there is the therapist model of constantly telling you how normal your problems are and how there are others who have it far worse, which I guess makes most people feel better? I hear that and I just shut down because obviously this person doesn't have a single clue about me. Hearing I'm 'just like everybody else' makes me want to die.

    (I would like to add, by the way, that I don't go to a therapist. I go to a psychiatrist because I have to in order to get my medication that I'm supposed to take for the rest of my life, so when I say therapist I actually mean psychiatrist. If I didn't have to go to get a refill I wouldn't bother with any of it.)

  8. #28
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i generally think of so types as the pleasers. they like to please other people. they are inclusive in their decision-making processes. with so/sps, i think they accept that all things in life require negotiation and commit to a process of negotiating in their interactions with others. committing to community is the upside of "cliquey," whereas "objectifying" is the downside of sx only desiring and focusing on exactly what it wants and nothing more (just as "aloof" is the downside of sp disengagement and insularity).

    so cliquey, aloof, and objectifying? or community-oriented, earthy, and passionate? it just depends on which direction the arrows are coming from. and it's also part of the family roles we grew into and that exist beyond us too, at least until we grow into the whole of ourselves.
    I would think many unhealthy social types would be better described as antisocial or misanthropic rather than cliquey. Perhaps they perceive others as cliquey or are disgusted by cliques or group people together but I think many unhealthy social doms see themselves as separate from the group, and feel like the group is against them- me vs group/ group vs me. For that reason I think an unhealthy social type could seem rather aloof, especially if they have a four or five element to them.

    This isn't to say that there are plenty of unhealthy social cliquey people, I agree with you on that, just as I agree with you that unhealthy sexual engages in a sort of objectification- "I need this/I need you NOW, I don't care who my desires upset or that you don't want me. My desires MUST be made manifest..."

  9. #29
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    I can absolutely see myself in each of the 4 descriptions, but mostly the sx and sp (very validating because I just finally settled on those instinctual variants). Haha, I can absolutely see why Therapists have a tough time w/ 4, 5 and 6-- I am a bit embarrassed of majority of my therapy experiences in the past (most as a very hurt and unhealthy teenager). I was so defensive and mean, poor Therapists! Oh, well.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    My issues tend to be that, first of all, I do a ton of introspection and then I research the hell out of anything that interests me so I go in there equipped with all of this information and things I've considered and so when a therapist slowly explains things to me I already know, all I can think about is how pointless it is. Or even worse, when I mention something and they don't know what I'm talking about. So yes, there's an arrogance. (like you say, Southern Kross, fours' self awareness can leave a therapist with little to do at times and hence their frustration, I imagine.)
    I can completely relate to that! I have felt that way with Therapists and Neurologists (I'm Narcoleptic). There's nothing I hate more than when they assume I know and have experienced nothing! I have gotten a kick out of curtly bursting that bubble though (oops). -^_^-

    ...Until 5 minutes later when I feel the need to *face palm* for letting my frustration get the best of me. Le sigh.

    Yes to therapy being potentially pointless anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, I would do a little of that too - in between being "whiny".
    I hate to see the whiny thing be exclusively associated with so 4. I've seen sp 4s do whiny too. It may not appear that way outwardly, but it's still there, just indirectly expressed, and when you get close to them you'll see it. Behold, the sp 4: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx7...s#.UR8W-jSPWHc

    Damn, it's not the whole clip, but you can sort of get it here. I knew a sp 4w5 girl back in high school. She reminds me a lot of Grace in terms of her vibe and expression. Indirect expression of frustrations, always alluding to something that went "wrong". Had a stoic presence and a bit fragile, but had a tough/snarky attitude also.

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