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  1. #11
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I see myself in the sp as a child, and certainly as an adult, but sx is much stronger now. I had hateful outbursts as a child, where sx bubbled over, but most of the time I took some pride in being an undemanding, good kid who held it all in. As an adult, the envious anger is a lot less contained, but also less volcanic when it surfaces. I just kind of own the envy now, almost shamelessly, the kind of justified feeling the sx 4 has.
    I see all of the 4 subtypes in myself in certain stages of my life. I was much more so/sp when I was younger, but when I reached my late teens my development and behavior have been more similar to an sx/so, with a drastically decreasing sp. 'Shamelessness' is one way to put it, but I had always attributed it to a greater self-assurance.

    Does this suggest that subtype is more fluid, or has the capacity to change?
    Last edited by SoraMayhem; 02-13-2013 at 02:32 PM. Reason: discussion
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  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    I see all of the 4 subtypes in myself in certain stages of my life. I was much more so/sp when I was younger, but when I reached my late teens my development and behavior have been more similar to an sx/so, with a drastically decreasing sp. 'Shamelessness' is one way to put it, but I had always attributed it to a greater self-assurance.

    Does this suggest that subtype is more fluid, or has the capacity to change?
    I see myself in all of them also, but less so in the SO type, and markedly so in the SX type. I think it can be a matter of getting a better grasp of the instincts & how they play out within a type. I don't think I could've typed myself based on these short descriptions, but they reinforce what I already know.
    @brainheart - I don't know how much of the book you read/remember, but is that the one where Naranjo discusses how your identification with an instinctual subtype(s) can clue you into your core type? Perhaps it was just in a lecture of his though... but I heard/read something somewhere that he says if you cannot identify clearly with one instinctual subtype above others, that there's a good chance it is not your core type. I'm not sure if that addresses your question raine_lynn, but I think there are a lot of reasons a person may not identify clearly with one instinctual subtype of their identified core type that don't indicate a mistyping.
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  3. #13
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ... but I heard/read something somewhere that he says if you cannot identify clearly with one instinctual subtype above others, that there's a good chance it is not your core type.
    ...y'know, now that you say that, I went back to read the other types, and what do you know, 5 SO sounds rather accurate. >>;
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  4. #14
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I see myself in all of them also, but less so in the SO type, and markedly so in the SX type. I think it can be a matter of getting a better grasp of the instincts & how they play out within a type. I don't think I could've typed myself based on these short descriptions, but they reinforce what I already know.
    @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7140" target="_blank">brainheart</a> - I don't know how much of the book you read/remember, but is that the one where Naranjo discusses how your identification with an instinctual subtype(s) can clue you into your core type? Perhaps it was just in a lecture of his though... but I heard/read something somewhere that he says if you cannot identify clearly with one instinctual subtype above others, that there's a good chance it is not your core type. I'm not sure if that addresses your question raine_lynn, but I think there are a lot of reasons a person may not identify clearly with one instinctual subtype of their identified core type that don't indicate a mistyping.
    I didn't read the whole book but I do know I heard what you're speaking of in a lecture. I think it's a little extreme, personally. There are plenty of enneagram theorists who say you have an overall dominant instinct type but the other instincts will come to the surface at other times depending on what's going on in your life. I prefer the idea of what typically triggers neuroticism within you as a way of determining your dominant instinct- and how you react to that trigger. I have a more difficult time with figuring out how to determine stacking. Some say the second is your most stable function, but I'm having difficulty placing that sort of theory within the neuroticism model.

    Also, I have heard that it's important to take into consideration the instincts prevalent in your upbringing. I was raised in a very SO/SP family by two e1 parents so those qualities were drilled into me as being valued, and as an image type I quickly learned I would be ignored or frowned upon the second I got overly emotional, intense and demanding (however I was always internally arrogant. I was loathed by all my classmates and as much as it hurt and as much as I wanted friends I always made myself feel better by thinking about how I was better than them- so there is the shamelessness and competition, I suppose. I was convinced I was a misunderstood genius, ha ha). Sometimes it's difficult to disentangle what comes second or what was the emphasis in your childhood environment, I think.


    However, what I like about Naranjo are the same things I like about Jung. You have to view what he says metaphorically, not literally. (Something which you encounter listening to him more- I prefer listening to him vs reading notes about what he says, for sure.) I like the 'aha'! that comes with his descriptions vs this long list of things to check off, which is NOT how my brain operates. I am an INFP with mega inferior Te.


    Here's the lecture:


  5. #15
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Also, I have heard that it's important to take into consideration the instincts prevalent in your upbringing. I was raised in a very SO/SP family so both of those qualities were drilled into me, and as an image type I quickly learned I would be ignored or frowned upon the second I got overly emotional, intense and demanding (however I was always internally arrogant. I was loathed by all my classmates and as much as it hurt and as much as I wanted friends I always made myself feel better by thinking about how I was better than them- so there is the shamelessness and competition, I suppose. I was convinced I was a misunderstood genius, ha ha). Sometimes it's difficult to disentangle what comes second or what was the emphasis in your childhood environment, I think.
    I think this is a good point. I think too it really ties into how people of the same 'type' can be pretty different from one another, in behaviors, skillsets, level of communication/expression, and so on. Sometimes it can be hard to tease out what was drilled into you vs. what is truly more natural for you, and I think kids learn at a young age what 'needs' to be suppressed for maximum safety or lack of conflict, and what's more safe (and will be accepted) to be shared, etc.

    Anyway, I can relate. My parents are both ISxJ's, one is an so/sp, and the other is a probable sp/so (otherwise an sp/sx, but I'm not sure; can't really tease out what's istj/SJ/tertiary Fi and what's instinctual). The SJ was drilled into me, as was an environment where emotions and 'connections' didn't really happen; an absence of sharing of thoughts and internal selves. Everything was very surface-level and withdrawn/self-sufficient, from my perspective at least, although all of my tangible needs were met and accounted for. [so I'm not complaining, it's just interesting to contrast what the gaps were vs. what was filled; what was filled for me is probably what is lacking in many peoples' experiences, and vice versa]
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  6. #16
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think this is a good point. I think too it really ties into how people of the same 'type' can be pretty different from one another, in behaviors, skillsets, level of communication/expression, and so on. Sometimes it can be hard to tease out what was drilled into you vs. what is truly more natural for you, and I think kids learn at a young age what 'needs' to be suppressed for maximum safety or lack of conflict, and what's more safe (and will be accepted) to be shared, etc.

    Anyway, I can relate. My parents are both ISxJ's, one is an so/sp, and the other is a probable sp/so (otherwise an sp/sx, but I'm not sure; can't really tease out what's istj/SJ/tertiary Fi and what's instinctual). The SJ was drilled into me, as was an environment where emotions and 'connections' didn't really happen; an absence of sharing of thoughts and internal selves. Everything was very surface-level and withdrawn/self-sufficient, from my perspective at least, although all of my tangible needs were met and accounted for. [so I'm not complaining, it's just interesting to contrast what the gaps were vs. what was filled; what was filled for me is probably what is lacking in many peoples' experiences, and vice versa]
    Yes. I think for some reason there is this emphasis in enneagram theory on the initial reaction with parents and how that shapes the type but then it supposedly ends there, as if the remainder of your childhood has no influence. I mean, I very vividly remember being a supremely outwardly emo little kid but around the age of five that really changed and for the most part I became way more withdrawn and cooler in my interactions with others. I only felt like I could be my super dramatic self alone and so I began to prefer spending a lot of time by myself. My whole entire life my parents, whenever I say "I feel" immediately stop me and say, "Say, I think. You don't feel something, you think it." My mom did this to me over Christmas and I am thirty freaking eight years old. Well, I blew up on her and strongly informed her that no, I feel the vast majority of things that I express, so get the hell over it and stop correcting me. Ugh.

  7. #17
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    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/fo...1#.URwNOzSPWHc

    Credit to the OP of that thread for the information. Posting this here because I think there is a lot of misunderstanding between instincts, specifically the sx and so instincts.

    Sexual Instinct
    "Attraction/Repulsion." NOT bonding.

    Manifest in 3 Zones, and distortions:
    1) Edge/Aggression/ Pushing the envelope - Moving towards what draws you energetically, drive towards what is exciting and interesting, element of risk, of overcoming boundaries, destructive. Salmon swimming upstream to [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] and die. Most aggressive version of their type. There's an element of risk and exhaustion. Jealousy and Competition, over-aggression, over-spending energy, can be heartless, this is hunter-prey dynamic. Everything else sidelined. Recklessness.

    2) Broadcasting/Charisma - Display, broadcasting one's energy and reading the energy of others (not attunement - that is social, this is "where's the juice?"), phallic sending out signals of one's "feathers", what one is all about. Trying to intrigue and being intrigued. Peacocking. *this is not being aware of the other, attuned, connected or bonded*. Where the other "is at" is social. Projecting energy, trying to attract, "feelers" out looking for the juice. Trying to draw you in, like energetic "pheromones".

    3) Immersion/Fusion - completely absorbed, immersion, not just in others but in passions. without the heart center it becomes spiraling, self-absorption, tends to mix with narcissistic issues, tries to resolve left over childhood b.s. Male mantis being eaten by females, male spiders being eaten by females. The question is what do I fusing with? You don't fuse with just anything (there's a picky-ness here... hunter waits for prey... finding the right game, the perfect mate, the right spark. It's not connection. There is a specific intelligence to the attraction, see my example below of plagues and arranged marriages), the nature of the attraction-immersion is that there is a specific something that draws attraction and immersion is sought in.

    Once resources are gathered by SP, they want to be used, activated. Doing something with them is social.

    -Russ said about 50 percent of people who think they're sexual aren't, social in most cases, misunderstanding the two instincts, which is not their fault, fault of [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] teachings.

    Being turned on, spending energy, driven to spend energy, not a choice.
    Chemistry and fusion, not intimacy.

    -Attracting and being attracted. Also repelling. Time to hunt, mate and go out - aggression and competition - Display - flowers are an example.

    -In presence, we're drawn to what makes more life and energy, when we're distorted, we move to what gives the ego more energy.

    -To be used up by existence, fused with essence, letting no barriers get in the way. Nothing stops you from union with the beloved.
    Surrender, obliterated by beloved, going all the way.

    -In sex, we can't be intact.

    -Sx is the part of us that doesn't tolerate veils and barriers. The transforming, creative force. competition is the engine of evolution. Breaks things up, shakes things up, sexual is a destabilizing force, but also reconstitution.

    Sexual is the reconstituting of separate elements coming together in new ways - creativity.

    energy that gets us off our ass, fascinated.

    Instinctual wisdom and intelligence - Jess and Russ talked about cultures with arranged marriages, more so and sp than sx, and how that made those cultures more susceptible to being wiped out by plagues. attraction has intelligence.


    -intensity - intense about what? intensity needed because intimacy can't be felt.
    high sx-people have erratic lives

    -social is affection and tenderness. sexual is an energetic synergy. The sexual is not discriminating, because that implies choice, which is social. the sexual has no choice about what it's attracted to, but the instinct has strong attracts and strong repulsions (i'm not saying sexual is interested in everything, more like the opposite - sexual is attracted to very specific elements, but as far as the WHY or the pursuit of that attraction, there is little to no control. Likewise, the sexual instinct has an incredibly hard time engaging with something it's not attracted to.)


    sx-last: postponing the sexual. Not that one doesn't have sx, have passion, have attraction, but it's constantly postponed, corked. passion is kept in a jar. Sx-last person feels unattractive, ashamed, unconscious "I'm boring and lucky to have friends". Sexual can always be talked out of - "I would pursue this, but my work/this person needs me." Seems disruptive or unruly. SX is done self-consciously.

    3 Levels of Development:
    1) Unconscious - seeking peaks states of energy and intensity to point of self-destruction, or neurotic about where the energy fix is coming from, manipulating, forcing, hung-up on how to squeeze most intensity. obsession with object. addiction to object of attraction.
    2) Growing - activated energy for creation and fulfillment, energy that undoes the log-jams.
    3) Illuminated - be on wave of creative life force, energy fully engaged in awakening, sx generated in service of essence, the real juice is awakening. complete transmission. Sacred Prostitute - Jess mentioned Virgina Satir - said she wouldn't work with a client if she couldn't imagine making love to them, otherwise there would not be a complete transmission.

    some examples that were mentioned:

    sx 3 "doing" desirability, becoming something to be the ideal mate. shaping oneself into ideal mate of object of attraction.
    sx 4 hardest time being practical, run by their attraction, "come here, see if you can handle me" hard to handle pride. i'm not willing to be civilized.
    sx 6 anxiety about attractiveness, sx 6 males can seem 8ish, not necessarily counterphobic, leather jackets, motorcycles, bruce springsteen-esque tough guy, but 'feminine' coyishness and being undone in love and romance. SX 6 females, cultivating attractiveness and highly feminine with a toyboyish streak to undermine it, 'protesting' their own strategy - "i hate being pretty" but also wanting to be the prettiest.
    sx 9 - conflict of autonomy and boundaries and fusion. Sloth and fusion. Most aggressive 9, can seem unlike typical 9. Fusing, losing oneself in fusion, "waking up" and reclaiming boundaries. Triangulation is common - "I love two people and can't chose between either" as a way of keeping boundaries while also keeping the blame off themselves for causing this conflict "if i make this choice, i hurt person X, or this choice, person Y. i can't help what i feel."
    The sp and so descriptions are in there too. The whole thread is worth a read imo, especially if you're undecided on instincts.

  8. #18
    brainheart
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  9. #19
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Wow, those descriptions seem fantastic. I won't say perfect, because I'm sure there are flaws, even if I haven't found obvious ones yet. It even clarifies some typings for me. I don't know about everyone else but the first thing I do when I see those lists is test them out on people/characters whose instincts and enneatype I know (or am struggling over). One of the comparisons I made was my sister and then I read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    1-1 Ones: In contrast to the SP One, who is a perfectionist, and the SO One, who is perfect, the 1-1 One perfects others, being more of a reformer than a perfectionist. 1-1 Ones can seem like Eights in that they can be zealous and driven to make the changes they feel strongly about. In this character, anger potentiates desire, and there is an intensity of desire both to get what one wants and to change other people and society to fit one’s ideals. (This is the countertype.)
    That's so spot on it's ridiculous. While I know my sister is a Sx-first, I've even struggled to work out whether she's a 8 or 1 - and this description even addresses that. Also, "being more of a reformer than a perfectionist" fits so well and explains things too.

    I did find my subtype description to be rather bland in general, though:

    The SO Four is emotionally sensitive and feels things deeply. They lament frequently and tend to take on the victim role. In contrast to the 1-1 Four, the SO Four is not competitive, though they often compare themselves to others and find themselves lacking. For the SO Four, there is a need for self-abasement and self-recrimination. It’s as if you want to ask them, “What’s wrong with you that you think there’s something wrong with you?”
    However, I do like that it says I feel things deeply - at least that humanises me a bit.


    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    OrangeAppled, I was reading Naranjo's Enneatypes in Psychotherapy at a bookstore last night. An interesting read, for sure. It's essentially the notes from a meeting of psychotherapists discussing how it is working with different enneatypes and their subtypes, including their biases against particular types (wow did a lot of them hate working with fours and fives, maybe that's part of why I've always had such a shitty time with therapists/psychiatrists). Also, all of the therapists of the same subtypes got together and highlighted what they considered to be the core issues of those particular subtypes. You might want to try to get a copy.
    That's interesting. Did they say why? Are we just too stubborn and in our own heads for therapy to work effectively?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/fo...1#.URwNOzSPWHc

    Credit to the OP of that thread for the information. Posting this here because I think there is a lot of misunderstanding between instincts, specifically the sx and so instincts.
    I agree that too many people claim to be Sx-firsts. People don't want to be So-first, and may choose to see their sense of connection with people as being Sx related. If they took a second look they might find they fit the social instinct better and they will actually get more meaningful answers out of it - I certainly did (although I thought I was Sp-first, instead).
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  10. #20
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's interesting. Did they say why? Are we just too stubborn and in our own heads for therapy to work effectively?
    Pretty much.

    Social fours were overly whiny and weepy. They complained too much without doing anything about it. Sexual fours came in with this competitive attitude of 'Just try to help me, I know you can't.' Most of them had good things to say about self pres fours, actually, that they were articulate and self disciplined so they accomplished a lot in therapy. They liked that they didn't complain which I thought was a little wild- don't therapists want their patients to share their problems?

    For fives, I don't remember anything instinct specific, but basically it was about how it was impossible to get anything out of them and that they were so frustrating because they refused to take any concrete action to change, they were just so in their heads.

    It was a wild read because it was these uncensored comments of psychotherapists tearing certain 'types' apart and praising others. It was like sneaking into a private meeting, which intrigued me, but it also left a pretty bad taste in my mouth, mainly because it would seem that therapists should be more open-minded and not play favorites and something about them grouping people into types vs considering them as individuals bothered me. It made me think of teachers congregating in a teachers' lounge bitching about certain cliques of students. That said, I liked having the opportunity to read it. It was like being a fly on the wall.

    Wow, those descriptions seem fantastic. I won't say perfect, because I'm sure there are flaws, even if I haven't found obvious ones yet. It even clarifies some typings for me. I don't know about everyone else but the first thing I do when I see those lists is test them out on people/characters whose instincts and enneatype I know (or am struggling over).
    I know. I really like them too. I find it interesting because when I first encountered enneagram I thought for sure my husband was a 7 but he's not flaky and changeable like sevens are often portrayed (just extremely enthusiastic and constantly planning his next activity of fun), so I considered 6, 3, 9, 2, but there was always something off about it. Thinking of him as the 'countertype' (I always figured he was a social dom regardless of etype) for seven totally makes sense.

    I agree that too many people claim to be Sx-firsts. People don't want to be So-first, and may choose to see their sense of connection with people as being Sx related. If they took a second look they might find they fit the social instinct better and they will actually get more meaningful answers out of it - I certainly did (although I thought I was Sp-first, instead).
    I don't get why people wouldn't want to be social first, but there definitely does seem to be a bias against social- I guess it's the prevalence of bad descriptions. I've never equated bonding with sexual though. They are definitely different energies. Sexual is like being possessed by the devil while social strikes me as being gentle and considerate.

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