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Thread: So-last SJs

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    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Default So-last SJs

    How does THAT work?

    Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

    Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well.
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    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    How does THAT work?
    Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?
    Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well.
    - Kenny G: ISTJ 3w2 Sp/Sx
    - Christian Bale: ESTJ 3w4 or 8w7 Sp/Sx
    - Robert De Niro: ISTJ 8w9 Sp/Sx
    - Russel Crowe: ISTJ 8w9 Sx/Sp
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    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @EJCC
    you mentioned Dexter Morgan in another thread. he's another good example of an So last SJ. I'd say ISTJ 6w5 Sp/Sx
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    EJCC
    you mentioned Dexter Morgan in another thread. he's another good example of an So last SJ. I'd say ISTJ 6w5 Sp/Sx
    I'm never sure if he's ISTJ or INTJ. In early seasons, I would have said that he was very ISTJ, but for the past three seasons -- since the Big Twist at the end of the season with Trinity (was that season 4?) -- he's been so impulsive and reliant on gut instincts, in a way that seems contrary to Si. But yes, back when his entire being was devoted to the Code, and when he came unhinged whenever the Code was questioned (e.g. the scenes with Doakes in Season 2)... totally ISTJ.

    I read an interview with Christian Bale, after you posted that, and I could see ESTJ for him. Maybe ENTJ, but for sure ExTx 8. Considering him and Dexter, then, would you say that SJ so-last would mean more of a narrow focus, in their internal standards? Taking their sense of right and wrong and laser-focusing it either on themselves, or one thing, as opposed to, say, generalizing it to apply to a group/society/the world? In other words... a less community-oriented, but equally just and loyal, SJ?

    p.s. Why are you awake?? Aren't you in my time zone? (I've got a paper due. What's your excuse? )
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #5
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    How does THAT work?

    Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

    Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well.
    Good question EJCC.

    Before I get into how I feel it affects the implementation of my own life, let's review some descriptive info from the Interwebz:

    FROM: http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/

    Instinctual Variants
    "The theory of "instincts" states that each person, no matter what type they are, has a mix of the three psychological instincts: Sexual, Social, and Self Preservation. This is one of the reasons why two people can be the same type, but very different. The Sexual Instinct, often referred to as SX, causes you to seek out intense connections in one-on-one relationships. The Social Instinct, often referred to as SO, causes you to seek out warm, open, personal connections with many different people...

    The passage at the end claims that:

    "On a side note, your variant stackings may change when you are in different situations or different levels of health."

    I have never heard the above, but it is an interesting concept - considering that if true, it would describe why someone who is typed "sx/so" (such as myself) might not act that way 100% of the time depending on what they have going on in their lives.

    One more quote from the WWW before I offer my own interpretation of this phenomena:

    FROM: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp#instincts


    The Three Instincts

    "The three Instincts (often erroneously called "the subtypes") are a third set of distinctions that are extremely important for understanding personality. A major aspect of human nature lies in our instinctual "hard wiring" as biological beings. We each are endowed with specific instinctual intelligences that are necessary for our survival as individuals and as a species. We each have a self-preservation instinct (for preserving the body and its life and functioning), a sexual instinct (for extending ourselves in the environment and through the generations), and a social instinct (for getting along with others and forming secure social bonds).

    While we have all three Instincts in us, one of them is the dominant focus of our attention and behavior—the set of attitudes and values that we are most attracted to and comfortable with. We each also have a second Instinct that is used to support the dominant Instinct, as well as a third Instinct that is the least developed—a real blind spot in our personality and our values. Which Instinct is in each of these three places—most, middle, and least developed—produces what we call our "Instinctual Stack" (like a three-layer cake) with your dominant Instinct on top, the next most developed Instinct in the middle, and the least developed on the bottom).

    These instinctual drives profoundly influence our personalities, and at the same time, our personalities largely determine how each person prioritizes these instinctual needs. Thus, while every human being has all three of these instincts operating in him or her, our personality causes us to be more concerned with one of these instincts than the other two. We call this instinct our dominant instinct. This tends to be our first priority—the area of life we attend to first. But when we are more caught up in the defenses of our personality—further down the Levels of Development— our personality most interferes with our dominant instinct.

    Further, our Enneagram type flavors the way in which we approach our dominant instinctual need. Combining our Enneagram type with our dominant instinct yields a much more specific portrait of the workings of our personality. When we apply the distinctions of these three instincts to the nine Enneagram types they create 27 unique combinations of type and dominant instinct that account for differences and variability within the types. We call these combinations the Instinctual Variants.[/i]"

    The Enneagram Institute offers an online test, the Instinctual Variants Questionnaire (IVQ) < found at: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ivq.asp >, for helping people determine not only their dominant instinct, but also their Instinctual Stack. The IVQ also provides a detailed personality profile derived from the combination of the test taker's Enneagram type, wing, and Instinctual Stack.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Now for my experience as an ESTP who is answering this thread as a n honorary ESTJ, considering my P/J score is 51%/49%, and I was raised by my Dad, the most hardcore ESTJ who has ever lived.

    The following two snippets are from the first reference I cited:

    The Sexual Instinct, often referred to as SX, causes you to seek out intense connections in one-on-one relationships. = Hell yes it does. I prefer my relations with people to be DIRECT. I don't like relationships where alot of protocol, formality, and other forms of t necessarily harmful, or "bad" - just not my preference).

    I have very good people skills. I can "size people up" VERY quickly with regard to how much I feel I have in common with them, and how interesting they are to me on a personal level.

    A few weeks ago a new contractor (Paul) joined a project I am working on. For the first week or so I didn't get a chance to talk with him much, but I got a chance to listen to him talk to others, and got to observe his social interaction style.

    Immediately obvious to me were that: (a) this guy is without a doubt a genius, as in IQ 160 or above - he knows a damn awful lot about everything, and (b) he is completely unpretentious (a trait I too possess, and that I value highly in others), and finally (c) his sense of humor was totally warped - another fave of mine.

    Last week the project went nuts as we met with a vendor who is doing part of the work, and so me and the contractor, and another employee of my company (Roger, another really cool, smart dude) wound up debriefing after these vendor meetings for several hours to get a jump on things.

    We solved in hours what would have taken alot of people two weeks or more.

    Paul and I went to lunch a few times, and learned a ton from each other, and laughed our asses off in the process. I asked him about his MBTI type = He's an ANTP (Ambivert-NTP)

    I have no idea what his Enneagram stackins are, but now you know how mine work....

    The Social Instinct, often referred to as SO, causes you to seek out warm, open, personal connections with many different people... = YES, I do this and it is of great benefit to my work. On large complicated projects that necessitate having direct and sincere communications with a multitude of people from different departments of an organization this is a great gift.

    FINAL NOTE: I know I have the "sp" instinctual variant as well, but I think I use it very little directly, as I am always one not to put myself in stupid/dangerous situations, and also - in all honesty, I am not a creature who is afraid of a whole lot. I'm basically not afraid of anything. I learned to be that way from my Dad, and learned why I am at peace with such thinking from him, and throughout my own life experience. When you're 6 feet tall and 250 pounds of muscle, not too many things mess with you. But, even so, mentally, I am at peace with the world around me, and with my ultimate fate, and thus am not limited by apprehension as I try to make the most of my life each day.



    P.S. A final excerpt from the first page I quoted:

    FROM:

    "The following are brief descriptions of the three instincts:


    Self Preservation Instinct

    People who have this as their dominant instinct are preoccupied with the safety, comfort, health, energy, and well-being of the physical body. In a word, they are concerned with having enough resources to meet life's demands. Identification with the body is a fundamental focus for all humans, and we need our body to function well in order to be alive and active in the world. Most people in contemporary cultures are not faced life or death "survival" in the strictest sense; thus, Self-Preservation types tend to be concerned with food, money, housing, medical matters, and physical comfort. Moreover, those primarily focused on self-preservation, by extension, are usually interested in maintaining these resources for others as well. Their focus of attention naturally goes towards things related to these areas such as clothes, temperature, shopping, decorating, and the like, particularly if they are not satisfied in these areas or have a feeling of deficiency due to their childhoods. Self-Pres types tend to be more grounded, practical, serious, and introverted than the other two instinctual types. They might have active social lives and a satisfying intimate relationship, but if they feel that their self-preservation needs are not being met, still tend not to be happy or at ease. In their primary relationships, these people are "nesters"—they seek domestic tranquility and security with a stable, reliable partner.

    Sexual (aka "Attraction") Instinct

    Many people originally identify themselves as this type because they have learned that the Sexual types are interested in "one-on-one relationships." But all three instinctual types are interested in one-on-one relationships for different reasons, so this does not distinguish them. The key element in Sexual types is an intense drive for stimulation and a constant awareness of the "chemistry" between themselves and others. Sexual types are immediately aware of the attraction, or lack thereof, between themselves and other people. Further, while the basis of this instinct is related to sexuality, it is not necessarily about people engaging in the sexual act. There are many people that we are excited to be around for reasons of personal chemistry that we have no intention of "getting involved with." Nonetheless, we might be aware that we feel stimulated in certain people's company and less so in others. The sexual type is constantly moving toward that sense of intense stimulation and juicy energy in their relationships and in their activities. They are the most "energized" of the three instinctual types, and tend to be more aggressive, competitive, charged, and emotionally intense than the Self-Pres or Social types. Sexual types need to have intense energetic charge in their primary relationships or else they remain unsatisfied. They enjoy being intensely involved—even merged—with others, and can become disenchanted with partners who are unable to meet their need for intense energetic union. Losing yourself in a "fusion" of being is the ideal here, and Sexual types are always looking for this state with others and with stimulating objects in their world.

    Social (aka "Adaptive") Instinct

    Just as many people tend to misidentify themselves as Sexual types because they want one-on-one relationships, many people fail to recognize themselves as Social types because they get the (false) idea that this means always being involved in groups, meetings, and parties. If Self-Preservation types are interested in adjusting the environment to make themselves more secure and comfortable, Social types adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types. In their primary relationships, they seek partners with whom they can share social activities, wanting their intimates to get involved in projects and events with them. Paradoxically, they actually tend to avoid long periods of exclusive intimacy and quiet solitude, seeing both as potentially limiting. Social types lose their sense of identity and meaning when they are not involved with others in activities that transcend their individual interests.

    Typing Yourself and Others

    Once you have taken the Riso-Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator to discover your dominant type, and perhaps also the Instinctual Variants Questionnaire to further refine your understanding of the Enneagram types, you may be curious about the personality types of others. Since you will usually not be able to administer the RHETI or IVQ to business associates or to strangers, you might wonder how you can become more skilled at discovering which type someone else is. By studying the descriptions in Personality Types, Understanding the Enneagram, and The Wisdom of the Enneagram, you will, in time, become more adept at typing people. As you do so, however, you might keep several points in mind.

    You may be able to figure out the types of a few close friends rather quickly, or you may find it difficult to categorize people and not know where to begin. Either state is normal. It is not always apparent which type someone is, and it takes time and study to sharpen your skills. Remember that you are like a beginning medical student who is learning to diagnose a wide variety of conditions, some healthy and some unhealthy. It takes practice to learn to identify the various "symptoms" of each type and to see larger "syndromes."

    Despite the subtleties and complexities involved, there is really no secret about typing people. You must learn which traits go with each type and observe how people manifest those traits. This is a subtle undertaking because there are many subtypes and quirks to each personality type. Different types can sometimes seem similar, particularly if their motivations are not taken into account. This is why it is not sufficient to focus on a single trait in isolation and make a diagnosis based on it alone. It is necessary to see each type as a whole— its overall style, approach to life, and especially its underlying motivations—before you can determine someone's type reliably. Many elements must come together before you can be sure that you have typed someone accurately.

    Moreover, when we diagnose others, we are always on thinner ice than when we use the Enneagram to deepen our own self-knowledge. It is, of course, more appropriate to apply this material to ourselves than to type others while we avoid looking at our own lives. Nevertheless, it is unrealistic to think that anything as interesting (or as insightful) as the Enneagram will not be used for better understanding others. In fact, we categorize people all the time. No one approaches others without some sort of mental categories. We automatically perceive people either as male or female, black or white, attractive or unattractive, good or bad, friend or enemy, and so forth. It is not only honest to be aware of this, it is useful to have more accurate and appropriate categories for everyone, including ourselves.

    Although the Enneagram is probably the most open-ended and dynamic of typologies, this does not imply that the Enneagram can say all there is to say about human beings. Individuals are understandable only up to a certain point beyond which they remain mysterious and unpredictable. Thus, while there can be no simple explanations for persons, it is still possible to say something true about them. In the last analysis, the Enneagram helps us to do that—and only that. The Enneagram is useful because it indicates with startling clarity certain constellations of meaning about something that is essentially beyond definition: the mystery that we are.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

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    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm never sure if he's ISTJ or INTJ. In early seasons, I would have said that he was very ISTJ, but for the past three seasons -- since the Big Twist at the end of the season with Trinity (was that season 4?) -- he's been so impulsive and reliant on gut instincts, in a way that seems contrary to Si. But yes, back when his entire being was devoted to the Code, and when he came unhinged whenever the Code was questioned (e.g. the scenes with Doakes in Season 2)... totally ISTJ.
    I read an interview with Christian Bale, after you posted that, and I could see ESTJ for him. Maybe ENTJ, but for sure ExTx 8. Considering him and Dexter, then, would you say that SJ so-last would mean more of a narrow focus, in their internal standards? Taking their sense of right and wrong and laser-focusing it either on themselves, or one thing, as opposed to, say, generalizing it to apply to a group/society/the world? In other words... a less community-oriented, but equally just and loyal, SJ?
    p.s. Why are you awake?? Aren't you in my time zone? (I've got a paper due. What's your excuse? )
    working on my final speech for Public Speaking. I'm done now though, got 3 hours of sleep
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  7. #7
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm never sure if he's ISTJ or INTJ. In early seasons, I would have said that he was very ISTJ, but for the past three seasons -- since the Big Twist at the end of the season with Trinity (was that season 4?) -- he's been so impulsive and reliant on gut instincts, in a way that seems contrary to Si. But yes, back when his entire being was devoted to the Code, and when he came unhinged whenever the Code was questioned (e.g. the scenes with Doakes in Season 2)... totally ISTJ.
    Hmm. I've always thought that Dexter was IP rather than IJ. Primarily because his code was one that was externally imposed and (unevenly) engrained into him by his actual STJ father. While Dexter has a rigid, outward adherence to logic it is in direct opposition to his internal dialogue which is always pretty strikingly Fi. The idea that Dex is not STJ is further emphasized by the fact that all long-term/global thinking he does is projected into Ghost Harry, an externalization of Te which seems to indicate that it's an inferior function.

    I know I'm going against the grain here, but I'm gonna say that Dexter is ISFP, trying to appear ISTJ, and ends up looking ISTP.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Cloud of Thunder's Avatar
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    Mother Theresa is the ULTIMATE ISFJ. She's also 2w1 Sp/Sx.

    Regarding Dexter Morgan, I think he's an ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx.

  9. #9
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Dexter is totally an INTJ
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud of Thunder View Post
    Mother Theresa is the ULTIMATE ISFJ. She's also 2w1 Sp/Sx.
    nooo, So/Sx or So/Sp

    Regarding Dexter Morgan, I think he's an ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx.
    only seen clips of the show, but 3w4 Sp/Sx makes sense (though I see him as some sort of Fi/Te user)
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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