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Thread: So-last SJs

  1. #21
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I'm starting to wonder if I'm an Sx/Sp rather than Sx/So....I don't find myself nearly as concerned with social groups as all the So descriptions seem to imply
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  2. #22
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    How does THAT work?

    Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

    Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well.
    I'm not entirely understanding what you're asking about. I'm an sp/sx ISTJ. I'd say in regard to status/hierarchies... If it's something obvious like a job/position (manager, professor, police officer) - something with a tangible level of authority over me, I'm quite respectful of their authority. If it's something less obvious... Like just hierarchies within a social group... I tend to be oblivious to it. I just don't pick up on those nuances.
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  3. #23
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if I'm an Sx/Sp rather than Sx/So....I don't find myself nearly as concerned with social groups as all the So descriptions seem to imply
    I could see that. Sx/So is a yang type (more forward, expansive and overt) whereas Sx/Sp is a yin type (more subtle, coy and would rather let chemistry just happen). you seem more the latter
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  4. #24
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I could see that. Sx/So is a yang type (more forward, expansive and overt) whereas Sx/Sp is a yin type (more subtle, coy and would rather let chemistry just happen). you seem more the latter
    Hmm. Interesting thought.

    here's the thing: I'm more interested in connecting with individuals than I am groups. Once I find an individual I connect with, I latch on them and hope they latch on to me. When they back off, I feel this sudden gulf and emptiness and it can be really hard to deal with sometimes...

    Also, when I'm in groups, I join said groups for the individuals involved...not the groups themselves. If I can't connect to any of the individuals, my interest in the group withers and dies.
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  5. #25
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Hmm. Interesting thought.
    here's the thing: I'm more interested in connecting with individuals than I am groups. Once I find an individual I connect with, I latch on them and hope they latch on to me. When they back off, I feel this sudden gulf and emptiness and it can be really hard to deal with sometimes...
    Also, when I'm in groups, I join said groups for the individuals involved...not the groups themselves. If I can't connect to any of the individuals, my interest in the group withers and dies.
    sound Sx/Sp to me
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  6. #26
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I see what you mean, and I've considered it. He's certainly got aspects of both wings. He really has a lot of 1 traits, though, being rather superego-driven and a little bit high-strung in certain ways. Compared to the description, he does actively avoid conflict, and bemoans it when he feels like it could have been avoidable. I don't see much of "dominating others" in him - he seems to seek independence/autonomy much more strongly than any sort of control. He's very hard on himself, though he seeks comfort. Rarely has he dropped a subject because of seeming pointlessness - he's only ever dropped a conversation with me when I've turned hostile. He will minimize conflict, though. He enjoys the outdoors but prefers it to be somewhat relaxed/controlled. I've never seen him take frustration out physically - he seems to shut down more than getting wound up. He keeps it inside.
    I still think it's possible he's a 9w8, going on what you say here. He sounds more and more like my Dad. My Dad has no interest in dominance or control over others either (and loves his independence) and he also shuts down when it comes to conflict. Honestly, the last time I can remember him losing his temper was 2002. I don't even think I've seen him take frustration physically either - so I'm a bit iffy on that part of the description. He does tend to drop pointless subjects, but then maybe this is a instinctual variants difference between him and your boyfriend.

    Anyway, I don't mean to push the issue. Clearly you know your boyfriend better.

    My ISTP little brother is a clear 9w8 and I see him so clearly in that description, while my boyfriend tends to be more controlled, more in his head, more imaginative, less action-oriented, having more of a need to be "good"/upright, more of a need to actively improve himself, more of need to use his knowledge to impact others. Overall, he seems more w1 to me.[/qu He has the comfort-seeking of the 9 but often seems to be in his head and trying to adjust things to be more comfortable - he even presents that in his physical body.
    Yeah, this sounds it could be 1 wing.

    How much of this is SJ versus SP, how much is wing versus wing, how much is instinct variant, how much is simple individual human variation? That's what I'm having such a hard time clarifying. Everything seems relative.
    Well it's difficult when things overlap or counteract certain traits. I'm a INFP and a 4w5, both of which have very Sp qualities to them, and mostly test as a Sp because of this - but it doesn't really fit me. I think a lot of the descriptions and tests out there on the Enneagram in no way match the quality and consistency of the MBTI ones. But then perhaps the Enneagram is just that much more elusive than MBTI...
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  7. #27
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.
    oh wow, I totally relate to your anecdote re. your mom/sister being more likely to speak their mind; I'm rather like that. I think my sp/so intp brother, sp/so father, and so/sp ex find me more spastic/dramatic/intense/opinionated as a result; typically they are amused, however. Which I'm not sure how I feel about.

    This typically only comes into play with those I am close to, though. If I were with a group of friends or acquaintances, I'd keep a lot of that in check, depending. But this is probably where Fe comes into play. I agree with you re. the crossover between Fe and so.
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  8. #28
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Fe and So seem similar and I think perhaps can heighten SJ stereotypes for the XSFJs, which can confuse the issue. My mum's a Sp/Sx ISFJ and I have Fe-using Dad (he's a ISTP) who's So/Sp - so the differences are more apparent to me. In addition to this my ESTJ sister is Sx/Sp and I'm a So/Sp, and our behaviours tend to divide along these lines (ie. My Dad and Me vs. My sister and Mum). My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also I hope I didn't give you the impression the So-users are polite and So-lasts are not. Politeness is not related to it. Although, So-users might be polite for different reasons than So-lasts, and may have different definitions of what politeness constitutes.
    Yes, I really relate to this as well. I wouldn’t say I don’t give a toss about disturbing the peace, but I’m far more concerned with ‘the peace’ of the smaller group- if even just a single person I’m with- and it just doesn’t even register to me (well, within reason) to consider the people at the surrounding tables or waitstaff or whatnot. Learning about instinct variant has actually helped me understand how keeping the peace with the bigger group could be a priority, and helped me empathize with it. On the flipside of the above example- it would feel like my mom was concerned with what the waitstaff or surrounding tables thought but didn’t give a toss about how anything affected me (or my sister or dad). I’ve noticed this difference with some friends through the years as well.
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  9. #29
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    oh wow, I totally relate to your anecdote re. your mom/sister being more likely to speak their mind; I'm rather like that. I think my sp/so intp brother, sp/so father, and so/sp ex find me more spastic/dramatic/intense/opinionated as a result; typically they are amused, however. Which I'm not sure how I feel about.

    This typically only comes into play with those I am close to, though. If I were with a group of friends or acquaintances, I'd keep a lot of that in check, depending. But this is probably where Fe comes into play. I agree with you re. the crossover between Fe and so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yes, I really relate to this as well. I wouldn’t say I don’t give a toss about disturbing the peace, but I’m far more concerned with ‘the peace’ of the smaller group- if even just a single person I’m with- and it just doesn’t even register to me (well, within reason) to consider the people at the surrounding tables or waitstaff or whatnot. Learning about instinct variant has actually helped me understand how keeping the peace with the bigger group could be a priority, and helped me empathize with it. On the flipside of the above example- it would feel like my mom was concerned with what the waitstaff or surrounding tables thought but didn’t give a toss about how anything affected me (or my sister or dad). I’ve noticed this difference with some friends through the years as well.
    Yes I do imagine that must be how it feels to be on the receiving end of the "shushing". I can see how it seems disrespectful and dismissive. My family gets into arguments over this and I hear similar objections. It's just that, from the So-first perspective it can seem like a lot of unnecessary (and maybe even self-indulgent) grandstanding about your opinion/feelings/rights- of course, I know this isn't the intention but it's how it comes across.

    I would also say, cascadeco, that I know what you mean about being laughed at for your intensity. My sister is a ESTJ sx/sp, which is basically a double dose of intensity. She's got a bit of short fuse on top of this, which was even shorter when she was a child, and this was the source of much derision by peers and outer family. It also doesn't help that being cool, calm and laid back is a cultural expectation in my country - and anything less than that draws a lot of ridicule and/or judgemental stares. My sister would get all intense about something and people would just stop listening to what she had to say and start teasing her. It always upset me because you could see how frustrated and insulted she felt. I usually tried to defend her, to smooth things over or to step in before tensions escalated, in order to spare her the worst of it. She's gotten better at channelling it but it still happens occasionally.

    Discussing all this makes me think that perhaps so-last SJs must be more likely to be rebellious or at least more inclined to challenge the status quo in some way. When I think about it, a lot of the SJs I know that are/have been the sort to rebel and test the boundaries of authority. My ISFJ sp/sx mum certainly wasn't a rebel - she was the quiet, good girl. However she certainly will challenge people if they make sexist/racist comments or argue something else she is equally against. And she can get pretty riled up and once she gets the bit between her teeth, she won't let it go.




    BTW some questions for you both: what is it like being a Fe user and So-last? Do you have a clear sense in your mind of where the division between them lies - what the differences are?
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  10. #30
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I'm not entirely understanding what you're asking about. I'm an sp/sx ISTJ. I'd say in regard to status/hierarchies... If it's something obvious like a job/position (manager, professor, police officer) - something with a tangible level of authority over me, I'm quite respectful of their authority. If it's something less obvious... Like just hierarchies within a social group... I tend to be oblivious to it. I just don't pick up on those nuances.
    I'm a lot like this, although I'm not an SJ, but I think I'm SJ-like in a lot of ways. (Of course I also seem to be 6w5 )

    One of the reasons I'm pretty sure I'm so-last is because I find a lot of social hierarchy stuff not just easily discountable, but ridiculous and kind of contemptible. Anything like office politics, or mutual acquaintances staring bug-eyed at me and saying "omg you don't know so-and-so? He's like the coolest guy around and goes to the hottest parties" just makes me want to laugh in people's faces. Or tell them to grow up and get out of junior high school.

    Not that I think being so-first or second means that you have to be "junior high school" in that way. But I think if I were so-first or even second, I would have more of an understanding of why this social/hierarchical stuff exists or plays a role. I do have great respect for authority, though (unless people abuse it, in which case I have great disrespect.)
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