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Thread: So-last SJs

  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    How does THAT work?

    Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

    Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well.
    I don't know that I would say SJs are focussed on hierarchies - it's not a word I necessarily associate with them. I think SJs are interested in order; either maintaining it or challenging/disrupting it. This is different because it's more generally about how things fit together, rather than creating a sense of comparison and opposition. Hierarchy can come into all this, but I don't think it's always the central issue. But then you may disagree.

    Remember also there's more to the social instinct than hierarchy and status. It's more of an awareness of social elements and interaction; what is demanded of yourself and others in the social realm; how one person is similar and different to others etc.

    Fe and So seem similar and I think perhaps can heighten SJ stereotypes for the XSFJs, which can confuse the issue. My mum's a Sp/Sx ISFJ and I have Fe-using Dad (he's a ISTP) who's So/Sp - so the differences are more apparent to me. In addition to this my ESTJ sister is Sx/Sp and I'm a So/Sp, and our behaviours tend to divide along these lines (ie. My Dad and Me vs. My sister and Mum). My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Cloud of Thunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Dexter is totally an INTJ
    I don't think so. He exercises Se very readily when he's on the hunt for victims/killers. Plus I think he uses Fe when he has to interact with others.

  3. #13
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud of Thunder View Post
    I don't think so. He exercises Se very readily when he's on the hunt for victims/killers. Plus I think he uses Fe when he has to interact with others.
    He's completely I/N/T/J. I don't see how he can be anything else, no matter what functions he uses at certain times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Hmm. I've always thought that Dexter was IP rather than IJ. Primarily because his code was one that was externally imposed and (unevenly) engrained into him by his actual STJ father. While Dexter has a rigid, outward adherence to logic it is in direct opposition to his internal dialogue which is always pretty strikingly Fi. The idea that Dex is not STJ is further emphasized by the fact that all long-term/global thinking he does is projected into Ghost Harry, an externalization of Te which seems to indicate that it's an inferior function.

    I know I'm going against the grain here, but I'm gonna say that Dexter is ISFP, trying to appear ISTJ, and ends up looking ISTP.
    I concur that Dexter is ISFP with a projected ISTJ survival mode he incorporated due to his foster father. "Dark passenger"?! A constant quest for self-discovery... It's all so ridiculously Fi. Initially I thought he was INTJ with a "learned" ISTJ mode (with maybe a combo of having a photographic memory), now I think ISFP fits far better and sort of accounts for his INTJness at times.

    I think it's easy to see a sociopath and think "must be a T!" which assumes that emotion = F and nonemotion = T which would be incorrect.

  5. #15
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud of Thunder View Post
    Regarding Dexter Morgan, I think he's an ISTP 3w4 Sp/Sx.
    I'd go with 5w4, actually. Dexter worries about his image as a matter of necessity, not as one of fixation. His whole character revolves him, his needs, and manipulating his enviornment to ensure that his needs are met.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I'd go with 5w4, actually. Dexter worries about his image as a matter of necessity, not as one of fixation. His whole character revolves him, his needs, and manipulating his enviornment to ensure that his needs are met.
    /concur

    He is knowledge first, identity second, image nowhere.

  7. #17
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't know that I would say SJs are focussed on hierarchies - it's not a word I necessarily associate with them. I think SJs are interested in order; either maintaining it or challenging/disrupting it. This is different because it's more generally about how things fit together, rather than creating a sense of comparison and opposition. Hierarchy can come into all this, but I don't think it's always the central issue. But then you may disagree.
    Remember also there's more to the social instinct than hierarchy and status. It's more of an awareness of social elements and interaction; what is demanded of yourself and others in the social realm; how one person is similar and different to others etc.
    Fe and So seem similar and I think perhaps can heighten SJ stereotypes for the XSFJs, which can confuse the issue. My mum's a Sp/Sx ISFJ and I have Fe-using Dad (he's a ISTP) who's So/Sp - so the differences are more apparent to me. In addition to this my ESTJ sister is Sx/Sp and I'm a So/Sp, and our behaviours tend to divide along these lines (ie. My Dad and Me vs. My sister and Mum). My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.
    ^well said. the social instinct is generally very poorly understood, and I agree that there is more overlap with Fe and Social Instinct than Si and Social Instinct
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  8. #18
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I harbor a suspicion that my boyfriend may be sp/sx and not sp/so like we both originally thought. We are both very certain he's an SJ, and he has confirmed 9w1 sp-dom as well.

    We both initially identified sp/so on these grounds: He is very politically and organizationally aware. He almost always knows the names of groups and their function, and he listens to public radio almost every morning to stay abreast of political issues. He is very interested in government functioning and structure, from military strategy to royal ranks. He affiliates himself with the public institution where he works and with the university where he studies (but rarely if ever did with a previous workplace he disliked). He has even once or twice networked one friend in business with another.

    However, the below is what is getting to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    I think SJs are interested in order; either maintaining it or challenging/disrupting it. This is different because it's more generally about how things fit together, rather than creating a sense of comparison and opposition. [...] Remember also there's more to the social instinct than hierarchy and status. It's more of an awareness of social elements and interaction; what is demanded of yourself and others in the social realm; how one person is similar and different to others etc.
    While he is an easygoing and optimistic 9w1, he is also rather quick to draw a solid and curt boundary between himself and another person. He will freely insult someone who has been rude to him, provided he is not at work. He was strictly raised with proper etiquette and behavior, so he still retains much of that, but he also doesn't seem to change very much from hiking a mountain to eating at a fancy restaurant. He does not seem particularly concerned with image and very much dislikes pretense. He enjoys going to the country club, but seems to most appreciate the amenities and comfort - the pool, the food, his friends, the atmosphere, the happy memories. He likes being well-respected and stable but he doesn't seem to be interested in active social positioning, so to speak.

    Most significantly, when it comes to his priorities, it seems like first is taking care of the things he needs to take care of (food, work, class, gas, bills, etc.), then spending time with me and doing things together, then finally engaging in other social activities. While we both are interested in socializing positively (volunteering, seeing friends, spending time with family, etc.), that always seems to take a backseat to our other priorities.

    In addition, the ocean-moonshine descriptions pushed me towards sp/sx:

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean-moonshine.net 9 Self-pres/Social
    This subtype is the most self-effacing of type Nine, possibly the least assertive of all the enneagram types. They can feel as though they have been looked over and passed by. While they do desire attention and recognition, with the sexual instinct last in the stacking, they seldom actively pursue it. They feel as though it’s just not worth it. This subtype is usually very deliberate and methodical in their speech. They sometimes get frustrated because they don’t feel that they can say what they really want to say. They are therefore often very short and concise with their communication, not wanting to provoke any confrontation. But when given a chance and the time to express themselves, they can be quite talkative. While self-pres needs are important to this type, the fact that they are essentially Nines, sometimes causes them to put the needs of others before their own. When under stress, this type is likely to do busy work, anything that distracts them from their problems.

    In relationships, the self-pres instinct combines with the merging qualities of the Nine to make a person committed and connected strongly in areas of security, home and other practical matters. They merge their environment with their loved ones. On the down side, this subtype can be passive-aggressive and withdraw under stress, holding back affection. They could possibly go long periods of time without talking to their spouse directly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean-moonshine.net 9 Self-pres/Sexual
    This subtype is self-effacing also, but is generally more assertive. They may be the subtype of Nine which is most aware of the boundaries between themselves and others and at the same time, possibly the most frustrated when those boundaries are violated.
    They can be aware of being walked over and they might even be aware of the anger it causes, but they become frustrated with their seeming inability to control this pattern. This is true, to some degree, of all Nines, but with the self-pres/sexual instinctual stacking, there seems to be a complex and interesting balance between the withdrawing energy caused by the dominant self-pres instinct and the assertive energy of the sexual instinct. This combination seems to raise consciousness of this dynamic.

    Getting healthy for this subtype, and for all Nines, involves becoming aware of this dynamic and realizing they do have the power to control their boundaries. Part of this must come from the realization on the part of the Nine that they have invited this overstepping of their boundaries from others by not defining them.

    Close relationships will usually work or not for this subtype depending on how well they deal with this issue.
    He's definitely not lacking self-assertion. He'll certainly try first to maintain harmony, and very much dislikes conflict, but once he's chosen a battle, he'll quickly and decisively address it. He doesn't have the same degree of tact that my ESFJ 2w1 sp/so mom does, and he doesn't seem to feel like there's much necessity for that. He also shares my atmospheric snobbery, being annoyed by distractions and interruptions and really appreciating aesthetic environments. He rarely holds back affection, as far as I can tell, and is frequently the one reaching out to me, despite him voicing that it feels uncharacteristic of him. We usually spend 6 hours a day together on workdays, and the entire day on most of our off days. He's quite demonstrative of affection... we recently went to a retirement dinner for a coworker and we got teased for visibly holding hands the whole time. I loved it and he seemed quite pleased, too. Tonight he told me about how he was discussing happy relationships at work today with his coworker who just got married, and was talking about us. He texts me often during the day, checking in on me. I really feel like the ocean-moonshine sp/sx description hit on a big issue with the boundaries, because that's something that struck me about him since the beginning. His boundaries are very important, though not always particularly clear to me.

    I'm not sold either way thus far. Anyone who has an opinion on this is more than welcome to weigh in.

  9. #19
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I harbor a suspicion that my boyfriend may be sp/sx and not sp/so like we both originally thought. We are both very certain he's an SJ, and he has confirmed 9w1 sp-dom as well.

    We both initially identified sp/so on these grounds: He is very politically and organizationally aware. He almost always knows the names of groups and their function, and he listens to public radio almost every morning to stay abreast of political issues. He is very interested in government functioning and structure, from military strategy to royal ranks. He affiliates himself with the public institution where he works and with the university where he studies (but rarely if ever did with a previous workplace he disliked). He has even once or twice networked one friend in business with another.
    Yes, these can be quite Social instinct related. I'm interested in politics and world events - albeit in the generalised Ne way. But a lot of these are structure related and that could be what is drawing him, rather than the Social, comparative elements. He also could take interest if he is a Fe user wanting to keep in touch with people and their goings on.

    However, the below is what is getting to me:

    While he is an easygoing and optimistic 9w1, he is also rather quick to draw a solid and curt boundary between himself and another person. He will freely insult someone who has been rude to him, provided he is not at work. He was strictly raised with proper etiquette and behavior, so he still retains much of that, but he also doesn't seem to change very much from hiking a mountain to eating at a fancy restaurant. He does not seem particularly concerned with image and very much dislikes pretense. He enjoys going to the country club, but seems to most appreciate the amenities and comfort - the pool, the food, his friends, the atmosphere, the happy memories. He likes being well-respected and stable but he doesn't seem to be interested in active social positioning, so to speak.

    Most significantly, when it comes to his priorities, it seems like first is taking care of the things he needs to take care of (food, work, class, gas, bills, etc.), then spending time with me and doing things together, then finally engaging in other social activities. While we both are interested in socializing positively (volunteering, seeing friends, spending time with family, etc.), that always seems to take a backseat to our other priorities.
    Yeah this doesn't sound much like the social instinct. Social-lasts seem to be driven more my their own inclinations and don't really seem to second guess them much - whereas a Social-1st, and to a lesser extend a Social-2nd, might waiver and worry about how they might come off. Social-lasts are less aware of what's "appropriate" and don't adapt as much, or as well, to the situation. They tend to be people that talk about "being true to themselves", as if changing a little might somehow undermine their integrity or character. Social-firsts on the other hand are always looking to adapt to the situation and will shift their behaviour accordingly. This is not to say they are less "true to themselves" than So-lasts, it's just that they don't see adaptability as a threat to their sense of self.

    Also I hope I didn't give you the impression the So-users are polite and So-lasts are not. Politeness is not related to it. Although, So-users might be polite for different reasons than So-lasts, and may have different definitions of what politeness constitutes.

    In addition, the ocean-moonshine descriptions pushed me towards sp/sx:

    He's definitely not lacking self-assertion. He'll certainly try first to maintain harmony, and very much dislikes conflict, but once he's chosen a battle, he'll quickly and decisively address it. He doesn't have the same degree of tact that my ESFJ 2w1 sp/so mom does, and he doesn't seem to feel like there's much necessity for that. He also shares my atmospheric snobbery, being annoyed by distractions and interruptions and really appreciating aesthetic environments. He rarely holds back affection, as far as I can tell, and is frequently the one reaching out to me, despite him voicing that it feels uncharacteristic of him. We usually spend 6 hours a day together on workdays, and the entire day on most of our off days. He's quite demonstrative of affection... we recently went to a retirement dinner for a coworker and we got teased for visibly holding hands the whole time. I loved it and he seemed quite pleased, too. Tonight he told me about how he was discussing happy relationships at work today with his coworker who just got married, and was talking about us. He texts me often during the day, checking in on me. I really feel like the ocean-moonshine sp/sx description hit on a big issue with the boundaries, because that's something that struck me about him since the beginning. His boundaries are very important, though not always particularly clear to me.

    I'm not sold either way thus far. Anyone who has an opinion on this is more than welcome to weigh in.
    Are you sure he's 9w1? A lot of what you've been saying sound like 9w8. I think the 8 wing sounds more aggressive than it really is, so people often don't consider it a possibility. My Dad's a 9w8 and is the most easy going guy, but he doesn't have the softness or philosophical bent of a 9w1.

    How does this description sound?

    9w8

    9w8 is about calmness(nine) from a position of strength(eight). They choose to be calm as opposed to feeling they have to maintain being calm to avoid conflict or estrangement like a 9w1. They don't invite conflict but don't shy away from it either as they nip conflict in the bud as quickly as possible. They are the most "chill" of the instinctive triaders. They have the best balance in their personal boundaries as they are halfway in between being a doormat and dominating others. This is why they are generally the most likeable of all subtypes.

    9w8 is called the "comfort-seeker" and wants to make life easier for themselves. They are firmly grounded in their bodies with an emphasis on being physically comfortable. Hardly anything bothers them. They aren't nearly as hard on themselves as 9w1s. They are easygoing but can be direct with others if forced out of their comfort zone as they are much more assertive than their 9w1 siblings. While they have a bias towards letting things work out on their own they have no problem stepping in and settling things.

    9w8s have an ego in being grounded in reality. They pride themselves in being simple regular people. They take pleasure in noticing when there isn't any point to discussing something, often to the extent of exhibiting a "who cares" apathy. Asserting their self-importance certainly falls in that category. While they are realistic about themselves they have a tendency to be underestimated by others. Like eights they play down and trivialize what's not worth dwelling on as "no big deal". Not getting what they want is also declared "no big deal" and therefore not that important. They tend to be attracted to the outdoors and other physical activities. They mainly fear permanently losing loved ones.

    9w8s are more genial and practical. They are significantly less withdrawn than 9w1s. Although they are less intuitive than 9w1s, they have a natural sense of rhythm for the ebb and flow of things around them. They have an ability to make anyone like them even when they are being irreverent and mischevious. They have an "it's all good" attitude as nothing appears to bother them. In response to a prank they might go "nice one" whereas a 9w1 would initially seem dazed and taken aback before saying it's alright. 9w8s have an overt(eight) haze(nine) in comparison to the more repressed(one) haze(nine) of 9w1s. Like all 9s they have trouble expressing anger directly and become less focused when they do. Their 8 wing though makes them more able to blow off steam by expressing anger physically at least, like throwing stuff in fustration.
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  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also I hope I didn't give you the impression the So-users are polite and So-lasts are not. Politeness is not related to it. Although, So-users might be polite for different reasons than So-lasts, and may have different definitions of what politeness constitutes.
    I think I understand what you mean. What I was expressing was it's more about the ability if you want, because So-users naturally have a better understanding of the social currents. It's just like how with Sx I'm very fluent in relationship issues, because I focus on it so damned much. It's not that I'm always a good confidante, but because of my constant focus on pair bonding, I can be quite skilled if and when I choose to be. It's just that with him, it's hard for me to differentiate, because he was raised with stringent etiquette. For example, we both agree that it's almost never bad thing to be slightly overdressed, and we both tend to dress a little nicer than the average bear. I could relate this to my enneatype in that I feel more secure when I'm dressed more nicely - more ready for anything and less likely to be poorly judged - but there's also just the fact that I like wearing dresses. So, which is which? His style is sort of "relaxed prep". It seems to suit him well because he likes to look presentable and professional but be comfortable. I can easily tie the comfort into 9, but then I like being comfortable too... so many factors.

    Are you sure he's 9w1? A lot of what you've been saying sound like 9w8. I think the 8 wing sounds more aggressive than it really is, so people often don't consider it a possibility. My Dad's a 9w8 and is the most easy going guy, but he doesn't have the softness or philosophical bent of a 9w1.

    How does this description sound?
    I see what you mean, and I've considered it. He's certainly got aspects of both wings. He really has a lot of 1 traits, though, being rather superego-driven and a little bit high-strung in certain ways. Compared to the description, he does actively avoid conflict, and bemoans it when he feels like it could have been avoidable. I don't see much of "dominating others" in him - he seems to seek independence/autonomy much more strongly than any sort of control. He's very hard on himself, though he seeks comfort. Rarely has he dropped a subject because of seeming pointlessness - he's only ever dropped a conversation with me when I've turned hostile. He will minimize conflict, though. He enjoys the outdoors but prefers it to be somewhat relaxed/controlled. I've never seen him take frustration out physically - he seems to shut down more than getting wound up. He keeps it inside.

    My ISTP little brother is a clear 9w8 and I see him so clearly in that description, while my boyfriend tends to be more controlled, more in his head, more imaginative, less action-oriented, having more of a need to be "good"/upright, more of a need to actively improve himself, more of need to use his knowledge to impact others. Overall, he seems more w1 to me. He has the comfort-seeking of the 9 but often seems to be in his head and trying to adjust things to be more comfortable - he even presents that in his physical body. How much of this is SJ versus SP, how much is wing versus wing, how much is instinct variant, how much is simple individual human variation? That's what I'm having such a hard time clarifying. Everything seems relative.

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