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  1. #191
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardsen View Post
    How old are U???
    Why ask?
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Why ask?
    Because your age gives also important clues about your "raw bestial nature" :yim_rolling_on_the_

    Still, if instinctual variants can be explained by other factors (no matter how many) they're redundant. You're just trying to reduce the product of complex factors to a suppossed "instinct"; the difference is that social factors are observable while these instincts are just speculative.

    And these instincts are indeed arbitrary, because they've chosen to talk about only 3 instincts, but they could have talked about 4 or about one. Why, for example, are social and sexual needs separated from self-preservation? Sexuality and social ties serve the purpose of survival as much as food, health or temperature; this is the only reason for having social and sexual needs on the first place, there's no logical reason for considering them separatedly.

    So well, instinctual variants differentiate people according to their raw needs, I give you that. You can differentiate among persons inside enneatype 2, for example, according to their needs of sex, social relationships or s-p. Still, you're leaving aside tons of others parameters which could also help to differentiate among those persons. You could have made the difference among 2's according to their artistic aptitudes, their interest in knowledge, or whatever that is also part of personality and isn't explained by enneatype and wing.
    So why leave other parameters aside and instead give so much importance to sex, social and sp needs? This is arbitrary.

    But what remains a mistery to me is why you've taken this issue as a personal offense on the first place. What, are you one of the developers of instinctual stackings, do they pay you each time you prove somebody just how wonderful these stackings are?
    you will hear one ugly voice and see one ugly spirit
    is made of ugly old prerecordings the more you run the tapes through and cut them up the less power they will have
    cut the prerecordings into air into thin air (The Ticket that Exploded- William Burroughs)

  3. #193
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylor17387 View Post
    Because your age gives also important clues about your "raw bestial nature" :yim_rolling_on_the_

    Still, if instinctual variants can be explained by other factors (no matter how many) they're redundant.
    Social factors, the place where you were born, family environment etc, are innate characterist.
    Personality is aqcuired characteristc.

    Completely different, you are off-topic, go back too school.

    You're just trying to reduce the product of complex factors to a suppossed "instinct"; the difference is that social factors are observable while
    You are basically on the side of naive holism, like if we were all conditioned by our social environment, without any differences possible, it's wrong.

    these instincts are just speculative.
    Prove it. The only one speculating here is you. And it's ackward and pathetic.

    And these instincts are indeed arbitrary, because they've chosen to talk about only 3 instincts, but they could have talked about 4 or about one. Why, for example, are social and sexual needs separated from self-preservation? Sexuality and social ties serve the purpose of survival as much as food, health or temperature; this is the only reason for having social and sexual needs on the first place, there's no logical reason for considering them separatedly.
    It is not separated since there's the notion of stacking. Elsewhere, there's thousands of instincts, but scientist have analysed it and judged that it could be concentrated in three big sector of life that we have gradually to deal during the childhood development. If you think you know better than them while you've never studied the subject, you are laughable.

    Still, you're leaving aside tons of others parameters which could also help to differentiate among those persons.
    Were you aware that we are not talking about individual personality but about types of personality? Every characteristic of a person can give clues to find the type, and ty type allow a global understanding of their personality.

    You could have made the difference among 2's according to their artistic aptitudes, their interest in knowledge, or whatever that is also part of personality and isn't explained by enneatype and wing.
    Enneagram has never been supposed to explain every behaviors and characteristics of a person, but only the problematic behavior which arises when they are entranced and in autopilot. You're off-topic.


    So why leave other parameters aside and instead give so much importance to sex, social and sp needs?
    Theses parameters are not put aside, but took in account to find the type. There can also be behavior which has not anything especially to do with the personality type. It does'nt matter, the type and the instinctual variant are dignosis, it has never been supposed to describe every characteristics of a person, such system is impossible to buld and would be totalitarian, that does'nt make theses dignosis less accurate and arbirtrary.

    But what remains a mistery to me is why you've taken this issue as a personal offense on the first place.
    I don't take it as personal offense, I simply don't have patience with idiots.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Social factors, the place where you were born, family environment etc, are innate characterist.
    Personality is aqcuired characteristc.
    Social factors aren't innate characteristics, they're external to the person, and are the source (together with personality, which is indeed acquired, and other factors: biological and so on...) of people's approach to sex, society and sp. There's no such thing as instinctual stackings causing these behaviours; they depend on lots of different things, and fluctuate according to personal circumstances (as opposed to personality, which remains stable).
    Sexual and social needs only arise once the person has satisfied his/her most basic needs (food, drink, shelter); only then they become their primary interest.




    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    You are basically on the side of naive holism, like if we were all conditioned by our social environment, without any differences possible, it's wrong.
    I've never said such thing. If you don't know how to interpret other people's ideas is your problem.



    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Prove it. The only one speculating here is you. And it's ackward and pathetic.
    Prove it, prove it, prove it... That's your answer for everything, but you haven't proved anything from your side yet; you've just rambled about how much do you know Lady Gaga, and how stupid is everybody except you. You're the only one who speculates here, and the most pathetic for sure.



    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It is not separated since there's the notion of stacking. Elsewhere, there's thousands of instincts, but scientist have analysed it and judged that it could be concentrated in three big sector of life that we have gradually to deal during the childhood development. If you think you know better than them while you've never studied the subject, you are laughable.
    Which scientists?
    All instincts are the result of evolution, all of them serve the purpose of survival. In this way, all instincts are self-preservational. You're separating sexual and social instincts from sp. I don't care if you later stack them or not, you have separated them on the first place; that's arbitrary.
    If you're unable to see that, then I give up. It's not my fault that your head is made of bricks



    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Were you aware that we are not talking about individual personality but about types of personality? Every characteristic of a person can give clues to find the type, and ty type allow a global understanding of their personality.Enneagram has never been supposed to explain every behaviors and characteristics of a person, but only the problematic behavior which arises when they are entranced and in autopilot. You're off-topic.
    I haven't doubted the validity of enneatypes. Don't distort my words.


    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Theses parameters are not put aside, but took in account to find the type. There can also be behavior which has not anything especially to do with the personality type. It does'nt matter, the type and the instinctual variant are dignosis, it has never been supposed to describe every characteristics of a person, such system is impossible to buld and would be totalitarian, that does'nt make theses dignosis less accurate and arbirtrary.
    Exactly, and since you can't measure each and every parameter, what's the point of measuring sex, social and sp inclinations? Either you analyze every possible subgroup, parameter and characteristic, or you just leave the general groups as they are. Enneatype and wing are enough to describe personality, and help people to see their fixations and surpass them.
    Instinctual stackings are just describing particular behaviours, which change over time depending on lots of factors; knowing that somebody is more interested in sex than in social interactions is not more important than knowing if that person is more or less inclined to religion. It says nothing about their personality, it helps nobody.


    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I don't take it as personal offense, I simply don't have patience with idiots.
    Don't make me laugh, sonny. You've taken this personally from the very begining. And you're the only idiot here, a blind follower of a system, totally unable to examine even the slightest criticism. You've proved several times in this thread how little rationality you have, answering both me and other posters with dogmatic sentences, insults and without logical argumentations.

    But well, I'll leave you in peace with your beliefs. There's no point in continuing this discussion. It's like discussing evolutionist theories with christian fundamentalists. We're not going to reach any conclusion with this.
    And above all, I haven't started this thread and the theme they wanted to discuss here is not this one.

    Have a nice day.

    you will hear one ugly voice and see one ugly spirit
    is made of ugly old prerecordings the more you run the tapes through and cut them up the less power they will have
    cut the prerecordings into air into thin air (The Ticket that Exploded- William Burroughs)

  5. #195
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylor17387 View Post
    Social factors aren't innate characteristics, they're external to the person, and are the source (together with personality, which is indeed acquired, and other factors: biological and so on...) of people's approach to sex, society and sp.
    The social place where you live and your biologic characteristics are innates, your enenatype and your instinctual variant is aquired, if you don't know that, you're stupid.

    There's no such thing as instinctual stackings causing these behaviours;
    Prove it.

    they depend on lots of different things, and fluctuate according to personal circumstances (as opposed to personality, which remains stable).
    People who get the same social factors display different behaviors, while people who have the same instinctual variant display similars behavior despite their differents social factors. Proof that of the existence of an empiric phenomenon.

    Sexual and social needs only arise once the person has satisfied his/her most basic needs (food, drink, shelter); only then they become their primary interest.
    If you had any knowledge about the instinctual typology, you would know that this is precisely what it says. You just proved your ignorance. STFU and go back to school.

    Prove it, prove it, prove it... That's your answer for everything, but you haven't proved anything from your side yet; you've just rambled about how much do you know Lady Gaga, and how stupid is everybody except you.

    I have brought FACTS. Proved the indisputable effect of wing and instincts in just two pics. While on your side you have nothing else than intelectual masturbation and dumb criticism. Speculation without any concrete facts.

    Which scientists?

    I don't have the time to bring you a lesson about biology, sorry.


    All instincts are the result of evolution, all of them serve the purpose of survival.
    Nothing in enneagram says the contrary and I've never said the contrary. You are'nt bringing new ideas here but just an guy who does'nt know what he is talking about and is involved in dumb criticism for the sake of it: a troll.

    In this way, all instincts are self-preservational.
    Nonsense. The self-pres instinct's role is to assure your survival in the realm of self-preservation, while social's is to assure your survival in the social realm and sexual's to assure your survival in the realm of one-to-one relationships. But of course you are ignorant of that.

    You're separating sexual and social instincts from sp. I don't care if you later stack them or not, you have separated them on the first place; that's arbitrary.
    Every scientific categories are arbitrary by definition, that does'nt mean they are not accurates.

    xactly, and since you can't measure each and every parameter, what's the point of measuring sex, social and sp inclinations? Either you analyze every possible subgroup, parameter and characteristic, or you just leave the general groups as they are.
    You can analyse a group as it it and leave it be as it is. An analysis is not a control. And who talked about "measuring"?

    Enneatype and wing are enough to describe personality, and help people to see their fixations and surpass them.
    The enenatype and wing show one side of people, the instinctual variant another. The instinctual variant is often more visible than the enenatype itself, nd combined with the enenagram, help to identify an essential emotional coping strategy, an so "help people to see their fixations and surpass them". Plus it helps to find the enneatype of people with more accuracy.


    Instinctual stackings are just describing particular behaviours, which change over time depending on lots of factors
    No. Like the enneatype, the instinctual variant arise during the childhood development and last a lifetime.

    knowing that somebody is more interested in sex than in social interactions is not more important than knowing if that person is more or less inclined to religion.
    It's not because it does'nt interest you that it's not useful. And the instinctual variants can help to understand what drive someone to be interested with religion.

    It says nothing about their personality, it helps nobody.
    Prove it.

    [quote]a blind follower of a system, totally unable to examine even the slightest criticism. [|/quote]

    I can consider inteligent criticism. But it's not what you did so far. I was very skeptical about enneagram and instinctual typology at first, but I studied it and eventually jusdged that it was accurate. I'm not a blind follower. Except if I'am a blind follower for not saying you "jawhol mein fürher, you' re right" and be a blind follower of you.

    You've proved several times in this thread how little rationality you have, answering both me and other posters with dogmatic sentences, insults and without logical argumentations.
    I've never seen any logical argumentation in thoses who contradicted me on that topic, including you. All I seen is VagrantFarce playing the 12 years old kid saying "instinctual typlogy is too much difficult for me, so it's useless", and some blind followers of him.

    But well, I'll leave you in peace with your beliefs. There's no point in continuing this discussion. It's like discussing evolutionist theories with christian fundamentalists. We're not going to reach any conclusion with this.
    And above all, I haven't started this thread and the theme they wanted to discuss here is not this one.

    Yeah yeah.

    I left you a chance to explain your "ideas" to see if you had any logical and insightfull argument to provide. But as expected you have nothing. So it's indeed better for you to stop now than continue and admit your defeat. Have a nice day.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  6. #196
    Senior Member Richardsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Why ask?
    bcs catches my atention your loudy-childisdh-attention hungry boy attitude...

    Now im outta here...


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  7. #197
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardsen View Post
    bcs catches my atention your loudy-childisdh-attention hungry boy attitude...

    Now im outta here...
    Don't you find taylor's "argumentation" childish as well? It's normal in this case if I answer in a childish way. I try to be at his level.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  8. #198
    Senior Member Richardsen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Don't you find taylor's "argumentation" childish as well? It's normal in this case if I answer in a childish way. I try to be at his level.
    The 2 are engaged in a useless discusion, taylor too.
    But if the two want... keep it this way and debate, to me is pointless and boring.


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  9. #199
    Senior Member Vizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardsen View Post
    The 2 are engaged in a useless discusion, taylor too.
    But if the two want... keep it this way and debate, to me is pointless and boring.
    ...ideally in another thread.

    So...is everyone bored with talking about instinctual variants now?
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  10. #200
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzy View Post
    ...ideally in another thread.

    So...is everyone bored with talking about instinctual variants now?
    Hahaha, I think I said mostly what I needed to say

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