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  1. #161
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    No of course not, I'm just reacting against the temptation to cover every possible variation in behaviour and motivation, since it's needless and tells you nothing about anyone. The enneagram is a self-help tool, first and foremost, and should be treated as such - it is not meant to be an absolute catalogue of human behaviour. I think that the wings and instinctual stackings are arbitrary, and frankly do more harm than good since they obfuscate how perceptive the enneagram can be.
    Enneagram is a map of the human condition from the very beginning. The instincts are an observable natural phenomenon, and the wing truly represent the two sides of each type. The type 5w4 exist, as well as the type 5w6, and it's the same forevery types. It's not arbitrary, it has'nt be decided by someone, but observed and discovered. The enneagram is just perceptive about your acquired personality, not about what you can be when you put that acquired personality away. So it makes sense to study what wings and instincts makles you act on autopilot, your bestial nature and your emotional coping strategy to deaal with it. Instintual typology help you also to type people with accuracy, and not confuse someone who is Sp with a 5, someone who is Sx with a 4 or a 7, someone who is So with a 3 etc.

    If you neglect wing and insitnct, you miss the point of enenagram and you necessarly misuse it or in an imperfect way.


    Your motivations are constantly churning away inside you, regardless of how you choose to deal with them - you don't need the enneagram to tell you that.
    Of course since motivations have noting to do with the enneatype. Te enneatyp is a settle of propositions wich you perceive the world through. The instinctual variant is the big sector of life where we are instinctively specialised.

    Have you seen my link? It proves you wrong.
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  2. #162
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Enneagram is a map of the human condition from the very beginning. The instincts are an observable natural phenomenon, and the wing truly represent the two sides of each type. The type 5w4 exist, as well as the type 5w6, and it's the same forevery types. It's not arbitrary, it has'nt be decided by someone, but observed and discovered. The enneagram is just perceptive about your acquired personality, not about what you can be when you put that acquired personality away. So it makes sense to study what wings and instincts makles you act on autopilot, your bestial nature and your emotional coping strategy to deaal with it. Instintual typology help you also to type people with accuracy, and not confuse someone who is Sp with a 5, someone who is Sx with a 4 or a 7, someone who is So with a 3 etc.
    But it's only real use is as a self-help tool - you can only truly identify yourself on it. If you're trying to model all of human behaviour, it's not a very good one to follow. At best, it helps us to consider the following: What do you truly need out of life? How are you addressing it?

    Ultimately, this is what I'm arguing: When you try to categorise too many variations in behaviour and motivation, the temptation is to simply keep going - and that obfuscates things when people come along and try to identify themselves on it, since it becomes out of touch with how people really are and why they're seeking out things like the enneagram in the first place. People are too complex to map out and model to the minutest detail in this manner - and so you have to leave as much room as possible for people to truly find and understand themselves. This is where the enneagram can be truly mesmerising.

    And that link you posted is speculation at best - it doesn't really set out to prove anything. I can just as easily use it as an example of what the enneagram isn't really suited to.
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  3. #163
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    But it's only real use is as a self-help tool - you can only truly identify yourself on it. If you're trying to model all of human behaviour, it's not a very good one to follow. At best, it helps us to consider the following: What do you truly need out of life? How are you addressing it?

    Ultimately, this is what I'm arguing: When you try to categorise too many variations in behaviour and motivation, the temptation is to simply keep going - and that obfuscates things when people come along and try to identify themselves on it, since it becomes out of touch with how people really are and why they're seeking out things like the enneagram in the first place. People are too complex to map out and model to the minutest detail in this manner - and so you have to leave as much room as possible for people to truly find and understand themselves. This is where the enneagram can be truly mesmerising.

    And that link you posted is speculation at best - it doesn't really set out to prove anything. I can just as easily use it as an example of what the enneagram isn't really suited to.
    I agree that it's not a good thing to be too much fixated and categorization but that does'nt mean that theses categories don't truly exist. Don't you see the difference? It's like a 12 years old kid who says "I don't understand math I don't care about it, i think it's useless, so I don't do my homework". Yes, but that does'nt mean that math are unacurates.

    And it's not because you don't want to look at subcateogories that theses subcategories are unacurates. Your argumentation is very wobbly on this. "There's tons of reasons why GWBS and Lady Gaga are differents", like if none of theses reasons were dues do the instinctual stacking. The truth is that the instinctual typology is not a subtypology but another typology wich give its own set of inforfmation about people and help a lot to undersand our mechanism, combined with enneagram, there is an emotional coping strategy called the subtype, soemthing that we can't neglect.

    You can personally choose to not care about this, but that does'nt prevent theses mechanism to exist. It's not the typologist who choose to close people in box, it's peoples themselves who are in boxes, the typologist just tell what are theses box and then we can leave more room for action, when you are unleash from theses box. The wing also, exist and is not put arbitrary. Trifix is different, trifix is bullshit.

    And that link you posted is speculation at best - it doesn't really set out to prove anything. I can just as easily use it as an example of what the enneagram isn't really suited to.
    Sorry but no, it's not a speculation. It's not something imagined. Theses peoples truly exist and there type is phisically obsevables, there's not "speculation" here. You can type theses people, and then you can type other peoples, I do that everyday, it's a reproductible process, it works. Of course you can't put your head in the sand and neglect the reality to believe you are right, but that don't prevent this process to work.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  4. #164
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I agree that it's not a good thing to be too much fixated and categorization but that does'nt mean that theses categories don't truly exist. Don't you see the difference? It's like a 12 years old kid who says "I don't understand math I don't care about it, i think it's useless, so I don't do my homework". Yes, but that does'nt mean that math are unacurates.
    I don't care whether it seems "accurate" or not, I'm talking more about the effect it has. And we're not dealing with mathematics, we're dealing with actual people and their emotional choices. That makes a huge difference, and is ultimately what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Sorry but no, it's not a speculation. It's not something imagined. Theses peoples truly exist and there type is phisically obsevables, there's not "speculation" here. You can type theses people, and then you can type other peoples, I do that everyday, it's a reproductible process, it works. Of course you can't put your head in the sand and neglect the reality to believe you are right, but that don't prevent this process to work.
    But it IS speculation - they're guesses at best, because the enneagram is by its a nature subjective and vague - and I sincerely doubt that anyone who contributed to that list ever met or has known these celebrities intimately enough to really understand who they are. You're treating the enneagram like it's an objective system, and that it can easily quantify people from a distance, when it really can't - it's not built for it. It's a fundamentally subjective illustration of people.
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  5. #165
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I don't care whether it seems "accurate" or not, I'm talking more about the effect it has. And we're not dealing with mathematics, we're dealing with actual people and their emotional choices. That makes a huge difference, and is ultimately what I'm talking about.
    I've shown you in two pictures how strong the effect can be.



    But it IS speculation
    Prove it.

    has known these celebrities intimately enough to really understand who they are.
    You don't need to know a celebrity to understand her. You can read about them, study them and read people who truly know them. It works also on people you truly know. I type people I know all the time.

    You're treating the enneagram like it's an objective system

    and that it can easily quantify people from a distance, when it really can't -
    It is an objective system. Everyone has a type. Prove the contrary.

    it's not built for it.
    The enneagram had not been built but discovered. Like the pythagore theorem or something. And the enneagram was initially adopted by pytaghoricians.

    It's a fundamentally subjective illustration of people.
    Prove it.


    You're basically saying "I'm not good at typing, so the system does'nt work". That's not a consisten way to deal with things.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  6. #166
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    it seems to me that Sx doms have a tendency to want to "get to know you" and if it turns into sex, that's just part of life while Sx second types tend to seek sex a little more deliberately. this is just speculation though
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  7. #167
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    I've shown you in two pictures how strong the effect can be.
    What effect? I think you're miss-understanding me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Prove it.
    Oh honestly, let's not kid ourselves for the sake of argument. That list, at best, is an educated guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It is an objective system. Everyone has a type. Prove the contrary.
    I'm sorry, but the enneagram hardly meets the criteria for empirical falsifiability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    You're basically saying "I'm not good at typing, so the system does'nt work". That's not a consisten way to deal with things.
    I'm really not saying that at all...

    This is what I'm saying:

    The enneagram, at it's best, is a tool for self-improvement - to help understand oneself and others. It's one particular way of looking at people, and is not built as an objective catalogue of human behaviour or motivation. To treat it as such and to over-complicate things ultimately obfuscates what is so revealing about it in the first place.
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  8. #168
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    What effect?
    GWBS and Lady Gaga are completely different despite they have the same enneatype. You're trying to say that that has nothing to do with wing and instincts, you're wrong.


    Oh honestly, let's not kid ourselves for the sake of argument. That list, at best, is an educated guess.
    Prove it.



    I'm sorry, but the enneagram hardly meets the criteria for empirical falsifiability.
    It's grounded in the narrative tradition. When you are in workshops with people of the same type, they seem differents at first, but suddenly realize how similars they are. You get the impression that it is just theorical because you approach it at a theorical level only, but the accuracy of enneagram is observable in facts, something that you see when you leave the house and the computer and look around.



    I'm really not saying that at all...
    You did'nt say it openly but that's what your behavior means.

    is not built as an objective catalogue of human behaviour or motivation.
    Wrong.

    To treat it as such and to over-complicate things ultimately obfuscates what is so revealing about it in the first place.
    As I ever shown to you, the wongs and instinctual variants are blatant and don't obfuscate anything. Instinctual typology is a separate typology and the instinctual variant is often easyer to find than the enneatype.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  9. #169
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    GWBS and Lady Gaga are completely different despite they have the same enneatype. You're trying to say that that has nothing to do with wing and instincts, you're wrong.
    No, that isn't what I said - I said that there are hundreds of thousands of different reasons why they're different.

    Listen, I'm not trying to say that the stackings & wings & tri-types & everything else can't be applied to people, because they can - people do it all the time. I'm questioning whether they should be, whether they are fit enough to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's grounded in the narrative tradition. When you are in workshops with people of the same type, they seem differents at first, but suddenly realize how similars they are. You get the impression that it is just theorical because you approach it at a theorical level only, but the accuracy of enneagram is observable in facts, something that you see when you leave the house and the computer and look around.
    I'm not arguing that it's "only" theoretical, or that it isn't applicable - what I'm arguing is that it's subjective and that it paints best with broad strokes, and shouldn't be treated as an objective and extensible catalogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    You did'nt say it openly but that's what your behavior means.
    Listen, I'm not interested in playing silly games with you, so I'm going to let you know that everything I am saying is up-front and honest and what I actually think. There's no hidden agenda to uncover here, so I'd like it if you treated me with a bit of respect.
    Hello

  10. #170
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    No, that isn't what I said - I said that there are hundreds of thousands of different reasons why they're different.

    Listen, I'm not trying to say that the stackings & wings & tri-types & everything else can't be applied to people, because they can - people do it all the time. I'm questioning whether they should be, whether they are fit enough to be.
    There's nothing wich say that we "should" use it either, there's no "should" it's facultative, but you eventually have to use it, even before you know the enneatype of someone.


    I'm not arguing that it's "only" theoretical, or that it isn't applicable - what I'm arguing is that it's subjective and that it paints best with broad strokes, and shouldn't be treated as an objective and extensible catalogue.
    I think that people are objectibely in a place in the enneagram, always. Now some people have subjective impression about what type someone can be. Someone can think a person is of one type, and another one think he is of another type, one of them is wrong. Maybe we can paint best with broad strokes, but as I ever said, the instinctual variant is often more visible than the enneatype itself. If people of the same enneatyp are similars despite their differents wing and stackings, people of a same stacking are similars despite they are of a different enneatype. So the enneatype can be seen as a broad stroke, but the instinctual variant too.


    Listen, I'm not interested in playing silly games with you, so I'm going to let you know that everything I am saying is up-front and honest and what I actually think. There's no hidden agenda to uncover here, so I'd like it if you treated me with a bit of respect.
    Sorry.
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    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

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