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  1. #151
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It over-complicate only when you don't master it. The subtype is actually often more easy to find than the enneatype.
    I just feel it completely gets away from the reality of things - it's one too many "categories". You're no longer illustrating or getting in touch with the needs that people in your life express, or neglect, and how they do it, and why. You don't really learn anything from it. You're just categorising behaviour, arbitrarily, and it serves no function outside of itself.

    It is about instinct. In enneagram there's the mental fixation at the Head Center, the passion of the heart at the Heart Center, and the instincts at the Gut Center. If you say it's not instinctive, you completely miss the point.
    Well, I suppose what I mean to say is that it's not inclusive within the gut - these needs can be expressed & fulfilled in other ways, specifically mental & emotional ways. I also think that just because someone is neglecting a need for whatever reason, and seems to act neurotically or out-of-step with something, does not mean that isn't their primary need in life. People can very easily neglect their primary needs, something I think the low styles of each enneagram type help to illustrate very well.

    This also relates to my idea that the instincts aren't stacked - you have a primary motivation in life, and you're either fulfilling it, or you're not. Either way, it's on the radar, it's in your thoughts, it motivates your behaviour. You could be running away from it, making excuses for it, obsessing over it, chasing it, ignoring it, attacking it...whatever it is, it's like a magnet under the ground dragging you through life. And you're either tending to it or you're not.

    I honestly think that to make things more complicated than that serves no real purpose to anyone.
    Hello

  2. #152
    Senior Member Vizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I just feel it completely gets away from the reality of things - it's one too many "categories". You're no longer illustrating or getting in touch with the needs that people in your life express, or neglect, and how they do it, and why. You don't really learn anything from it. You're just categorising behaviour, arbitrarily, and it serves no function outside of itself.



    Well, I suppose what I mean to say is that it's not inclusive within the gut - these needs can be expressed & fulfilled in other ways, specifically mental & emotional ways. I also think that just because someone is neglecting a need for whatever reason, and seems to act neurotically or out-of-step with something, does not mean that isn't their primary need in life. People can very easily neglect their primary needs, something I think the low styles of each enneagram type help to illustrate very well.

    This also relates to my idea that the instincts aren't stacked - you have a primary motivation in life, and you're either fulfilling it, or you're not. Either way, it's on the radar, it's in your thoughts, it motivates your behaviour. You could be running away from it, making excuses for it, obsessing over it, chasing it, ignoring it, attacking it...whatever it is, it's like a magnet under the ground dragging you through life. And you're either tending to it or you're not.

    I honestly think that to make things more complicated than that serves no real purpose to anyone.
    I'm happy with this explanation, as opposed to the "he's not sx because he doesn't ooze sexiness" one which, in my humble opinion, seems over-simplified, shallow...and uninteresting.
    5w4
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  3. #153
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

    What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
    - Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
    - Being certain, knowing the answer
    - Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
    - Approval, being liked
    - Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
    - Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
    - Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

    I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).
    I identify with quite a few of those. Considering our ages, do you suppose it has to do as much with the beginning of adulthood as with actual type?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzy View Post
    *sigh* No one wants to discuss the theory...
    Hey now, I did ask for permission.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  4. #154
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

    What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
    - Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
    - Being certain, knowing the answer
    - Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
    - Approval, being liked
    - Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
    - Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
    - Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

    I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).
    6w5 Sp/Sx or Sp/So
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  5. #155
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

    What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
    - Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
    - Being certain, knowing the answer
    - Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
    - Approval, being liked
    - Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
    - Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
    - Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

    I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).
    I identify with quite a few of those. Considering our ages, do you suppose it has to do as much with the beginning of adulthood as with actual type?
    Maybe somewhat...I can see why "knowing the answer" would be important for a college student. But I didn't intend for it to be limited to certain contexts such as school. For example, on my type me thread, someone asked me what type I wanted to be, and I answered "the right type". For some reason, I just need to know my type, and I won't settle for a maybe. Right now I think I'm a 6, but I won't stop researching and questioning until I'm certain that this is the correct type. So that's kind of what I meant by needing to be certain and know the answer. I don't think my age has anything to do with that.

    And let me elaborate on another one, "clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)". It's more than just knowing the requirements and deadlines for school assignments. I've always been sensitive to ambiguity. If there's even a tiny bit of ambiguity that could make it possible to misinterpret something, I'll probably notice it, and I might go into a sort of panic trying to figure out what was meant and worrying that I might be misinterpreting it. I've had this happen before lots of times on tests at school, where I had to get up and ask the teacher what was meant in a slightly ambiguous question. I have no idea how everyone else always seemed to intuitively know what was intended in the question. Or at least they must have known because I always seemed to be the only one who had to ask. But again, it's not limited to school. I often have the same problem when communicating with people. If I'm not entirely sure what the person meant, I go through the same sort of panic process. :panic:

    Anyways, the things on the list have kind of always applied to me, and I don't really see them changing anytime soon. So while they could possibly have to do with my age, I kind of doubt it (at least for me anyways).

  6. #156
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzy View Post
    I'm happy with this explanation, as opposed to the "he's not sx because he doesn't ooze sexiness" one which, in my humble opinion, seems over-simplified, shallow...and uninteresting.
    Ok, you hav'nt get the point at all.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  7. #157
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I just feel it completely gets away from the reality of things - it's one too many "categories". You're no longer illustrating or getting in touch with the needs that people in your life express, or neglect, and how they do it, and why. You don't really learn anything from it. You're just categorising behaviour, arbitrarily, and it serves no function outside of itself.
    It's not arbitrary, it is actually in touch with reality and explained wry well the dramatic differences between people, including in the same type.

    How could you explain than this



    and this



    have the same type if you don't get the instinctual typology? The reality prove that you are wrong.



    Well, I suppose what I mean to say is that it's not inclusive within the gut - these needs can be expressed & fulfilled in other ways, specifically mental & emotional ways.
    Possible, but in this case, that has nothing to do with the instinctual variant.

    I also think that just because someone is neglecting a need for whatever reason, and seems to act neurotically or out-of-step with something, does not mean that isn't their primary need in life.
    The instinctual variant is not about our needs, we have needs in theses three big sector of life, the instinctual variant represent the instinctive mode of survival.


    honestly think that to make things more complicated than that serves no real purpose to anyone.
    As i ever said, it's wrong.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  8. #158
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's not arbitrary, it is actually in touch with reality and explained wry well the dramatic differences between people, including in the same type.

    How could you explain than that

    and that

    have the same type if you don't get the instinctual typology? The reality prove that you are wrong.
    There are hundreds of thousands of reasons why george bush is different to lady gaga, I'm saying that it's silly to try and explain that away with something like the enneagram. It has it's very positive uses, but you can only paint very broad strokes with it at best. And I believe that the stackings (as well as tri-types and wings) are a fool-hardy and miss-guided attempt to cover all possible variations, to the point that you're no longer dealing with actual people - you're dealing with fuzzy abstraction and vague generalisations at best. It achieves nothing, and you learn nothing about anyone, especially yourself.

    The instinctual variant is not about our needs, we have needs in theses three big sector of life, the instinctual variant represent the instinctive mode of survival.
    I can assure you, we're in the business of considering what people need, what people want and how they choose to go about it. To use this stuff for any other purpose is a waste of time.
    Hello

  9. #159
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    There are hundreds of thousands of reasons why george bush is different to lady gaga, I'm saying that it's silly to try and explain that away with something like the enneagram. It has it's very positive uses, but you can only paint very broad strokes with it at best. And I believe that the stackings (as well as tri-types and wings) are a fool-hardy and miss-guided attempt to cover all possible variations, to the point that you're no longer dealing with actual people - you're dealing with fuzzy abstraction and vague generalisations at best. It achieves nothing, and you learn nothing about anyone, especially yourself.
    I agree that tri-type is bullshit. It is based on misconceptions about enenagram and barnum effect.

    Do you think it's a hasard if Lady Gaga is similars to other Sx/So people and people from neighbor subtypes like 6w5 Sx/So, 6w7 Sx/Sp, 6w7 So/Sx or 7w6 Sx/So but with significants variations? Do you think it's a hazard if we can say the same thing about GWBS with other Sp/So or neighbor types?

    Theses categories deal with authentic people, and it's pretty easy to find the wing and the subtype of someone when you master that typology. Have you ever read seen this article? http://pastebin.com/gsAhzZqW

    It actually learn you a lot about yourself and and others, and also help you to type yourself and type others with more accuracy.

    I can assure you, we're in the business of considering what people need, what people want and how they choose to go about it. To use this stuff for any other purpose is a waste of time, in my opinion.
    The enneatypes and the subtypes is what work with us when we are entranced and in autopilot. Our motivations is what we can achieve when we unleash from that trance and autopilot. It's tghe second step, a different step, a different thing. The subtypes can represent our need, but it's more agressive that a simple "motivation", the subtypes represent our bestial nature, not something mental. It come from the guts and the passion of the heart. But someone with use his mental to think and talk about sex is not sexual, someone who use his mental to be a good buisnessman is not necessarly self-pres, and someone who use his mental for networking and for social project is not necessarly social.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  10. #160
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Do you think it's a hasard if Lady Gaga is similars to other Sx/So people and people from neighbor subtypes like 6w5 Sx/So, 6w7 Sx/Sp, 6w7 So/Sx or 7w6 Sx/So but with significants variations? Do you think it's a hazard if we can say the same thing about GWBS with other Sp/So or neighbor types?
    No of course not, I'm just reacting against the temptation to cover every possible variation in behaviour and motivation, since it's needless and tells you nothing about anyone. The enneagram is a self-help tool, first and foremost, and should be treated as such - it is not meant to be an absolute catalogue of human behaviour. I think that the wings and instinctual stackings are arbitrary, and frankly do more harm than good since they obfuscate how perceptive the enneagram can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    The enneatypes and the subtypes is what work with us when we are entranced and in autopilot. Our motivations is what we can achieve when we unleash from that trance and autopilot. It's tghe second step, a different step, a different thing. The subtypes can represent our need, but it's more agressive that a simple "motivation", the subtypes represent our bestial nature, not something mental. It come from the guts and the passion of the heart. But someone with use his mental to think and talk about sex is not sexual, someone who use his mental to be a good buisnessman is not necessarly self-pres, and someone who use his mental for networking and for social project is not necessarly social.
    Your motivations are constantly churning away inside you, regardless of how you choose to deal with them - you don't need the enneagram to tell you that. The enneagram is like every other self-help tool in the world - it helps us to identify whether we're truly acting in our own best interests. And the instincts, I feel, are a wonderful illustration of the subconscious needs that people express without realising it.
    Hello

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