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  1. #31
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    When I consider what sorts of things might have caused sp dominance, it kind of merges with e5 for me- because I can't really think of anything that challenged my physical survival when I was younger, only my autonomy as an individual.
    Hmmm, I'm not sure what develops first, instinctive variants or type. I doubt that sp always develops from a need general physical survival. I think it would evolve in relation to type - ie. what sp means to a 5. I imagine a sp 5 would have had an even greater struggle for security and comfort through withdrawal. It would exaggerate the 5 characteristics to a greater extreme.
    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Definitely seems possible/likely. I too was bullied, had no friends, but I had my sister, who has always loved me for me, and I had my books, my interests, my land to explore. I feel like I've always been relatively good at self-soothing. Social situations are kind of hit or miss for me- some I enjoy and I feel at ease, others I feel totally out of my element and avoid. So I have no idea what that means. I know that when I was bullied I just wanted to be left alone, I had no interest in hierarchy of power, etc. Unstable intimate relationships, however, destroy me. So I guess sp is where I'm most balanced, which makes me... Sx/sp?

    What you say reminds me much of a so dom four friend of mine.
    I did have a family who loved me but I did always feel my difference from them. They endevoured to understand me as best they could but of course it was easier for me to adapt to their ways than the other way around.

    Its hard to know with your situation. It may not be a requirement that your dominant variant is uncomfortable for you; that may be depend on enneagram and MBTI type. As a 4w5 (and an INFP) I would have preferred to have responded in a sp way but wasn't able to. I don't think this theory necessarily undermines you sp status.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Or would the dominant instinct be more like the aspect you keep trying to work on but it seems like you make little progress in this area, like you're never good enough for your standards at it? It's where you always feel a little inadequate even though it matters to you?
    That's certainly possible. I feel that way about so

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    In the book I have, they use the word "distorted". It's "twisted out of the true meaning or proportion". Somehow, during childhood, we possibly got the idea that the dominant variant meant something it didn't mean..... and possibly took on the idea that it meant more than it meant, or didn't mean. So it could just mean that we saw sx as being more important to survival and life than so or sp, for example, when in reality, it wasn't. Not necessarily damaged, but a distorted view of reality, and then we continue to live according to that view. (We continue to live with a distorted view that sx means more than sp or so, for example.) It seems like it could've come to fruition by simply watching my sx dad and learning from him, and therefore learning that sx was more important..... by seeing his distortions, and copy-catting them.
    Yes, these are good points.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  2. #32
    Member justwannabeMe's Avatar
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    great thread
    “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”

  3. #33
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread. Haven't read it all yet; will post again (or edit this post) once I have.

    In the meantime: One of the first things I wonder is whether extroverted children of introverts are more likely to be so-dom and/or sp-last? Introverts are more likely to be sp-dom, it seems like -- or, at least, to focus a lot on sp needs in their daily lives/as parents -- meaning, sp needs would be a given and always provided. And introverts also aren't as likely to have big circles of friends that they spend a lot of time with -- meaning, an extroverted child would have to work very hard from the get-go to meet their social needs, which the parents, as introverts, wouldn't understand all that well.

    (Obviously the above musings are biased, what with me being an extrovert, so/sx/sp, and the child of two introverted parents who are both likely sp first or second)

    Also not sure how I feel about the word "damaged", here, but I'll think on it...
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  4. #34
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    From this site.

    So, question for those who have studied enneagram for a longer time than myself: is this the prevailing assumption or is it more specific to this site/this person (Katherine Chernick Fauvre)? I can’t say I’ve researched instinct variant extensively, but this is the first time I’ve seen this.
    This is an enlightening thread. I missed it in 2011 as I was on a mini-hiatus at the time. Fauvre conducted a study of the existing literature on instinctual subtypes and also conducted surveys to gather a set of information, which is presented in this spiral bound document. If you can get through the disconnected nature of the content, it pulls together a lot of information from different sources into one place. There isn't a tremendous amount of analysis in there but I found it to be useful. It includes quotes and brief comments on each of the three instincts for each of the 9 enneatypes and a lot of references to other sources for the quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    In the book I have, they use the word "distorted". It's "twisted out of the true meaning or proportion". Somehow, during childhood, we possibly got the idea that the dominant variant meant something it didn't mean..... and possibly took on the idea that it meant more than it meant, or didn't mean. So it could just mean that we saw sx as being more important to survival and life than so or sp, for example, when in reality, it wasn't. Not necessarily damaged, but a distorted view of reality, and then we continue to live according to that view. (We continue to live with a distorted view that sx means more than sp or so, for example.) It seems like it could've come to fruition by simply watching my sx dad and learning from him, and therefore learning that sx was more important..... by seeing his distortions, and copy-catting them. I'm not so sure that my sx dominant came about because it was damaged, but possibly that something occurred psychologically to make me believe it was.

    I think that the damage occurs now because I view sx as being most important. If someone that I want rejects me sexually, it tears me apart, whereas, an so/sp can be rejected and it does a fraction of the damage. The damage is all in the mind. Damage: "Harm or injury to property or a person, resulting in loss of value or the impairment of usefulness." Yes, I suppose my sx is damaged (impaired, less healthy). I see this impairment existing as a manifestation of fear. Because the dominant instinct is powerful within me, I fear it more. Fear that I am going to be hurt by someone I adore, fear of giving all of myself and then being cheated on and rejected, fear that others will not think I am attractive, etc. And I fear these things because I fear the damages they can cause. (In other words, it hurts like fuck, and it takes me a while to recover lol). I fear the repercussions of any of these things happening, because it is dangerous to my health and survival. I fear that my dominant instinct is out-of-control, and therefore, I can be manipulated by it, so I try to control it.
    ICUP's description resonates pretty well for me. That might in part be because she's a 6 sx as well.

    The key thing that I see about this instinct subtype is that it's a "weakness masquerading as a strength." For an SP dominant type, their basic desire is for security and that can never be satisfied. There is never enough security. It is important to an excess of what it should be for the individual. For me as an Sx, intimate or one on one relationships is probably the area where I'm most vulnerable. It's not that I'm not good at developing and sustaining them - because I am quite good at it. There is however an over-preoccupation with this particular thing, a desire for more and an insecurity related to it that is a distortion of reality.

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  5. #35
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    The more you care about something, the more it's going to hurt when you fail to attain it; you're more vulnerable to losses in that area. I'm not an expert by any means, but I don't think I would equate "damaged" to "defective" here. It just makes sense that this is where a person would carry the bulk of their scars.

    My experience has been that I'm most "damaged" in the SX arena because it's my dominant instinct, and not the other way around. When it comes to personal growth, achieving it in this area is most important to me, so it's most prone to growing pains: the self-doubt, frustration and confusion that comes with attempted development.

    edit: I know that the subject of this thread is whether it was damaged originally -- but the theory doesn't make sense to me for the above reasons. I don't know, though.

  6. #36
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Also not sure how I feel about the word "damaged", here, but I'll think on it...
    Yes, the title is regrettable. I think I was still in the process of gathering info about it when I made the thread. I think I've emphasized originally, but it's still going to make people defensive to even loosely insinuate *damage*. If anything though, I'd say my least is 'damaged' now from years of neglect (on account of having been able to take it for granted growing up). I feel no urgency to meet so variant needs, but that doesn't make them go away- so it's a banal chore that I avoid wherever/whenever I can.

    ***

    I've since changed my opinion to being sx dom for myself- and really, it makes more sense than sp when taking 'originally most neglected need' into account. I was on the fence for a while, then finally decided to take Fauvre's online test- if those questions are any indication of the difference between sx and sp, then there's little doubt in my mind I'm sx.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #37
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    In the book I have, they use the word "distorted". It's "twisted out of the true meaning or proportion". Somehow, during childhood, we possibly got the idea that the dominant variant meant something it didn't mean..... and possibly took on the idea that it meant more than it meant, or didn't mean. So it could just mean that we saw sx as being more important to survival and life than so or sp, for example, when in reality, it wasn't. Not necessarily damaged, but a distorted view of reality, and then we continue to live according to that view. (We continue to live with a distorted view that sx means more than sp or so, for example.) It seems like it could've come to fruition by simply watching my sx dad and learning from him, and therefore learning that sx was more important..... by seeing his distortions, and copy-catting them. I'm not so sure that my sx dominant came about because it was damaged, but possibly that something occurred psychologically to make me believe it was.

    I think that the damage occurs now because I view sx as being most important. If someone that I want rejects me sexually, it tears me apart, whereas, an so/sp can be rejected and it does a fraction of the damage. The damage is all in the mind. Damage: "Harm or injury to property or a person, resulting in loss of value or the impairment of usefulness." Yes, I suppose my sx is damaged (impaired, less healthy). I see this impairment existing as a manifestation of fear. Because the dominant instinct is powerful within me, I fear it more. Fear that I am going to be hurt by someone I adore, fear of giving all of myself and then being cheated on and rejected, fear that others will not think I am attractive, etc. And I fear these things because I fear the damages they can cause. (In other words, it hurts like fuck, and it takes me a while to recover lol). I fear the repercussions of any of these things happening, because it is dangerous to my health and survival. I fear that my dominant instinct is out-of-control, and therefore, I can be manipulated by it, so I try to control it.

    The more I study typology, the more weird humans become haha.
    This is an awesome post. I was wondering how u came to the conclusion that you're sx/sp? I'm having trouble with figuring this out myself.
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