Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts Questions on figuring out my Instinctual Variants

[Sunny Ghost]

So, it's recently occurred to me that I may be wrong about my instinctual variant.

I had considered myself an sx/sp... debated between that and sp/sx. However, now after having read a bit more on sp/so... I could see that as fitting as well.

The reason I decided I was an sx/sp was because at the time I became familiar with enneagram and variants I was in a relationship of about 4 years. I felt deeply connected and in tune with this person. I considered him a soul mate. I wanted nothing but to align my life with his. However, at the same time, I felt torn for my independence. I feel as though, my life is my life... only I can live it and I want to experience it on my own two feet and not as a duo. But then, I'm torn in wanting romance and a lover for life and someone to deeply connect with and share experiences with. So... sx/sp seemed quite fitting.

Other reasons for considering sx is because I always had a tendency towards wanting rich and intense experiences. So much so, I was a bit of a disaster... But I wanted to seek connections in aspects of romance, friendship, even music, movies, books... But this could be me being a enneagram 4?

I considered SP as, though I felt a strong desire to connect... it wasn't always present. I was often a loner as well. I had a strong need to take care of myself. I crave and pride myself on my independence. I was an avid runner, ran cross country, went on whist-full walks by my lonesome, would go off on day hikes by my lonesome. I had a strong need to exercise daily, and not necessarily to please, but just for my self. So, SP/SO was a consideration as well. I'd even try to find a strong connection with my self, finding wholeness in myself as opposed to with someone else. Or intense experiences with art, music, books, not necessarily seeking another person.

Now, I'm considering SO for the first time. Reason being... I am highly concerned with my image. I hate this about myself. But I do indeed care what people think of me, what my neighbors think of me, and what my community thinks of me. However, I don't know if this is linked to how my mother raised me or because I've always detested the feeling of standing out. I've always been more of a wallflower, and so being more seemingly "normal" would keep me from standing out or keep me from being a topic of discussion. I had always considered myself to be a bit weird (perhaps also an aspect of being a 4).... but this could also just be Fi/Ni looping paranoia I had developed, nor do I want to stand out as being seen as a useless hippie or bum or druggy (maybe drug paranoia-but I'm clean now)... so I tossed a lot of that to the side, and wanted to be seen as unassuming.

Anyways... anyone have any idea how I can decipher? sx/sp? sp/sx? sp/so?

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I would also like to throw in some additional information or questions:

How fixed are our instinctual variant stackings? Do we change time to time?

Can a person be evenly distributed amongst all three? If not, why?

How much can our enneagram and stackings be affected by severe negative emotional health? A lot of the times, I feel as though I was a different person before, during and then after and have a hard time deciphering these things.

Also, how much can drug abuse affect the enneagram and stackings? My drug usage and depression nearly go in together hand in hand and there's a lot of blurring of the edges with the two. But, it's the same as with the previous question... I felt like a different person before, during and after.

 

[gromit]

I don't know what the theory is on it, but I feel like my instinctual variant stackings have changed over time.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I have a difficult time seeing them as fixed... but then again, I don't know much about the subject.

Here's what I found for Type 4's:

The Instinctual Stackings of Enneatype Four


Self-pres/Social

This subtype is the least volatile and fiery of the type Four stackings. They can resemble type One in terms of their efficiency and practicality. Although their focus will be more on the emotional aesthetic, these Fours do have a considerable practical side. Less flashy than some of the subtypes of Four, they nevertheless have a quiet charm and developed sense of style. They are likely to value their possessions, to perhaps collect items of personal emotional significance. They may, for instance, have shelves and shelves of books and have a place for each book. This subtype can also resemble type Six in terms of having a great deal of anxiety. This anxiety often revolves around self-pres concerns such as those surrounding health issues and mortality. Their strong self-pres instinct also lends a degree of independence to this subtype. As the sexual instinct is least pronounced, this subtype of Four is prone to romanticize intimacy without actually pursuing real relationships. When healthy, these Fours can be very productive; when less healthy they might suffer from boughts of melancholy or self pity. The strong self-pres instinct however often helps these individuals to recognize how their state of mind is impacting their health and well being. This enables them to become action oriented.


Self/Sexual

This subtype also cares very much about their surroundings and their possessions. They feel as if these things help to express who they are. There is more of a passionate sense about them as compared to the self/soc. They have more of a sensual relationship with their environment. These Fours are much more tortured by their difficulty with respect to maintaining close relationships. The self-preservational instinct tends to be in conflict with the sexual instinct, causing this subtype to habitually analyze their relationships to the point where they find it difficult to be present to them. When unhealthy, these Fours can become very disdainful of the social environment. They also start to envy the ease with which others seem to form relationships and maintain friendships. When Fours of this subtype are healthy, they find that they can form relationships without feeling as though they are sacrificing authenticity. They no longer feel that they have to automatically define themselves as "different from others," as outside the group. They are able to see the ways in which their emotionality might cloud their better judgment and to use that insight to establish equilibrium.


Social/Self-pres

This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.

The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four's sense of being "different from" or "other than." The Four's need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct's drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.

When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.

Social/Sexual

This is overall the "lightest" type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype’s energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in. They are often quite creative, talented people who have many interests, but they frequently lack the energy to actually accomplish what they would like. They can drift and withdraw very easily. When healthy and with the right support from friends (and perhaps a little push) they tap into their instinctual energy. When they do this, they begin to see how much they can accomplish. A positive connection to others helps them stay focused.

Sexual/Self-pres

This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.



Sexual/Social

This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.

I feel as though they all sound like me, just at different points in time.

 

[Southern Kross]

^Those are better desciptions than most. I like these ones as well because they are even more specific:

Romantics have a strong need to express themselves and to be seen as original.

Self-Preservation Fours: "Dauntless"

• I crave intensity and stimulation in order to feel alive and avoid the dullness and meaningless of a mundane existence.
• I am attracted to being close to birth, death, catastrophe, and serious illness.
• I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships.
• I can be determined and persevering in pulling myself and others through crises.
• I rebel strenuously when people attack my ideals, tell me what to do, or try to change me. I may hurl sarcastic remarks or fly into a rage.
• I focus intently on my creative work or causes.
• I can see myself excluding everything else that is going on around me and ignoring the necessities of day-to-day survival while I pursue my goal.
• I like to point out angles that others have not thought of.
• I take great offense when people assume they know what I think and how I feel.

Relational Fours: "Competition and Envy"

• I envy people who seem happier, more fulfilled, or more intersting than I am, particularly those whose assets are similar to mine.
• When having problems in a relationship, I am more likely to become depressed than angry.
• I want my partner to experience our relationship as unique and intense.
• I'm attracted to what is distant and unattainable.
• I long, or have longed, for a soul mate or Prince or Princess Charming to come along and rescue me from an ordinary life.
• I frequently get my partner to leave, then try to win him or her back. This push and pull creates drama and pain, keeps renewing the distance I want, and gives me the feeling that I am in control.
• Getting close frightens me because my loved one might discover that I don't measure up to the ideal.
• I sometimes feel I'm not special enough to be truly loved.

Social Fours: "Shame"
Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

• I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
• I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
• I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
• I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
• I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
• I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
• Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
• I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.

A lot of descriptions can be too literal and broad, and I had some trouble trying to figure out mine too because of this. The above social description cleared things up for me - hopefully it will help you too.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

they all still hit home in a lot of respects, and in others don't.

Self-Preservation Fours: "Dauntless"

* I crave intensity and stimulation in order to feel alive and avoid the dullness and meaningless of a mundane existence.
* I am attracted to being close to birth, death, catastrophe, and serious illness.
* I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships.
* I can be determined and persevering in pulling myself and others through crises.
* I rebel strenuously when people attack my ideals, tell me what to do, or try to change me. I may hurl sarcastic remarks or fly into a rage.
* I focus intently on my creative work or causes.
* I can see myself excluding everything else that is going on around me and ignoring the necessities of day-to-day survival while I pursue my goal.
* I like to point out angles that others have not thought of.
* I take great offense when people assume they know what I think and how I feel.

Relational Fours: "Competition and Envy"

* I envy people who seem happier, more fulfilled, or more intersting than I am, particularly those whose assets are similar to mine.
* When having problems in a relationship, I am more likely to become depressed than angry.
* I want my partner to experience our relationship as unique and intense.
* I'm attracted to what is distant and unattainable.
* I long, or have longed, for a soul mate or Prince or Princess Charming to come along and rescue me from an ordinary life.
* I frequently get my partner to leave, then try to win him or her back. This push and pull creates drama and pain, keeps renewing the distance I want, and gives me the feeling that I am in control.
* Getting close frightens me because my loved one might discover that I don't measure up to the ideal.
* I sometimes feel I'm not special enough to be truly loved.

Social Fours: "Shame"
Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

* I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
* I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
* I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
* I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
* I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
* I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
* Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
* I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.

I bolded the things that were very fitting, underlined the things that I've felt at some point in time, but wasn't persistant, and italicized the remarks I was unsure about.

edit: apparently italics don't show up on quoted items... so the things i was iffy about or perhaps had a slant different from how i perceived it to be are in red.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

I'm not 100% about my instinctual variant either... I have traits of all three variants of 4s, but I chose self-preserving because I'm a bit more on the intense and wound type... if you interacted with me in person, you could tell I'm withholding a part of myself, kind of reserved, intense, and when it comes to a goal or dream I have, I am very focused on what I want, how I'm going to do it, and I don't like it when something stands in my way.

Lets see the points that apply (in bold):

Self-Preservation Fours: "Dauntless"

* I crave intensity and stimulation in order to feel alive and avoid the dullness and meaningless of a mundane existence. (Especially with music.)
* I am attracted to being close to birth, death, catastrophe, and serious illness. (I may think of these things, and have dreams about these things, but I wouldn't say my thoughts surround these topics all the time.)
* I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships. (I have been in a couple unhealthy relationships, but they didn't become unhealthy by my own personal choice.)
* I can be determined and persevering in pulling myself and others through crises. (Very determined.)
* I rebel strenuously when people attack my ideals, tell me what to do, or try to change me. I may hurl sarcastic remarks or fly into a rage. (I've learned to have better self-control over this, but yes, this sounds familiar.)
* I focus intently on my creative work or causes.( Yes.)
* I can see myself excluding everything else that is going on around me and ignoring the necessities of day-to-day survival while I pursue my goal. (To an extent I can end up losing track of things that need to get done because I get so zoned in with the tasks I'm doing.)
* I like to point out angles that others have not thought of. (Angles, or even things in general others haven't thought of.)
* I take great offense when people assume they know what I think and how I feel.(depends on what it is... some things I get more bent out of shape than others. But sometimes I like it when people sympathize with how I'm feeling.)

Relational Fours: "Competition and Envy"

* I envy people who seem happier, more fulfilled, or more interesting than I am, particularly those whose assets are similar to mine. not quite, I may feel moderately envious, but I don't let this eat at me.
* When having problems in a relationship, I am more likely to become depressed than angry. I get both angry and depressed.
* I want my partner to experience our relationship as unique and intense. Unique yes... but intensity takes time.
* I'm attracted to what is distant and unattainable. (yeah, it's a bit of an affliction of mine. )
* I long, or have longed, for a soul mate or Prince or Princess Charming to come along and rescue me from an ordinary life. (yep... all of my life I've yearned for this.)
* I frequently get my partner to leave, then try to win him or her back. This push and pull creates drama and pain, keeps renewing the distance I want, and gives me the feeling that I am in control. (What's the point in doing this if I want to settle down with the right person? Pretty ineffective.)
* Getting close frightens me because my loved one might discover that I don't measure up to the ideal. (Closeness tends to frighten me because I'm unsure if the guy is going to live up to what I want, or if I'd go through the same dissatisfaction I encountered in previous relationships. )
* I sometimes feel I'm not special enough to be truly loved. (If I feel really really down, then I'd feel this way, but most times, I put my chin up that there's someone out there for me.)

Social Fours: "Shame"
Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

* I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship. (Very much so.)
* I die over each mistake or faux pas I make. (I don't feel shame, just more like "here I go again, making a mistake.")
* I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork. (I used to feel this way, but now, not so much.)
* I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory? ( Oi vey. Tell me about it.)
* I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me. (Yep.)
* I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending. (Not quite. I don't expect others to invite me to everything.)
* Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.( Maybe the statement above is me deflecting envy for all I know.)
* I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.( to an extent, yes.)

Amount of Statements Bolded for Each Category:
5- sp
2- sx
4- so

Therefore: sp/so

IndyAnnaJoan, you could try this method too, count up the amount of statements in each category apply to you, and see which one is the highest number. The one that's the greatest number is your instinctual variant. Hope this helps.

(Edit: Apparently you did that already as I was posting this!)

 

[Sunny Ghost]

SP: 5/9 i was positive about. 3/4 i felt at some point in time. the remark in red i had a hard time deciphering if it was me or not.

SX: 5/9 i was positive about. of the remaining, i have felt as though the grass is greener on the other side, desired things out of reach. i couldn't decipher if i become more depressed or angry. it's been a while since i've been involved... and also the push/pull. i don't think it was ever conscious... but who's never had hot makeup sex?

SO: 4/8 i was positive about. of the remaining, i used to day dream about one up-ing others, but don't believe i do anymore. also, i'd say i used to beat myself up a lot over my wrong doings in life, and who hasn't deflected envy? especially if they are a 4? isn't this part of the whole, i'm an elite and special thing? however, i've never tried to make myself fit in by being an authority on a topic or making bold statements with my clothing. i actually do the opposite and try hard to not make a statement... which actually may be a statement in itself...


I feel like I'm pretty even across the board.

 

[Southern Kross]

they all still hit home in a lot of respects, and in others don't.

I bolded the things that were very fitting, underlined the things that I've felt at some point in time, but wasn't persistant, and italicized the remarks I was unsure about.

edit: apparently italics don't show up on quoted items... so the things i was iffy about or perhaps had a slant different from how i perceived it to be are in red.

When I first read this list, I related to different points across all 3 and don't totally relate to 1-2 on the social list. I think the main thing to focus on the points that really hit home and jump out at you; the things you immediately and strongly relate to without thinking too much about it. For me several of the social ones felt like some points were not just true in general but actual hit a nerve and made me go "OMG I sooo do that!".

Some other things that might help to narrow it down:
- It seems that e4 so doms are keenly aware of their social inadequency and differences from others, and social acceptance, or the lack thereof, is often a major focus. They often want to test the waters before revealing something (such as their taste in music) that may cause potential embarrassment or draw judgement from others
- E4 sp doms are less ashamed and apologetic about their social ineptitude and/or differences and are more likely to have a, "This is me - get used to it" attitude, even if there are underlying self-esteem issues.
- E4 sps aren't as good at adapting to different sorts of social situations and will hang back more, whereas e4 so-doms make more of an effort to socialize even if they are uncomfortable about it. I also find so-dom introverts are more talkative (and can seem extrovert-like at times) than sp-dom introverts.
- Also one thing I heard about e4 sp-doms is that they sometimes intentionally accentuate their differences (eg. saying overly weird things or proudly wearing unusual clothing) as a defense mechanism

Sorry, I don't know much about e4 sx doms...

 

[Sunny Ghost]

that was helpful.

SO seems more reasonable for me then, than SP. now i just need to find out a clear way to understand SX.

 

[Onceajoan]

Differentiating between SX as a subtype and Type 4 is difficult since there are many similarities. Push pull relationships are not only specific to SXs, they are also specific to 4s interpersonal experiences. SXs and Fours both like intense romantic encounters. They live for INTENSE EXPERIENCES - The more intense the better. Like 4s, sexual types are intimacy junkies - it relates to intensity and the desire to merge with the other. Fours also have a tendency towards depression - so it really doesn't help to describe SX Fours as having propensity for depression when relationships go sour... uh...yeah...that's what any Four would do - -and come to think of it...any person would do. BUT...not to the same depths as other Enneagram types. The depression runs deep. There are other SX and Four parallels.

The point is: It's really difficult to identify a Four as a Sexual Type - the descriptions overlap quite a bit. The only way to really figure it out would to be to identify the Four in question as MORE FOUR (that is, the Four is not particularily motivated towards self preservation or social activities). By default you would get SX Four.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

asides from just figuring out sx, so, and sp separately, what about a type 4 with the various stackings? anyone have insight?

 

[Sunny Ghost]

Some other things that might help to narrow it down:
- It seems that e4 so doms are keenly aware of their social inadequency and differences from others, and social acceptance, or the lack thereof, is often a major focus. They often want to test the waters before revealing something (such as their taste in music) that may cause potential embarrassment or draw judgement from others

thinking about these things more, i'd say feeling inadequate used to pervade my mind... however it's not something i feel very much of anymore. i've learned to be proud of who i am, i suppose. but even in the past, this wasn't a feeling that was always present. but it came and went a lot during different periods of time.

- E4 sp doms are less ashamed and apologetic about their social ineptitude and/or differences and are more likely to have a, "This is me - get used to it" attitude, even if there are underlying self-esteem issues.

i can't say that i'm unapologetic... i've never really enjoyed standing out... i prefer to be more understated or unassuming. but do still feel the need to be seen as different, at the same time. just not outstandingly so.

- E4 sps aren't as good at adapting to different sorts of social situations and will hang back more, whereas e4 so-doms make more of an effort to socialize even if they are uncomfortable about it. I also find so-dom introverts are more talkative (and can seem extrovert-like at times) than sp-dom introverts.

i go back and forth between these two phases. currently, i make more of an effort. but this is actually new for even myself. most of my life i hung back. but these days i can be quite talkative and extroverted like.

- Also one thing I heard about e4 sp-doms is that they sometimes intentionally accentuate their differences (eg. saying overly weird things or proudly wearing unusual clothing) as a defense mechanism

can't say i relate to this. but i've always had a strange attitude towards clothing, style and the concept of how these things are just masks or personas.
i have a hard time explaining what i mean by this... i suppose i hate looking cliche... but i'm also aggravated by people who are overtly loud with their clothing. i dislike labels and trends, and prefer to wear something truly befitting to who i am. and i prefer to think of who i am as not fake, and not out for attention, and not trying to conform or rebel or attempting to fit some subculture, either. so, i think this same understated or unassuming attitude is transferred to my clothing preferences as well.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Some other things that might help to narrow it down:
- It seems that e4 so doms are keenly aware of their social inadequency and differences from others, and social acceptance, or the lack thereof, is often a major focus. They often want to test the waters before revealing something (such as their taste in music) that may cause potential embarrassment or draw judgement from others
- E4 sp doms are less ashamed and apologetic about their social ineptitude and/or differences and are more likely to have a, "This is me - get used to it" attitude, even if there are underlying self-esteem issues.
- E4 sps aren't as good at adapting to different sorts of social situations and will hang back more, whereas e4 so-doms make more of an effort to socialize even if they are uncomfortable about it. I also find so-dom introverts are more talkative (and can seem extrovert-like at times) than sp-dom introverts.
- Also one thing I heard about e4 sp-doms is that they sometimes intentionally accentuate their differences (eg. saying overly weird things or proudly wearing unusual clothing) as a defense mechanism

First point about E4 so variants... I can relate to this one. I tend to keep certain personal interests away from view, unless someone shows interest in it.

First point about E4 sp variants... yeah, I can be a bit like that. Second point about sp's and so's and social settings... I do hold back a bit, until I see a positive sign from others that they actually want to interact with me, or if there's someone in front of me on the cash register line, I don't mind interacting with them, as long as I get the "green light" to interact with them. When I was in high school, even though I felt uncomfortable in social situations, I kind of pushed myself to interact with others. Same thing in college.

Wearing strange clothing... I think most of my clothing is more on the classic side than strange, pretty subdued. But there are times where I feel the urge to wear an unusual shade of nail polish... for example light blue.

Perhaps this could be a sign of being more so-dom than sp-dom.

 

[Southern Kross]

thinking about these things more, i'd say feeling inadequate used to pervade my mind... however it's not something i feel very much of anymore. i've learned to be proud of who i am, i suppose. but even in the past, this wasn't a feeling that was always present. but it came and went a lot during different periods of time.

i can't say that i'm unapologetic... i've never really enjoyed standing out... i prefer to be more understated or unassuming. but do still feel the need to be seen as different, at the same time. just not outstandingly so.

i go back and forth between these two phases. currently, i make more of an effort. but this is actually new for even myself. most of my life i hung back. but these days i can be quite talkative and extroverted like.

can't say i relate to this. but i've always had a strange attitude towards clothing, style and the concept of how these things are just masks or personas.
i have a hard time explaining what i mean by this... i suppose i hate looking cliche... but i'm also aggravated by people who are overtly loud with their clothing. i dislike labels and trends, and prefer to wear something truly befitting to who i am. and i prefer to think of who i am as not fake, and not out for attention, and not trying to conform or rebel or attempting to fit some subculture, either. so, i think this same understated or unassuming attitude is transferred to my clothing preferences as well.

You do sound more so-dom than sp then.

Some of the points from my experience as social type: I also think highly of myself (not that I am arrogant) and am proud of various aspects of myself. However, that pride and self-esteem is often so fragile when under the scrutiny of others. I fret about how I present myself to others because I fear judgement from them. For example: I'm a big indie rock and folk music lover but only really listen to this music alone. I know very well that they are very popular and acclaimed bands and I am a proud fan but when it comes to playing to others I am embarrassed and fear someone may tell me its weird and stupid (which they do). It doesn't change how I feel about it but it does alter the way I present myself to others. This goes for clothing too: I'm not a big fashionista and prefer to wear clothing that interests me (ie. I do think for myself) but also lets me blend into the crowd. In everything, I am constantly trying to balance adhering to what I like and care about, with fitting in with what is socially accepted. For this reason I will conceal or edit aspects of myself to suit the social setting.

First point about E4 sp variants... yeah, I can be a bit like that. Second point about sp's and so's and social settings... I do hold back a bit, until I see a positive sign from others that they actually want to interact with me, or if there's someone in front of me on the cash register line, I don't mind interacting with them, as long as I get the "green light" to interact with them. When I was in high school, even though I felt uncomfortable in social situations, I kind of pushed myself to interact with others. Same thing in college.

I'm a 4w5 so/sp so I'm a little bipolar with socializing. I used to be extremely shy as a child and teenager but I tried really hard to change it. Really all I am is better at concealing the fact that I used to be. I still really avoid most social situations a great deal but when I am in them I try to make an effort and will often seem outgoing despite often feeling rather uncomfortable. I think as a so-dom I feel more compelled to chit-chat for the sake of others compared with sps. I think it must be confusing for others when looking at it from their perspective: often I'm talkative, sociable, part of the group, and seemingly enjoying myself; then suddenly I become quiet and distant or just disappear and withdraw in a hermit-like fashion. I'm really up and down and all over the place. I don't even entirely know where the talkativeness comes from; sometimes its to cover up nerves, sometimes its because I find a subject I feel comfortable and confident in talking about so I seize the opportunity and sometimes I just trying my best to best to interact and fit in. Its such a push/pull feeling for me - I want to be around others but want to escape them at the same time.

 

[sleuthiness]

Someone use the word "truly" again.

That would be truly befitting for this thread.

Post pictures of your clothes.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Differentiating between SX as a subtype and Type 4 is difficult since there are many similarities. Push pull relationships are not only specific to SXs, they are also specific to 4s interpersonal experiences. SXs and Fours both like intense romantic encounters. They live for INTENSE EXPERIENCES - The more intense the better. Like 4s, sexual types are intimacy junkies - it relates to intensity and the desire to merge with the other. Fours also have a tendency towards depression - so it really doesn't help to describe SX Fours as having propensity for depression when relationships go sour... uh...yeah...that's what any Four would do - -and come to think of it...any person would do. BUT...not to the same depths as other Enneagram types. The depression runs deep. There are other SX and Four parallels.

The point is: It's really difficult to identify a Four as a Sexual Type - the descriptions overlap quite a bit. The only way to really figure it out would to be to identify the Four in question as MORE FOUR (that is, the Four is not particularily motivated towards self preservation or social activities). By default you would get SX Four.

I definitely don't relate to this aspect of 4s, which probably just says I am not sx-dom (which I know). I don't know if it's my 5 wing or being sp-dom, but I avoid intensity as described (I feel quite intense enough internally, but it's also damped down when interacting with others). I crave intimacy in my ideal daydream land, but I have such a morbid fear of rejection after revealing my soft underbelly that I often run if I approach anything resembling intense emotional experiences with other people. It makes me feel overwhelmed & way too vulnerable. Overt displays of emotion are so uncomfortable for me, in myself and others.

I've also read that it's common for 4s to be drawn to "unavailable" people so they can remain a fantasy in the 4's head instead of the 4 having to deal with the reality of a relationship, which they fear for many reasons.

There is a push-pull aspect that stems from being 4w5 in itself. There is the 4 craving for intensity and intimacy and the 5 tendency to get overwhelmed easily & need a lot of space. 4s, like 5s, also value their autonomy greatly, so any relationship which threatens that may get the push. I feel like even the sp/sx combo gives a push-pull effect. It's like I literally want to preserve myself, not subject myself to the risk of hurt, but at the same time you have to take a risk for any kind of connection to another person. My nature is to duck my head in my shell in response to anything that could be filed under "intense".

Well, the exception would be hearing out other people about their feelings, even if rather intense. I can play therapist, but I remain rather detached. It doesn't affect my own state.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

You do sound more so-dom than sp then.

Some of the points from my experience as social type: I also think highly of myself (not that I am arrogant) and am proud of various aspects of myself. However, that pride and self-esteem is often so fragile when under the scrutiny of others. I fret about how I present myself to others because I fear judgement from them. For example: I'm a big indie rock and folk music lover but only really listen to this music alone. I know very well that they are very popular and acclaimed bands and I am a proud fan but when it comes to playing to others I am embarrassed and fear someone may tell me its weird and stupid (which they do). It doesn't change how I feel about it but it does alter the way I present myself to others. This goes for clothing too: I'm not a big fashionista and prefer to wear clothing that interests me (ie. I do think for myself) but also lets me blend into the crowd. In everything, I am constantly trying to balance adhering to what I like and care about, with fitting in with what is socially accepted. For this reason I will conceal or edit aspects of myself to suit the social setting.

I'm a 4w5 so/sp so I'm a little bipolar with socializing. I used to be extremely shy as a child and teenager but I tried really hard to change it. Really all I am is better at concealing the fact that I used to be. I still really avoid most social situations a great deal but when I am in them I try to make an effort and will often seem outgoing despite often feeling rather uncomfortable. I think as a so-dom I feel more compelled to chit-chat for the sake of others compared with sps. I think it must be confusing for others when looking at it from their perspective: often I'm talkative, sociable, part of the group, and seemingly enjoying myself; then suddenly I become quiet and distant or just disappear and withdraw in a hermit-like fashion. I'm really up and down and all over the place. I don't even entirely know where the talkativeness comes from; sometimes its to cover up nerves, sometimes its because I find a subject I feel comfortable and confident in talking about so I seize the opportunity and sometimes I just trying my best to best to interact and fit in. Its such a push/pull feeling for me - I want to be around others but want to escape them at the same time.

this sounds very much like me. maybe i am so/sp?

Someone use the word "truly" again.

That would be truly befitting for this thread.

?

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Some of the points from my experience as social type: I also think highly of myself (not that I am arrogant) and am proud of various aspects of myself. However, that pride and self-esteem is often so fragile when under the scrutiny of others. I fret about how I present myself to others because I fear judgement from them. For example: I'm a big indie rock and folk music lover but only really listen to this music alone. I know very well that they are very popular and acclaimed bands and I am a proud fan but when it comes to playing to others I am embarrassed and fear someone may tell me its weird and stupid (which they do). It doesn't change how I feel about it but it does alter the way I present myself to others. This goes for clothing too: I'm not a big fashionista and prefer to wear clothing that interests me (ie. I do think for myself) but also lets me blend into the crowd. In everything, I am constantly trying to balance adhering to what I like and care about, with fitting in with what is socially accepted. For this reason I will conceal or edit aspects of myself to suit the social setting.

I'm a 4w5 so/sp so I'm a little bipolar with socializing. I used to be extremely shy as a child and teenager but I tried really hard to change it. Really all I am is better at concealing the fact that I used to be. I still really avoid most social situations a great deal but when I am in them I try to make an effort and will often seem outgoing despite often feeling rather uncomfortable. I think as a so-dom I feel more compelled to chit-chat for the sake of others compared with sps. I think it must be confusing for others when looking at it from their perspective: often I'm talkative, sociable, part of the group, and seemingly enjoying myself; then suddenly I become quiet and distant or just disappear and withdraw in a hermit-like fashion. I'm really up and down and all over the place. I don't even entirely know where the talkativeness comes from; sometimes its to cover up nerves, sometimes its because I find a subject I feel comfortable and confident in talking about so I seize the opportunity and sometimes I just trying my best to best to interact and fit in. Its such a push/pull feeling for me - I want to be around others but want to escape them at the same time.

Yeah, when I was a kid, I tended to speak my mind, and sometimes what I said came across as being a bit odd, got ridiculed for it, and then I'd feel embarrassed about it. Nowadays in conversations, I am so quiet, lucky enough if you get me to say something, and when I feel I have something of relevance to add to the conversation, I speak up. Otherwise, I hang in the background. Being friendly with others isn't a problem though. Just I'm usually the "quiet one" in the group. I do love leading projects and reporting to the class what the group has done, it's a huge confidence booster. Not sure which instinctual variant that means... perhaps showing individualism through leadership. I think having a strong 5 wing can be a reason behind this, because 5's integration point is towards 8 traits... and type 4's integration point is towards 1 traits, so basically showing who's boss and get the slackers in line. Might be a self-preserving/social reaction. I don't necessarily search to escape people per se, but if I am in a situation where I feel overwhelmed, incompetent, or I'm really screwing up, it can be embarrassing as anything, I feel like everyone is staring at me, and I just want to disappear.

I definitely don't relate to this aspect of 4s, which probably just says I am not sx-dom (which I know). I don't know if it's my 5 wing or being sp-dom, but I avoid intensity as described (I feel quite intense enough internally, but it's also damped down when interacting with others). I crave intimacy in my ideal daydream land, but I have such a morbid fear of rejection after revealing my soft underbelly that I often run if I approach anything resembling intense emotional experiences with other people. It makes me feel overwhelmed & way too vulnerable. Overt displays of emotion are so uncomfortable for me, in myself and others.

I've also read that it's common for 4s to be drawn to "unavailable" people so they can remain a fantasy in the 4's head instead of the 4 having to deal with the reality of a relationship, which they fear for many reasons.

There is a push-pull aspect that stems from being 4w5 in itself. There is the 4 craving for intensity and intimacy and the 5 tendency to get overwhelmed easily & need a lot of space. 4s, like 5s, also value their autonomy greatly, so any relationship which threatens that may get the push. I feel like even the sp/sx combo gives a push-pull effect. It's like I literally want to preserve myself, not subject myself to the risk of hurt, but at the same time you have to take a risk for any kind of connection to another person. My nature is to duck my head in my shell in response to anything that could be filed under "intense".

Well, the exception would be hearing out other people about their feelings, even if rather intense. I can play therapist, but I remain rather detached. It doesn't affect my own state.

Oh dear, this sounds very familiar about relationships. I'm not exactly comfortable revealing my emotions to another person for fear of being vulnerable, and I'm not a huge fan of overt displays of emotion either. And yes, I have been drawn to unavailable guys too, or sometimes I end up making myself harder to reach for fear of rejection. Seems self-defeating though.

I prefer to remain detached from other people's problems too, but I sympathize with how they are feeling.

I can see the difference between sp, so, and sx much clearer.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

I definitely don't relate to this aspect of 4s, which probably just says I am not sx-dom (which I know). I don't know if it's my 5 wing or being sp-dom, but I avoid intensity as described (I feel quite intense enough internally, but it's also damped down when interacting with others). I crave intimacy in my ideal daydream land, but I have such a morbid fear of rejection after revealing my soft underbelly that I often run if I approach anything resembling intense emotional experiences with other people. It makes me feel overwhelmed & way too vulnerable. Overt displays of emotion are so uncomfortable for me, in myself and others.

I've also read that it's common for 4s to be drawn to "unavailable" people so they can remain a fantasy in the 4's head instead of the 4 having to deal with the reality of a relationship, which they fear for many reasons.

There is a push-pull aspect that stems from being 4w5 in itself. There is the 4 craving for intensity and intimacy and the 5 tendency to get overwhelmed easily & need a lot of space. 4s, like 5s, also value their autonomy greatly, so any relationship which threatens that may get the push. I feel like even the sp/sx combo gives a push-pull effect. It's like I literally want to preserve myself, not subject myself to the risk of hurt, but at the same time you have to take a risk for any kind of connection to another person. My nature is to duck my head in my shell in response to anything that could be filed under "intense".

Well, the exception would be hearing out other people about their feelings, even if rather intense. I can play therapist, but I remain rather detached. It doesn't affect my own state.

hmm... this sounds like me as well. i'm thinking i may be some combination of sp/so or so/sp and not an sx after all.