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  1. #1
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Default Questions on figuring out my Instinctual Variants

    So, it's recently occurred to me that I may be wrong about my instinctual variant.

    I had considered myself an sx/sp... debated between that and sp/sx. However, now after having read a bit more on sp/so... I could see that as fitting as well.

    The reason I decided I was an sx/sp was because at the time I became familiar with enneagram and variants I was in a relationship of about 4 years. I felt deeply connected and in tune with this person. I considered him a soul mate. I wanted nothing but to align my life with his. However, at the same time, I felt torn for my independence. I feel as though, my life is my life... only I can live it and I want to experience it on my own two feet and not as a duo. But then, I'm torn in wanting romance and a lover for life and someone to deeply connect with and share experiences with. So... sx/sp seemed quite fitting. :shrug:

    Other reasons for considering sx is because I always had a tendency towards wanting rich and intense experiences. So much so, I was a bit of a disaster... :blush: But I wanted to seek connections in aspects of romance, friendship, even music, movies, books... But this could be me being a enneagram 4?

    I considered SP as, though I felt a strong desire to connect... it wasn't always present. I was often a loner as well. I had a strong need to take care of myself. I crave and pride myself on my independence. I was an avid runner, ran cross country, went on whist-full walks by my lonesome, would go off on day hikes by my lonesome. I had a strong need to exercise daily, and not necessarily to please, but just for my self. So, SP/SO was a consideration as well. I'd even try to find a strong connection with my self, finding wholeness in myself as opposed to with someone else. Or intense experiences with art, music, books, not necessarily seeking another person. :headphne:

    Now, I'm considering SO for the first time. Reason being... I am highly concerned with my image. I hate this about myself. But I do indeed care what people think of me, what my neighbors think of me, and what my community thinks of me. However, I don't know if this is linked to how my mother raised me or because I've always detested the feeling of standing out. I've always been more of a wallflower, and so being more seemingly "normal" would keep me from standing out or keep me from being a topic of discussion. I had always considered myself to be a bit weird (perhaps also an aspect of being a 4).... but this could also just be Fi/Ni looping paranoia I had developed, nor do I want to stand out as being seen as a useless hippie or bum or druggy (maybe drug paranoia-but I'm clean now)... so I tossed a lot of that to the side, and wanted to be seen as unassuming.

    Anyways... anyone have any idea how I can decipher? sx/sp? sp/sx? sp/so?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  2. #2
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I would also like to throw in some additional information or questions:

    How fixed are our instinctual variant stackings? Do we change time to time?

    Can a person be evenly distributed amongst all three? If not, why?

    How much can our enneagram and stackings be affected by severe negative emotional health? A lot of the times, I feel as though I was a different person before, during and then after and have a hard time deciphering these things.

    Also, how much can drug abuse affect the enneagram and stackings? My drug usage and depression nearly go in together hand in hand and there's a lot of blurring of the edges with the two. But, it's the same as with the previous question... I felt like a different person before, during and after.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  3. #3
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I don't know what the theory is on it, but I feel like my instinctual variant stackings have changed over time.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I have a difficult time seeing them as fixed... but then again, I don't know much about the subject.

    Here's what I found for Type 4's:
    The Instinctual Stackings of Enneatype Four


    Self-pres/Social

    This subtype is the least volatile and fiery of the type Four stackings. They can resemble type One in terms of their efficiency and practicality. Although their focus will be more on the emotional aesthetic, these Fours do have a considerable practical side. Less flashy than some of the subtypes of Four, they nevertheless have a quiet charm and developed sense of style. They are likely to value their possessions, to perhaps collect items of personal emotional significance. They may, for instance, have shelves and shelves of books and have a place for each book. This subtype can also resemble type Six in terms of having a great deal of anxiety. This anxiety often revolves around self-pres concerns such as those surrounding health issues and mortality. Their strong self-pres instinct also lends a degree of independence to this subtype. As the sexual instinct is least pronounced, this subtype of Four is prone to romanticize intimacy without actually pursuing real relationships. When healthy, these Fours can be very productive; when less healthy they might suffer from boughts of melancholy or self pity. The strong self-pres instinct however often helps these individuals to recognize how their state of mind is impacting their health and well being. This enables them to become action oriented.


    Self/Sexual

    This subtype also cares very much about their surroundings and their possessions. They feel as if these things help to express who they are. There is more of a passionate sense about them as compared to the self/soc. They have more of a sensual relationship with their environment. These Fours are much more tortured by their difficulty with respect to maintaining close relationships. The self-preservational instinct tends to be in conflict with the sexual instinct, causing this subtype to habitually analyze their relationships to the point where they find it difficult to be present to them. When unhealthy, these Fours can become very disdainful of the social environment. They also start to envy the ease with which others seem to form relationships and maintain friendships. When Fours of this subtype are healthy, they find that they can form relationships without feeling as though they are sacrificing authenticity. They no longer feel that they have to automatically define themselves as "different from others," as outside the group. They are able to see the ways in which their emotionality might cloud their better judgment and to use that insight to establish equilibrium.


    Social/Self-pres

    This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.

    The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four's sense of being "different from" or "other than." The Four's need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct's drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.

    When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.

    Social/Sexual

    This is overall the "lightest" type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype’s energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in. They are often quite creative, talented people who have many interests, but they frequently lack the energy to actually accomplish what they would like. They can drift and withdraw very easily. When healthy and with the right support from friends (and perhaps a little push) they tap into their instinctual energy. When they do this, they begin to see how much they can accomplish. A positive connection to others helps them stay focused.

    Sexual/Self-pres

    This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

    When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.



    Sexual/Social

    This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.
    I feel as though they all sound like me, just at different points in time.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #5
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    ^Those are better desciptions than most. I like these ones as well because they are even more specific:

    Romantics have a strong need to express themselves and to be seen as original.

    Self-Preservation Fours: "Dauntless"

    • I crave intensity and stimulation in order to feel alive and avoid the dullness and meaningless of a mundane existence.
    • I am attracted to being close to birth, death, catastrophe, and serious illness.
    • I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships.
    • I can be determined and persevering in pulling myself and others through crises.
    • I rebel strenuously when people attack my ideals, tell me what to do, or try to change me. I may hurl sarcastic remarks or fly into a rage.
    • I focus intently on my creative work or causes.
    • I can see myself excluding everything else that is going on around me and ignoring the necessities of day-to-day survival while I pursue my goal.
    • I like to point out angles that others have not thought of.
    • I take great offense when people assume they know what I think and how I feel.

    Relational Fours: "Competition and Envy"
    • I envy people who seem happier, more fulfilled, or more intersting than I am, particularly those whose assets are similar to mine.
    • When having problems in a relationship, I am more likely to become depressed than angry.
    • I want my partner to experience our relationship as unique and intense.
    • I'm attracted to what is distant and unattainable.
    • I long, or have longed, for a soul mate or Prince or Princess Charming to come along and rescue me from an ordinary life.
    • I frequently get my partner to leave, then try to win him or her back. This push and pull creates drama and pain, keeps renewing the distance I want, and gives me the feeling that I am in control.
    • Getting close frightens me because my loved one might discover that I don't measure up to the ideal.
    • I sometimes feel I'm not special enough to be truly loved.

    Social Fours: "Shame"
    Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

    • I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
    • I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
    • I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
    • I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
    • I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
    • I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
    • Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
    • I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.
    A lot of descriptions can be too literal and broad, and I had some trouble trying to figure out mine too because of this. The above social description cleared things up for me - hopefully it will help you too.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #6
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    they all still hit home in a lot of respects, and in others don't.

    Self-Preservation Fours: "Dauntless"

    * I crave intensity and stimulation in order to feel alive and avoid the dullness and meaningless of a mundane existence.
    * I am attracted to being close to birth, death, catastrophe, and serious illness.

    * I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships.
    * I can be determined and persevering in pulling myself and others through crises.
    * I rebel strenuously when people attack my ideals, tell me what to do, or try to change me. I may hurl sarcastic remarks or fly into a rage.
    * I focus intently on my creative work or causes.
    * I can see myself excluding everything else that is going on around me and ignoring the necessities of day-to-day survival while I pursue my goal.
    * I like to point out angles that others have not thought of.
    * I take great offense when people assume they know what I think and how I feel.

    Relational Fours: "Competition and Envy"

    * I envy people who seem happier, more fulfilled, or more intersting than I am, particularly those whose assets are similar to mine.
    * When having problems in a relationship, I am more likely to become depressed than angry.
    * I want my partner to experience our relationship as unique and intense.
    * I'm attracted to what is distant and unattainable.
    * I long, or have longed, for a soul mate or Prince or Princess Charming to come along and rescue me from an ordinary life.
    * I frequently get my partner to leave, then try to win him or her back. This push and pull creates drama and pain, keeps renewing the distance I want, and gives me the feeling that I am in control.
    * Getting close frightens me because my loved one might discover that I don't measure up to the ideal.
    * I sometimes feel I'm not special enough to be truly loved.


    Social Fours: "Shame"
    Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

    * I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
    * I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
    * I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
    * I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
    * I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
    * I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
    * Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
    * I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.
    I bolded the things that were very fitting, underlined the things that I've felt at some point in time, but wasn't persistant, and italicized the remarks I was unsure about.

    edit: apparently italics don't show up on quoted items... so the things i was iffy about or perhaps had a slant different from how i perceived it to be are in red.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  7. #7
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    I'm not 100% about my instinctual variant either... I have traits of all three variants of 4s, but I chose self-preserving because I'm a bit more on the intense and wound type... if you interacted with me in person, you could tell I'm withholding a part of myself, kind of reserved, intense, and when it comes to a goal or dream I have, I am very focused on what I want, how I'm going to do it, and I don't like it when something stands in my way.

    Lets see the points that apply (in bold):
    Self-Preservation Fours: "Dauntless"

    * I crave intensity and stimulation in order to feel alive and avoid the dullness and meaningless of a mundane existence. (Especially with music.)
    * I am attracted to being close to birth, death, catastrophe, and serious illness. (I may think of these things, and have dreams about these things, but I wouldn't say my thoughts surround these topics all the time.)
    * I have plunged into dangerous situations, for example, taking physical risks, breaking laws or rules, taking chances with my money, engaging in promiscuity, or entering into unhealthy relationships. (I have been in a couple unhealthy relationships, but they didn't become unhealthy by my own personal choice.)
    * I can be determined and persevering in pulling myself and others through crises. (Very determined.)
    * I rebel strenuously when people attack my ideals, tell me what to do, or try to change me. I may hurl sarcastic remarks or fly into a rage. (I've learned to have better self-control over this, but yes, this sounds familiar.)
    * I focus intently on my creative work or causes.( Yes.)
    * I can see myself excluding everything else that is going on around me and ignoring the necessities of day-to-day survival while I pursue my goal. (To an extent I can end up losing track of things that need to get done because I get so zoned in with the tasks I'm doing.)
    * I like to point out angles that others have not thought of. (Angles, or even things in general others haven't thought of.)
    * I take great offense when people assume they know what I think and how I feel.(depends on what it is... some things I get more bent out of shape than others. But sometimes I like it when people sympathize with how I'm feeling.)

    Relational Fours: "Competition and Envy"

    * I envy people who seem happier, more fulfilled, or more interesting than I am, particularly those whose assets are similar to mine. not quite, I may feel moderately envious, but I don't let this eat at me.
    * When having problems in a relationship, I am more likely to become depressed than angry. I get both angry and depressed.
    * I want my partner to experience our relationship as unique and intense. Unique yes... but intensity takes time.
    * I'm attracted to what is distant and unattainable. (yeah, it's a bit of an affliction of mine. )
    * I long, or have longed, for a soul mate or Prince or Princess Charming to come along and rescue me from an ordinary life. (yep... all of my life I've yearned for this.)
    * I frequently get my partner to leave, then try to win him or her back. This push and pull creates drama and pain, keeps renewing the distance I want, and gives me the feeling that I am in control. (What's the point in doing this if I want to settle down with the right person? Pretty ineffective.)
    * Getting close frightens me because my loved one might discover that I don't measure up to the ideal. (Closeness tends to frighten me because I'm unsure if the guy is going to live up to what I want, or if I'd go through the same dissatisfaction I encountered in previous relationships. )
    * I sometimes feel I'm not special enough to be truly loved. (If I feel really really down, then I'd feel this way, but most times, I put my chin up that there's someone out there for me.)

    Social Fours: "Shame"
    Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

    * I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship. (Very much so.)
    * I die over each mistake or faux pas I make. (I don't feel shame, just more like "here I go again, making a mistake.")
    * I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork. (I used to feel this way, but now, not so much.)
    * I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory? ( Oi vey. Tell me about it.)
    * I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me. (Yep.)
    * I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending. (Not quite. I don't expect others to invite me to everything.)
    * Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.( Maybe the statement above is me deflecting envy for all I know.)
    * I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.( to an extent, yes.)
    Amount of Statements Bolded for Each Category:
    5- sp
    2- sx
    4- so

    Therefore: sp/so

    IndyAnnaJoan, you could try this method too, count up the amount of statements in each category apply to you, and see which one is the highest number. The one that's the greatest number is your instinctual variant. Hope this helps.

    (Edit: Apparently you did that already as I was posting this!)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Johari/Nohari

    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
    ― Friedrich Nietzsche




  8. #8
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    SP: 5/9 i was positive about. 3/4 i felt at some point in time. the remark in red i had a hard time deciphering if it was me or not.

    SX: 5/9 i was positive about. of the remaining, i have felt as though the grass is greener on the other side, desired things out of reach. i couldn't decipher if i become more depressed or angry. it's been a while since i've been involved... and also the push/pull. i don't think it was ever conscious... but who's never had hot makeup sex?

    SO: 4/8 i was positive about. of the remaining, i used to day dream about one up-ing others, but don't believe i do anymore. also, i'd say i used to beat myself up a lot over my wrong doings in life, and who hasn't deflected envy? especially if they are a 4? isn't this part of the whole, i'm an elite and special thing? however, i've never tried to make myself fit in by being an authority on a topic or making bold statements with my clothing. i actually do the opposite and try hard to not make a statement... which actually may be a statement in itself... :confused:


    I feel like I'm pretty even across the board.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  9. #9
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    they all still hit home in a lot of respects, and in others don't.

    I bolded the things that were very fitting, underlined the things that I've felt at some point in time, but wasn't persistant, and italicized the remarks I was unsure about.

    edit: apparently italics don't show up on quoted items... so the things i was iffy about or perhaps had a slant different from how i perceived it to be are in red.
    When I first read this list, I related to different points across all 3 and don't totally relate to 1-2 on the social list. I think the main thing to focus on the points that really hit home and jump out at you; the things you immediately and strongly relate to without thinking too much about it. For me several of the social ones felt like some points were not just true in general but actual hit a nerve and made me go "OMG I sooo do that!".

    Some other things that might help to narrow it down:
    - It seems that e4 so doms are keenly aware of their social inadequency and differences from others, and social acceptance, or the lack thereof, is often a major focus. They often want to test the waters before revealing something (such as their taste in music) that may cause potential embarrassment or draw judgement from others
    - E4 sp doms are less ashamed and apologetic about their social ineptitude and/or differences and are more likely to have a, "This is me - get used to it" attitude, even if there are underlying self-esteem issues.
    - E4 sps aren't as good at adapting to different sorts of social situations and will hang back more, whereas e4 so-doms make more of an effort to socialize even if they are uncomfortable about it. I also find so-dom introverts are more talkative (and can seem extrovert-like at times) than sp-dom introverts.
    - Also one thing I heard about e4 sp-doms is that they sometimes intentionally accentuate their differences (eg. saying overly weird things or proudly wearing unusual clothing) as a defense mechanism

    Sorry, I don't know much about e4 sx doms...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #10
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    that was helpful.

    SO seems more reasonable for me then, than SP. now i just need to find out a clear way to understand SX.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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