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  1. #21
    Senior Member surgery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting. So a sp 5 will seem much more typical of the type in general where a so 5 might seem, on the surface, less obviously 5-like?
    According to "info from the underground," Social Fives are only as "less withdrawn" as to the extend that their complimentary instinct. For example, So/Sp is more withdrawn because he or she is so socially sensitive, but So/Sx has more outward focusing energy, thus making that person appear somewhat less withdrawn.

    Thus, it could be that much of the information written about Fives comes from a certain instinctual perspective. If that's the case, the only thing that is typically Five is only the overuse of "their intellects as the chief means of negotiating life," thus using knowledge in order to protect themselves from being overwhelmed by external reality.

    I guess this is similar to that whole thing about defining Jungian typological functions separate from behaviors.

    Ie, Extraverted Intuition is imagination that is stimulated by the external environment versus Extraverted Intuition sees an endless stream of possibilities in external environment, etc.

  2. #22
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    Maybe these will help with defining SP in a broader sense:

    Typical Mindset

    Sx/Sp:"If I can make (us) have an orderly & pleasing lifestyle, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."
    Sp/Sx: "I can have merging/intensity without having to leave my orderly & pleasing lifestyle." (imagination, safe people and relationships, when the safety of these are challenged they withdraw)

    Sp/So: "If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can make sure of and keep my orderly and pleasing lifestyle." (May try to be just appealing and connected with groups enough for everyone to get out of their hair. )
    So/Sp: "If I can establish an orderly and pleasing lifestyle, I can make sure of and keep improving my position and inclusion in the group/world."

    So/Sx: "If I can get close to people with merging/intensity, I can make sure of and keep improving my position and inclusion in the group/world."
    Sx/So: "If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."

  3. #23
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I wouldn't say it necessarily corrosponds one to one with J but perhaps indicates underlying tendencies that often exhibit as judging traits.
    when it comes down to it, most people are judging in one way or another. especially Fi dominant..a judging function. maybe if i was Se dominant, then it might be a different story..i dunno.

    besides all of this, take trin's link..sp/sx isn't described in terms of their organization. i mean, george harrison and earthy mysteriousness is hardly what i'd equivocate with SJs. maybe jackie-o though.. not even sure about that. and the one small bit about their living spaces is as much about aesthetics and comfort as it is organization.

    that said, depending on the type, it'll express itself differently.

    sp/sx
    These people often have an earthy, mysterious quality to them. They are quietly intense, but to others may seem oblivious to the greater social world around them, instead favoring personal interests. They are slow to commit, but once they do it is with an attitude of life commitment, to the establishment of an impermeable bond. Others can be taken aback by how suddenly and completely this type can lock into them, and by the depth of understanding of the other's condition. They attach to others at an organic, root level, in contrast to the other subvariant's surface formality. Somewhat hesitant to enter new relationships, they instead preserve the select few enduring bonds they carefully form along the way. The sanctuary of home is of paramount concern, and this type takes particular delight in decorating their spaces to reflect their cherished sense of taste and depth. Depth and discrimination characterize this stacking.

    Motivation: to live in a secure, comfortable environment where they can pursue their private interests in depth.

    Familiar Roles: the mate, the mystic, the quiet supporter.

    Examples: George Harrison, Jackie Onassis, Eric Clapton, Emily Dickinson

  4. #24
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    when it comes down to it, most people are judging in one way or another. especially Fi dominant..a judging function. maybe if i was Se dominant, then it might be a different story..i dunno.

    besides all of this, take trin's link..sp/sx isn't described in terms of their organizing. i mean, george harrison and earthy mysteriousness is hardly what i'd equivocate with SJs. maybe jackie-o though.. not even sure about that. and the one small bit about their living spaces is as much about aesthetics and comfort as it is organization.

    that said, depending on the type, it'll express itself differently.
    Yeah, I read those generalised type stacking descriptions and didn't connect to mine at all, in fact I was somewhat offended.

    soc/sp
    This type is often the most comfortable in group settings, but tends to be a bit formal and awkward in one to one relations. This is the natural political type, affiliating themselves with groups or theories which best defend their social and material interests. They may lack warmth and individual identity and this could lead to problems in forming meaningful relationships outside of a shared social interest. The motivation for this type is to attain status within their chosen sphere - the "social climber."



    It makes me sound like a cold, stuckup, selfish bitch which made me kinda disregard the descriptions altogether.

    The examples did not impress either:
    Examples of soc/sp: Hillary Clinton, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ted Nugent
    Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh! Nooooooo! :horor:

  5. #25
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Basically the reason for all this is I read this today and it freaked me out with how (brutally) true it is for me


    Link
    That's interesting! I'm an 4 sx-so. I found the So to be *shamefully* fitting
    OTOH, the relational one was less fitting. It describes partly what I used to be like, I saw. Some of those insecurities have been dealt with over the years though...I dunno enneagram that well so is it natural to overcome or grow out of some of the typical weaknesses of your type? And if so, how do they advise doing so?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #26
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, I read those generalised type stacking descriptions and didn't connect to mine at all, in fact I was somewhat offended. Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh! Nooooooo! :horor:
    lol

    i think sp/sx 6 was described well enough. a lot of their issues with security/comfort are with people..not just their homes per se. the short way of putting it is i'm dependent on people thinking i'm.... great. i can't have fun with assholes and drama. who does? this is kind of normal i think

    6 sp/sx

    Their intimates are very important. Their issues with security are focused on their loved ones; their anxiety is closely tied to the pulse and feedback of the people closest to them. They are less outwardly fearful than the self-pres/social. While mainly phobic, their counterphobic nature shows in their sense of fun. They are drawn to intensity, and are likely to overcome fear in order to engage in adventures.(This is especially true with the Seven wing.)

  7. #27
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    That's interesting! I'm an 4 sx-so. I found the So to be *shamefully* fitting
    OTOH, the relational one was less fitting. It describes partly what I used to be like, I saw. Some of those insecurities have been dealt with over the years though...I dunno enneagram that well so is it natural to overcome or grow out of some of the typical weaknesses of your type? And if so, how do they advise doing so?
    I have wondered this too. I am also uncertain as to whether descriptions are meant to represent an unhealthiest, worse case scenario of any given type or merely a extremely concentrated form of a person's motivations. Knowing this would rather help to understand whether we are all doomed or not.

    OT: My major problem with the enneagram is just how harshly negative it is. It can draw a fault to such an extreme that it seems to overcome all of your positive attributes. Of course facing your faults is very important in the process of self-discovery and development (yes, how very 4 of me ) but I refuse to believe that my faults are more defining of my character than my virtues.

    I do think enneagram provides more internal and revealing insights to motivations than MBTI, and probably its negativity provides a valuable complimentary aspect to the mollycoddling tendencies of MBTI ("you're just so special!")
    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    lol

    i think sp/sx 6 was described well enough. a lot of their issues with security/comfort are with people..not just their homes per se. the short way of putting it is i'm dependent on people thinking i'm.... great. i can't have fun with assholes and drama. who does? this is kind of normal i think
    Its tough to hear this stuff, eh?

    Its OK. Apparently I depend on people thinking I'm great too. We can be pathetic together . And I could teach you my 4w5 so/sp techniques to overcome this dependancy:

    1. develop an arrogant disdain for society and shun its inferior mentality
    2. induldge in multitudes of self-pity
    3. desperately seek success in order to punish the meanies who said nasty things about you in the past ( "Screw you guys! You'll be sorry when I'm somebody!" ).

  8. #28
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    heh. 6's already do all of those in their own way, i think. not always productively. especially if you're an unhealthy counterphobe. i think when i was younger i might have been closer to sx/sp or something...and very misguided, with selfish values. i tried the whole revenge thing (for lack of a better word). it didn't work out well.

    anyways, i don't want to derail too much.. some of the same issues still linger, but i'd rather just chill now, keep myself around cool people, have fun, stand up for what's right in productive ways..

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting. So a sp 5 will seem much more typical of the type in general where a so 5 might seem, on the surface, less obviously 5-like?

    That makes sense on an instinctive level. I have always had 2 other types feel rather familiar to me albeit in a less explicit and direct manner. I suppose I would be a 4-5-1.

    How exactly does your wing factor in on this? Is it seperate?
    Yes, that is my understanding. A 5 soc variant will at least appear less typically "5-like". They are still 5's, and will this share the same motivations of 5's, just manifesting them in different ways.

    From what I have read, enneagram is supposed to be more about motivation, as opposed to MBTI which focuses on functional preferences. In other words, the "why" vs. the "how" of our behavior. Perhaps this sheds some light on the apparent negativity of some of the descriptions. To the extent that our motivations are based largely on fears and insecurities (a flagrant speculation), descriptions of these motivations and how they influence our behavior might indeed tend to be negative.

    As for the wing influence, I would like to understand this better myself. I have read that 5w6, for example, tends more to technical pursuits while 5w4 tends toward the literary and artistic, both taking a similar approach; but this is simplistic and anecdotal at best.

  10. #30

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    INTP 5w4 sx/so here... the descriptions below fit me pretty well, although i'm on the autistic spectrum so that i may appear different perhaps? lol i really don't know, perhaps i just appear as a lofty idealist attracted to radical positions.


    sx/so

    This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other's buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.

    Motivation: to impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
    Familiar roles: provocateur, activist, exhibitionist

    Examples of sx/so: Madonna, John Lennon, Yukio Mishima, Robin Williams, Drew Barrymore, Richard Simmons, Elvis, Bono, George Michael, Sinead O'Connor, Joan of Arc.


    5w4 sx/so "Revolution" contributed by jase

    The most creatively energized and outspoken of Fives, they conceive of outlandish and idealistic alternatives to a reality they find deeply unfulfilling for the most part, and like to exhibit these radical visions, possibly through an art form if not through direct advocacy. Many sx/soc 5w4's are responsible for revolutionizing their creative fields, for better or worse. They aren't always comfortable in the visionary roles they might find themselves in, and may escape to extended periods of withdrawal to regain a sense of independence and security. This kind of retreat can surprise those who have mistaken them for a more conventionally driven, extroverted personality.

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