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Extreme Frugality

EJCC

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What is ERE? - Early Retirement Extreme Wiki

Anyone trying to live like this, or in any other way that practices "extreme frugality", Mustachianism, anti-consumerist self-reliant living, etc? If so, how? Any recommendations? General feedback?

I've been starting to ease into it over the past year or so -- slowly but surely. The resources I've been using:
- Mr. Money Mustache
- "Your Money or Your Life: 9 Steps to Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Achieving Financial Independence" by Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez
 

Evo

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Oh.... so that's what it's called. That thing I've been trying to do :laugh:
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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In some respects, yes. I don't own a car, and use public transportation. I also have savings in addition to a 401k. However, I also don't make that much money, and I've had to become reliant on my parents for some things.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Last year I read a few books in the related topic of decluttering life by having much less, as well as rejecting commercialism. The books shared a common theme of obtaining peace by becoming free. The book on anti-commercialism was pretty insightful.... we buy what we don't need to fill any number of holes in our lives, joining tribes of various types, each with its own set of consumer goals.

Breaking free of artificial life and engaging in real life becomes life affirming and empowering.

I really need to work more on this, but I really wish I could get to the place of extreme frugality and enjoying life free of these burdens. ...
 

uumlau

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I endorse a lot of the kinds of advice I see advocated in those links, but I think that to a degree they are too extreme if you adopt everything.

The real lesson is that everything is a trade-off. Everything. Other ways of saying this are that everything has a cost, or there is no such thing as a free lunch.

The things I like about what I read in sites like those is the focus on PAYING ATTENTION to what the trade-offs are. Once you do that, the rest of the advice is redundant.

What I find extreme is focusing on particular ways of dealing with finances, advocating kind of a minimalist ideal. For some people (especially Enneagram 5s who eat this stuff up like candy and can often do the spartan lifestyle very well) this is great advice. For the rest of us who don't enjoy all of that, we need to CHOOSE how we pay for things in a conscious way, but not necessarily adopt every single practice.

For instance, I heartily agree with living close to work, with paying for your car in cash (if that means you spend $5k or less on a used car, so be it), not paying for cable TV, the overall sense of anticonsumerism and just not spending money on shit that you don't need. Those things are doable by most people even in the poorest of circumstances.

However, I'm perfectly happy to accept certain costs that don't seem to be OK with people writing that advice (hence the "extreme" part). I have a mortgage, BUT I found a house that fit my specifications for a reasonable price, I paid 20% down (not something ridiculous), and 10 years later I refinanced it to a 15 year mortgage, saving me $60k in the long run. So far all my cars have been leased or had loans, but my next one won't be, and only my first care (a very cheap one) had a sucky loan that made it cost almost twice its retail price, since I had no credit but needed the car for driving to work. I will PAY for plumbers and electricians to install hardware and gas appliances, because I want the job done right by an expert, not by my own half-assed guesswork. I have a NICE internet connection because that is what I want. While I see the potential for going into real estate investment and/or rental income, there is a reason why not everyone does that, and certain things about the economy wouldn't work if everyone did (or you get a housing bubble ... hmmm ...).

It's all a trade-off. Calculate how much things will cost you in REAL terms, and then make the call. Sometimes the correct action IS to go into debt. Businesses wouldn't be able to function very well without incurring debt, as income can be sporadic over the year even as the bills are constant. Debt is a measure of risk. If you are borrowing a lot of money or you are only offered a high rate of interest, you are taking a HUGE risk, which is bad. If it's a small amount of money, and/or the interest is low, it is usually a small risk.

So MY advice to you would be to set your own priorities. If the idea of DIY appeals to you (in ways that it doesn't to me), go for it: it's a strength you can take advantage of. But on the other hand if the shows on cable TV help to make your life more fulfilling, go ahead and pay for it. Figure out what works for you, with an eye to the trade-offs. If you keep track of the trade-offs, of what things REALLY cost you in the long run, you'll be fine.
 

EJCC

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^ FWIW, I've been doing research into this for a long while, so I have a good idea of what I'm looking for. I'm just curious as to what you all are doing.
 

Santosha

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I was really into the idea of it about 2 years ago, probably watched 100 you-tube clips from people that purchased land, built their own little cabin or dwelling, set up neat growing systems, etc. The idea is still very appealing. Where I grew up, you couldn't purchase a shit-shack for under 180k. When I looked at the total amount paid on a mortgage, even a 15 year with great rates, it seemed insane to me! Debt-slaves. After paying off 2 auto loans in my 20s, (and these weren't even new) I couldn't believe how much I had paid total. And of course, unless your really smart about the make/model average depreciation, and how hard you are on vehicles, after your 5 year loan many don't have much equity. I've paid cash for my last 2 vehicles, used both times. I'm just super careful and analytical about buying vehicles notorious for hitting 300k miles, the known issues with the make/model/year and then I'll pay a well known mechanic 200 to go through it with a fine-tooth comb to identify any current potential dysfunctions. It's worked out great, and I've saved myself a 400 a month car payment and FC insurance for years. But I also don't care that much about fancy vehicles. It's all function for me.

I moved to a place where, it is not uncommon to find a property going for about 35k. They all need cosmetic work, but the bones are often good. And the idea of remodeling is super appealing to me anyway, because I enjoy that stuff and like to personalize anyway.

It's very tempting. I could prob have the cash saved for full purchase in 2:years. Spend the next year remodeling. Mortgage/rent free is awesome.

The problem is, I'm living about 2k miles away from my immediate roots. Not sure if I really want to keep that distance. I'd be able to travel back alot, though.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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What is ERE? - Early Retirement Extreme Wiki

Anyone trying to live like this, or in any other way that practices "extreme frugality", Mustachianism, anti-consumerist self-reliant living, etc? If so, how? Any recommendations? General feedback?

I've been starting to ease into it over the past year or so -- slowly but surely. The resources I've been using:
- Mr. Money Mustache
- "Your Money or Your Life: 9 Steps to Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Achieving Financial Independence" by Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez

My mother (ISTJ) has lived this way for over 30 years. Most people would have thought she was poor. She is not. She is a millionaire at 50 because of this lifestyle. LBYM is everything. She was raised by a parent who went through the Great Depression and this was drilled into her from early on.

She is now spending some of that hard earned money renovating her current home and building another one. Because of her investments, the home she built? She broke even on.

I personally could not live like how she did but I did take certain things to heart.
 

ceecee

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So MY advice to you would be to set your own priorities. If the idea of DIY appeals to you (in ways that it doesn't to me), go for it: it's a strength you can take advantage of. But on the other hand if the shows on cable TV help to make your life more fulfilling, go ahead and pay for it. Figure out what works for you, with an eye to the trade-offs. If you keep track of the trade-offs, of what things REALLY cost you in the long run, you'll be fine.

I agree with this as well as knowing what the tradeoffs are. We don't have a car payment. My husband has a 2015 Impala that his job provides, my suv was bought with cash and we have a very handy 1999 GMC truck. We have a mortgage but we refinanced and knocked it down to 15 years and $72k less too.

We both work from home (my husband travels some) so, no regular commutes. No CC debt (we pay them off every month) and almost all my salary goes to retirement/investing. We do have a boat (cash) because we live on a lake and reasonable fun stuff is good.

We do have cable and always will. We're sports and HBO series and shows people. But that's the tradeoff part - we save a lot with the vehicles, we can have cable/internet/phone services that are a bit higher. Same with DIY. We do a lot of those projects but you have to know when to call in the pros too. My ENFJ is handy, and our sons are an electrician and plumper, respectively, so we have a big advantage when it comes the house and DIY.

Food can be a big cost, especially when all our kids are home but I spend around $250-300/mo. for everything. We get sides of beef, lamb and chicken from a local farm twice a year. I can and freeze and I grow a good sized garden. I use some coupons and store specials, I also cook ahead. I think food is a place where you can cut a lot of spending simply by planning ahead and smart shopping.

Decluttering is one of the most satisfying things to me. I'm not a strict minimalist but I'm very organized and time management is a big deal to me. I suppose all this stuff could be empowering but I never see it like that. I look at it like I'm too lazy to not be this way - I don't want to have to look for anything.
 

Mole

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Scarcity and Plenty

Starting with the Western Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, the West and other prosperous societies have overcome scarcity.

Scarcity has been the condition of most societies for 200,000 years, and indeed modern economics is based on the doctrine of scarcity.

So just when we are creating societies of plenty and putting frugality out to pasture, we start to feel guilty, we have a guilt neurosis that stops us from enjoying the plenty around us, and so we valourise frugality and shrive ourselves so we can carry out the manners and morals of scarcity.

So what we need and what we have got is the therapeutic society that changes our psyche from the mindset of scarcity to the mindset of plenty.
 

Thalassa

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That must be the TJ version of minimalism or tree house living.

I'm totally into DIY, natural products and while I still enjoy some delightful meals, the vegan monk lentils and rice or oatmeal with walnuts, and a pbj, and apple will carry you through the days. I'm actually really fond of my lentils or beans, when I make them right.

It also includes (fun) thrift or vintage shopping rather than buying new, sitting in dark rooms (hasn't been a problem for me since 13-14 years old), and holding on to electronic equipment until it rots. Or simply not participating in xyz.

My sister in WV is into catching rain water and so forth.

I absolutely encourage this lifestyle, with a splurge for pizza or wine here and there. Whatever your personal reasons.
 

Thalassa

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Starting with the Western Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, the West and other prosperous societies have overcome scarcity.

Scarcity has been the condition of most societies for 200,000 years, and indeed modern economics is based on the doctrine of scarcity.

So just when we are creating societies of plenty and putting frugality out to pasture, we start to feel guilty, we have a guilt neurosis that stops us from enjoying the plenty around us, and so we valourise frugality and shrive ourselves so we can carry out the manners and morals of scarcity.

So what we need and what we have got is the therapeutic society that changes our psyche from the mindset of scarcity to the mindset of plenty.

Except that the world is ending and people are starving.
 

Mole

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Except that the world is ending and people are starving.

C'mon, in one country alone, China, over the last 20 years, 250 million people have moved from poverty to plenty.

And although a small number of people are hungry in war zones, and in some drought affected areas, agriculture is booming across the world.

And oil is so plentiful the price is falling below cost.

And the end of the world is an eschatological fantasy, that feeds a neurotic fear of plenty.

So if people are starving, they are starving for love and understanding.
 

uumlau

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I think Mole is correct (OMG, did I actually type that? ;) ).

The quick way to classify it is "first world problems". When people have plenty, behaviors that made a lot of sense when scarcity was the rule start being dropped. The problem is that they're dropped entirely, as opposed to by degree.

If you're just starting out, you have to live as if scarcity is real, because in spite of your world having plenty of stuff, you haven't earned it yet. Worse, if you grew up with in a good home with plenty of furniture and food and stuff and never wanted for anything, you don't realize that your family didn't START OUT that way. It's what you're used to, and it's easy to try to duplicate that standard of living. Except that standard of living required two middle-aged adults earning money at near the peak of their careers (especially so near the time when you moved out).

So aside from student loan debt (which is its own huge problem!), young adults out on their own for the first time are very likely to try to live at that accustomed standard that they cannot afford at all. These bad habits can continue well into middle age and beyond.

Hence, learning habits of frugality (if not "extreme" frugality) can go very far. Personally, I think this stuff should be taught in high school. I had maybe one class that came close (it was called Home Economics, of all things, not personal finance).

When I try to put things in perspective for younger friends of mine, I tell them that I did not own a car until I was 30, and I did not buy a house until I was 40 (ten years ago, now). If I'd tried to do either of those any earlier, I would be much poorer now, having paid even more interest on unnecessary debt at a time when I could barely afford anything.
 

Santosha

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Well, I should of probably mentioned in my prior post that, the motivation for me to be frugal in certain financial areas, like home expense/food/vehicle isn't out of fear or thinking I need to deprive myself now for a greater security down the line, though that's an extra bonus.

I simply want to free up my money to live. I know many people who, because of the debt they bite off, don't have much cash to do things they enjoy. I like to travel, to have money for concerts and events, art projects, various classes offered at the local collages, etc. It is a shame to deny these thing to the self or family so someone can live in a big, fancy house and drive new cars. It is a shame that so many people have to stay in jobs they really don't enjoy, that take much of their time, to afford these standards.

So minimalism on in way can create plenty in others. It's about priority.

Also, just the process of DIY can be extremely rewarding, confidence building, increasing knowledge.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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I don't buy shit, except things that will last a while that I can get good use out of. Buying new clothes is painful for me.
 

Mole

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I think Mole is correct (OMG, did I actually type that?

Don't get carried away with yourself, Mole may be a little shortsighted but we are also very persistent. For no matter what the topic, Mole sees it through the lens of the psyche.

And considering that most of the psyche remains hidden, it is no wonder you are surprised to find Mole is correct.

And if you were not surprised by Mole, and if Mole did not corner you into cognitive dissonance, if Mole did not trigger your ego defences, Mole would not be carrying out the time honoured role of generations of Moles.

Well may you say, OMG, as Mole leads you by the hand into your next epiphany.
 

uumlau

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OMG = "Oh Mole the Great!"
 

Chrysanthe

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don't read this just look at the cool pictures below: I've always loved the idea of living frugally as much as I've loved the complete opposite.... I either wanna live in a shitty ass apartment or van and eat garlic bread, eggs, and fries everyday, or save up to construct the most fabulous fantasy themed castle in the middle of nowhere with a dungeon a garden a massive bathing room and everything!~ Anything in between is a sign of giving up on my desire to fulfill either extreme and just doesn't feel satisfying to me, that and actual houses are boring to me unless they are... not built like a typical american home, as in, something made of mud brick or maybe inside of a grassy hill... something beautiful and worth the extra money. But considering my lack of work ethic, I think it'd be best if I went for the cheap life so I can work less. :p

>What I'd love... is to buy a bus (if that much space is needed... I guess a van would be okay?) completely reliant on electricity, and remodel it to have all the comforts of a home without all that unnecessary, cold and dead space. (I LOVE clutter and spaces dense with objects, as it gives off positive energy, making it feel so much more comfortable to live in.)
do you feel the positive bus vibes photo compilation:
School-Bus-Converted-Into-Mobile-Home-Interior-View-2-630x400.jpg

more photos:
 
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